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Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 20 2012,13:10) BY TELLING PEOPLE THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN PAUL AND BE TRUTHFULL
I did not say that I do not believe in Paul, T, I said that, due to the fact that people twist his words, including translators (i have seen it) then I prefer to concentrate on what I do know rather than to risk being a 'twister'.I quote quite a lot of Paul often.
———————–
Have you ever got into a debate with a Pauline believer who quotes scriptures of Paul and 'discounts' Jesus' words? Well I have. They are the ones who believe that the 'law was “done away with”.
If you do not understand something, do not go there, simple as that!
God bless.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2012,13:47) Quote (2besee @ Dec. 19 2012,03:51) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) And FINALLY, are you suggesting that YHVH changed His name to “Jesus”? NO!!! Jesus means YAH SAVES.
Hi 2B,There are many things I wish to address concerning your latest posts – such as Jesus being begotten when he was raised from the dead. (1 John 4:9-10 proves that is not the case, but we can talk about that another time.)
Right now, since your time is limited, I'll try to stay on topic and be brief.
You have just stated in the quote box above that YHWH did not change His name to “Jesus”. You also stated:
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 19 2012,04:09) The name to believe in is not YHVH or Jehovah, but Jesus — as the Scriptures say. I agree with both of these statements. Now, let's align those statements with the words of John 1……………
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word………….John is speaking about the Word, right?
2 He was with God in the beginning.
The pronoun “He” refers to the Word, right?
3 Through him all things were made…….
The pronoun “him” refers to the Word, right?
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Still talking about the Word, right?
9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Still talking about the Word, right?
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Still talking about the Word, right?
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
All these pronouns are still talking about the Word, right?
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
And the pronouns in verse 12 are STILL talking about the Word, right?
So 2B, WHOSE NAME are we to believe in? According to John 1:12, we are to believe in the name of “the Word”, right? And what was it you just said?
The name to believe in is……… Jesus — as the Scriptures say.
2B, the very words you yourself posted testify that the one called “the Word” in John 1 is the very one called “Jesus” elsewhere in scripture.
Hi Mike, I am sorry about flooding this thread at the moment, just have lots to catch up on!Okay. I was thinking about this (and noted it on my notepad):
'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.'The light in John 1:1 was coming into the world and the world was made through him (God ) but the world knew him not.
We know that the light is GOD because john said in 1.John…
'This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.”
“If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
but if we walk in the light, as he (God) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.'The name which we are to believe in is Jesus, or properly translated Yahshua, which means Yah Saves. The light (God the Father) was coming into the world to speak through Jesus the man, and His name was YAH SAVES…God saves. It is in the name and the meaning to the name which we are to believe in…Yah Saves.
So that makes sense to me…
And then I Googled 'Yahshua' and stumbled across the following which I will quote…. Cannot say that i agree with every single piece of it, but mostly I do…tell me what you think…
YAHSHUA–In His Name–What Does It Mean?
One of the most trite and worn-out expressions in the English language is “in His name.” We are to “do all in His name,” but what does that really mean? We have uttered that phrase or a variation of it like, “In Jesus’ name” or “In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” But is that all there is to it?Just to use that phrase as an incantation or magic words to get answers to our prayers?
No. Profound meaning is hidden in this phrase; we must dig deep to find it.Now let us investigate and study these three words in a new light. “In His name…” We’ve got to go in, inside, within the true name. He is pointing us to go into His name, but it has to be into His Hebrew name, Yahshua, and extract the meaning from it.
His name Yahshua means, “Yah is salvation” or “Yah is Savior.” But to all who received him, who believed in His name, He gave power to become the children of God. John 1:12, RSV. Here, “receiving Him” and “believing in His name” are synonymous.
A Message in His Name to Be Believed
“Believing in His name” implies that there is a message to be believed, a truth inherent in His name. We have seen that Hebrew names are prophetical. We have seen that the Savior was named Yahshua because “he shall save His people from their sins.” And Yahshua means “Yah is Savior.” So what is the message contained within His name? That message is “Yah is the Savior.”
“Believing in His name…” The children receive the Spirit by believing in what His name means (by believing in His name). We believe the meaning of His name—that Yahweh or Yah, the Eternal Spirit, came down to earth and poured His essence into a specially set apart human form who would become the sacrifice for the sins of mankind—so that mankind could take on His spiritual nature.
Listen to the Spirit speak through the prophet Isaiah: For I am Yahweh thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour…I, I am Yahweh, and besides Me there is no savior…Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. Isa. 43:3, 11; 45:15.
Yes, Yah did hide Himselfwell in a flesh body some 2000 years ago. But He makes it very clear from the above passages in Isaiah that He, Yahweh,is the Savior; He is the Creator. The apostle John makes it very clear that the Spirit-filled human flesh body that he had walked with for three and a half years did the creating. In the beginning was the Word…All things were made by him; and w
ithout him was not any thing made that was made…He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not…And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…John 1:1, 3, 10, 14.Believing What His Name Means
There is no contradiction here. Yah did the creating, the forming, the redeeming and the saving. And Yah, clothed in human flesh, took the name “Yahshua,” Yah-Is-Savior. The very name of the Messiah points to the fact that it is the Father Yahweh who is doing the saving. Yah was in that vessel, the Messiah, “reconciling the world unto Himself.” The Spirit, Yah, pours Himself into His temple and works out of it to the world. Yahweh in Yahshua of Nazareth is the Son.
When a person believes in the name of Yahshua, he is believing what that name means—that Yah is the Savior in human form. In fact, the act of believing in the name of Yahshua is a miniature of the Creator’s plan of kingdom redemption.
If one has really received Him, that person will have believed in His name, which is to say, will have believed that the Father Yah was in human form, and that combination, Yahshua, is bringing salvation to the world.
Believing in Him Is Believing in His Name
He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 3:18. When one does not believe in the Messiah, he is not believing in the meaning of His name. For He said, “He that rejects Me, rejects Him that sent Me.” If you reject the Son, you are rejecting the Father that dwells within the Son, for that is exactly where the Father Yahweh is. “Know ye not that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?” He asked.
The unbeliever in the Messiah is already judged for one reason: he has not believed in the Name of Yahshua, which is saying that Yah was not in him, saving mankind through His death, burial, and resurrection. Not believing in Messiah’s name, then, is equal to not receiving the Spirit of the Creator.
Not believing in the meaning of the name of Yahshua is equal to rejecting the light that is come into the world, and cleaving unto darkness, saying, I have no need for Yah in human form to save me (see John 3:19).
The phrase “in the name,” then, has profound meaning and carries a weighty message. First, we cannot believe in His name if we do not know His name. If we seek, He will reveal to us His true name. This knowledge, in turn, is an important key that will unlock the door that is keeping us from continuing our journey down the road to immortality.
The Savior’s name is Yahshua, Yah-Is-Savior. To believe in His name is to believe what His name actually means: Yahweh, the self-existent One that cried through Isaiah, who appeared and spoke to Noah, Abraham, Moses, and many others, offered up His perfect human incarnation and became the Author of eternal salvation for His people.
Kenneth Wayne Hancock.
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 20 2012,14:31) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 20 2012,13:10) BY TELLING PEOPLE THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN PAUL AND BE TRUTHFULL
I did not say that I do not believe in Paul, T, I said that, due to the fact that people twist his words, including translators (i have seen it) then I prefer to concentrate on what I do know rather than to risk being a 'twister'.I quote quite a lot of Paul often.
———————–
Have you ever got into a debate with a Pauline believer who quotes scriptures of Paul and 'discounts' Jesus' words? Well I have. They are the ones who believe that the 'law was “done away with”.
If you do not understand something, do not go there, simple as that!
God bless.
are we saved by debating ,or having knowledge beyond what his written in scriptures??? or by our own views and interpretation of the scriptures
or is it BY BELIEVING IN THE SCRIPTURES AS THE WORDS OF GOD TO US
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 20 2012,14:15) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 20 2012,17:27) The Spirit is the Son of God in the same way Wisdom is said to be his Daughter. Scripture uses personification in teaching and once personified both the Spirit and Wisdom can be said to be sired by God because they come from him. Hi Kerwin. So when it says in parts of scripture such as in Paul — that the world was made through 'HIM', then we can understand that to mean 'through the Holy Spirit' of God, but it has been personified to be 'him'. Do I understand that much?
How do you interpret John 1:1-5:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God;
all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.Do you understand the 'Word' to be the 'spoken word of God' of the Holy Spirit, or both?
2beesee,John is most likely speaking about the actual Word of God; though he personalizes it as you hypothesize. The Word is the things of God and God “embodies” those things and reveals them through the Spirit.
The Word is God as he “embodies” it. The Word is with God since his Spirit that is with him reveals it. It is also with him just as it is with the Spirit in the account of creation.
That same account teaches us that all things were created through God's Word.
Jesus quoted Scripture and stated men do not live on bread alone but on the very Word of God.
That life that is in the Teachings of God is the light of man which shines in the darkness of this world. Those that love darkness do not understand it. That is part of what Jesus taught Nicodemus.
Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2012,00:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2012,11:13) I'm not now, nor have I ever argued that Thomas was talking to Jesus and God. Why do your posts suggest you are “correcting me” and challenging me about this issue, when I already AGREE WITH YOU about it?
you said it's your guess about john 20.28 that says OMG
No jammin,I said that is most likely why the NWT translators used “God” in 20:28 – because THEY think Thomas is saying, “OMG! My Lord!”
Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2012,00:16) thomas said to christ he is his LORD AND GOD
As I said in BIG, BOLD letters three posts ago, I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS!Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2012,00:16) sorry mike but this only proves that you and the rest who believe about OMG in john 20.28 are false teachers.
But I DON'T believe that, jammin. How many times can I say it? And how many times will you “correct me” about something I already agree with you on?Perhaps you need a rest, jammin.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2012,21:48) Mike, Quote 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. Still talking about the Word, right?
No, it is not.
John 1:4
King James Version (KJV)4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
The true Light is in the Word, and is not the Word.
Hmmm…………John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life.”
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world.”To me, these scriptures completely line up with John 1:4 and 1:9. At the very least, they confirm that Jesus not only had life in him, but was also called “the light” – as per John 1:4.
So Kerwin, who exactly do you think the true light that was coming into the world is? Before you answer, consider the following:
John 1
6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.
8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
In verse 7, we learn that John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concering the true light that was coming into the world. And who did John the Baptist come to testify concerning?
John 5
32 There is another who testifies about me, and I know that his testimony about me is true.33 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John.”
It is clear that the one about whom John was sent to testify was none other than Jesus. It is confirmed here:
Acts 19:4
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”As for John 1:8 that I posted above, notice the words, He himself was not the light…….
Do you really suppose this “light”, that was coming into the world, was God Himself, and the Apostle John had to clarify for us that John the Baptist was not God Almighty?
So Kerwin, here's what I'd like to know from you (and 2B, who had a similar answer to John 1:9)………
1. Do you agree that Jesus IS called “light” in the scriptures?
2. Do you agree that Jesus DOES have life in him?
3. Do you agree that John the Baptist came to testify concerning this particular “light”?
4. Do you agree that the “light” John the Baptist came to testify about was, in fact, Jesus Christ?
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 20 2012,02:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2012,13:47)
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word………….John is speaking about the Word, right?
2 He was with God in the beginning.
The pronoun “He” refers to the Word, right?
3 Through him all things were made…….
The pronoun “him” refers to the Word, right?
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Still talking about the Word, right?
9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Still talking about the Word, right?
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Still talking about the Word, right?
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
All these pronouns are still talking about the Word, right?
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
And the pronouns in verse 12 are STILL talking about the Word, right?
So 2B, WHOSE NAME are we to believe in? According to John 1:12, we are to believe in the name of “the Word”, right? And what was it you just said?
The name to believe in is……… Jesus — as the Scriptures say.
2B, the very words you yourself posted testify that the one called “the Word” in John 1 is the very one called “Jesus” elsewhere in scripture.
Mike, I am not too sure on this, I will need some time, okay. The answer is there, but I need to meditate on it more first before I speak!We know that the light is GOD because john said in 1.John…
Hi 2B,The post right above this one is for both you and Kerwin. (And Gene, and Ed, and Marty, etc.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2012,09:56) Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2012,00:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2012,11:13) I'm not now, nor have I ever argued that Thomas was talking to Jesus and God. Why do your posts suggest you are “correcting me” and challenging me about this issue, when I already AGREE WITH YOU about it?
you said it's your guess about john 20.28 that says OMG
No jammin,I said that is most likely why the NWT translators used “God” in 20:28 – because THEY think Thomas is saying, “OMG! My Lord!”
Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2012,00:16) thomas said to christ he is his LORD AND GOD
As I said in BIG, BOLD letters three posts ago, I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS!Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2012,00:16) sorry mike but this only proves that you and the rest who believe about OMG in john 20.28 are false teachers.
But I DON'T believe that, jammin. How many times can I say it? And how many times will you “correct me” about something I already agree with you on?Perhaps you need a rest, jammin.
you are confused.
so now you believe that Christ is LORD AND GOD.
but before you do not believe he is GOD and Lord.mike i think you need some vitamins
John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
The word “granted” or “he gave” teaches us that the Son was given to have live in himself.
In John 1:14 we are told that the Word, and the life therein, was made flesh.
It seems that the Son that Jesus speaks of in the third person is actually himself as I do not believe that God granted that the Spirit has life in itself as it is God's Spirit.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2012,02:22) are we saved by debating ,or having knowledge beyond what his written in scriptures??? or by our own views and interpretation of the scriptures or is it BY BELIEVING IN THE SCRIPTURES AS THE WORDS OF GOD TO US
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.John 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be you called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
T, the CREATOR OF THE WORLD (think about it………………………..) spoke through Jesus Christ. If my focus is more on the word of Jesus, then so be it.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2012,05:58) 2beesee, John is most likely speaking about the actual Word of God; though he personalizes it as you hypothesize. The Word is the things of God and God “embodies” those things and reveals them through the Spirit.
The Word is God as he “embodies” it. The Word is with God since his Spirit that is with him reveals it. It is also with him just as it is with the Spirit in the account of creation.
That same account teaches us that all things were created through God's Word.
Jesus quoted Scripture and stated men do not live on bread alone but on the very Word of God.
That life that is in the Teachings of God is the light of man which shines in the darkness of this world. Those that love darkness do not understand it. That is part of what Jesus taught Nicodemus.
Kerwin I understand, thank you.Hi Mike.
Quote Hmmm………… John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life.”
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world.”Let us take the words that you quoted:
John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life.”
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
—————-
*John 6:63 It is the spirit that vivifies; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.*
Mike………You have e not come to understand the Spirit if GOD was (IN) the Flesh man Jesus Doing (ITS) Worked through Him and that Spirit was the Father , He came to His “OWN CREATION” into the world and the world, HIS OWN CREATION, knew him Not. You still do not understand that God was truly (IN) Jesus . God is Spirit and can indwell a person and even Speak through him. Remember when Jesus told us if we were brought before a ruler not to meditate on what we would say, because it would be given us that very hour and it would not be you speaking but the Spirit of you Father speaking through you God the Father was truly “IN” Jesus actively doing his works
God and His Spirit (intellect) and words are One and the same thing. His was 'in' Jesus reconciling the world unto himself. God is the light that enlightens every man that comes into the world. He alone is the true light and this Light was “IN” Jesus and can Be “IN” us also. Jesus was not that Light that was “IN” Him, but he yielded to it and followed it and passed it on to us all.
Mike you view of a “Preexistent” Jesus has caused you to not to comprehend this , God considered Jesus' “body” a Temple he could indwell or haven't you read where it say the spirit “earnestly” desires us and That we need to ask for it and when it knock we open the Door of our hearts unto it and how it will come in a sup with us. It is the Christos (anointing Spirit) that is the hope of our Glory we are told. It was this same Spirit that followed the Children of Israel in the wilderness and that was not Jesus that followed them Mike it was GOD'S Spirit and it spoke to us through the prophets and did manyu signs and wonders and in these latter day spoke through a Son , Jesus. IMO
God and His words which are spirit are one and the same thing Mike. It can all be in us hust as it is and was in Jesus . IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2012,11:26) 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[/color] In verse 7, we learn that John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning the true light that was coming into the world. And who did John the Baptist come to testify concerning?
Mike………..That light was coming into the world, it was not there yet but Jesus was there right. so when did it come into the world ? when Jesus was baptized at the Jordan and received it (the light or Holy Spirit of GOD) came into Him and it was then in the Flesh, the flesh man Jesus from then on. If you had noticed John said it was “COMING”, you could realize it was not yet there, right? But it was comming in that day.Mike another point about the saying ofthe voice from heaven that said this day i have begotten you as meaning Jesus berth or his baptizem or his resurection from the grave.
All of the was in the term this day why? because to God a Day is as a thousand Years and a thousand years is as a Day. So the time period mentioned there may not have been a 24 Hr day, but a paticluare time in history that all these thing took place. Jesus Berth, His Baptizem, His resurection from the dead were all in the term “ this day So you can see 2besee was right about His resurection as meaning begotten from the dead.
peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………….gene
Hi Mike. As has been shown, 'He was the word chosen by translators when it could just as easily have been translated as 'this or it'. John 1.1 shows the word to be the Logos which is 'word, speech, divine utterance' in Greek. So this fact should be taken into consideration when understanding John 1:1.
Even so, if you understand 'He.' to mean the Holy Spirit and Word which is spoken from the one God, then it does make sense.
'He.' is God's own Word and God's own Holy Spirit coming into the World, and the World was made through this, as has been shown to us in Genesis 1:1 'The Spirit of God was moving….. and God Said let there be light…..' (Speech and Spirit).
Logos, – λόγος, ου, ὁ, a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.
this – houtos, οὗτος, αὕτη, τοῦτο, this, he, she, it,As for the Word of God and the Spirit of God – it is clearly obvious from Scripture that this Word and this Spirit is GOD, it is of the same God. Just as our Word and our own Spirit is of us and nobody else.
Why it is personified and called a Son is not understood by me. But, as I was shown….Flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit. How can we understand this when we are flesh?
Quote So 2B, WHOSE NAME are we to believe in? According to John 1:12, we are to believe in the name of “the Word”, right? And what was it you just said? The name to believe in is……… Jesus — as the Scriptures say.
2B, the very words you yourself posted testify that the one called “the Word” in John 1 is the very one called “Jesus” elsewhere in scripture.
His name WILL BE CALLED Jahshua (Yah saves). Yah was saving the world through the Son (Yahshua) because His spirit was in Him.
The eternal Spirit came into the World.
The eternal Spirit was in the World in the beginning.
And the eternal Spirit is here now, still.Amen?
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2012,17:20) John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
The word “granted” or “he gave” teaches us that the Son was given to have live in himself.
In John 1:14 we are told that the Word, and the life therein, was made flesh.
It seems that the Son that Jesus speaks of in the third person is actually himself as I do not believe that God granted that the Spirit has life in itself as it is God's Spirit.
True Kerwin.Quote (2besee @ Dec. 22 2012,09:07) His name WILL BE CALLED Jahshua (Yah saves). Yah was saving the world through the Son (Yahshua) because His spirit was in Him. The eternal Spirit came into the World.
The eternal Spirit was in the World in the beginning.
And the eternal Spirit is here now, still.Amen?
Mike …….This is 100% totally accurate . I believe you are comprehending these things brother. What 2besee has said here is the truth in its purest form brother. When Thomas said My Lord “and” My God He did not mean “my Lord God” Mike but that he had come to see that Jesus was his lord Present there, and The ETERNAL GOD was also Present , anothers words Two Spirits in ONE BODY < God the Fathers "and" Jesus' .That voice that said destory this tempel (body) and in three days I (GOD speaking first person) Shall raise “IT” (that Body) up, was God the Father Mike
Mike if you will dump that Preexistences false teaching I beleieve you will clearly see these thing brother. Mike i pray that God will Grant you to see and understand these thing it will bring great Joy to you My Brother.
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
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