In the Beginning

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2013,04:50)

Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2013,15:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2013,00:46) So you will seek understanding that allows you to DISALLOW for Paul's words?   Better to just believe Paul, Kerwin. Mike, You have added the qualification of outward to form………… I didn't add it, Kerwin.  It is what the word “morphe” means: 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance Both definitions of the word describe an OUTWARD appearance.  And if the word Paul used means “external appearance”, and Paul did in fact use that word, then who are we to argue with him? Kerwin, all BEINGS are also created, right?  But God is the exception, right?  So can't the body of God also be an exception to your own made up rule that all bodies are created?

Mike,

Your source missed this part:

Quote

properly, form (outward expression) that embodies essential (inner) substance so that the form is in complete harmony with the inner essence.

So you have the outside of the cup that embodies the inside of the cup so that both the outside and inside are in complete harmony.

[mikeboll64]

Yep. But we're still talking about the OUTSIDE of a cup, aren't we?

[mikeboll64]

Kerwin, are all BEINGS created? Is God?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2013,09:19)

Yep.  But we're still talking about the OUTSIDE of a cup, aren't we?

Mike,

What we are talking of is the fruits(outside of the cup) and the vine(inside of the cup) both in harmony unlike the Pharisees who bore fruit that looked good from a vine that was evil.  Jesus rebuked them and said clean the inside of the cup and the outside will be cleaned.

Trinitarian experts know this, though they  seem to cover it up by flowery and misleading language.  For example Pulpit states:

Quote

…, taking at the same time the form (μορφήν as in Ver. 6, the essential attributes) of a servant, literally, of a slave.

Gil in more details states:

Quote

and took upon him the form of a servant; this also was voluntary; he “took upon him”, was not obliged, or forced to be in the form of a servant; he appeared as one in human nature, and was really such; a servant to his Father, who chose, called, sent, upheld, and regarded him as a servant; and a very prudent, diligent, and faithful one he was unto him: and he was also a servant to his people, and ministered to men; partly by preaching the Gospel to them, and partly by working miracles, healing their diseases, and going about to do good, both to the bodies and souls of men; and chiefly by obtaining eternal redemption for his chosen ones, by being made sin and a curse for them; which though a very toilsome and laborious piece of service, yet as he cheerfully engaged in it, he diligently attended it, until he had finished it: so he was often prophesied of as a servant, in Isaiah 42:1, in which several places he is called in the Targum, , “my servant the Messiah”: put these two together, “the form of God”, and “the form of a servant”, and admire the amazing stoop!

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2013,09:20)

Kerwin, are all BEINGS created?  Is God?

Mike,

All beings with either a heavenly or earthly body are created. God is not created and does not have a body. God created all the universe, even the expanding media upon which he placed the the Sun, earth, moon, stars, and other celestial objects and filled it with the vacuum of space. He also created the heavens in a like manner; though their design may be quite different.

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

“Spiritual body” doesn't say one word about flesh.  There is no scripture that says spirits who dwell in heaven, like angels, have “spiritual FLESH” bodies.  And there ARE at least two teachings in scripture (one of them from Jesus himself) that make it clear that flesh cannot enter or inherit the kingdom of God.

I have a body and it is flesh. My current body is not Spiritual for it is strives with the Spirit.  There is a flesh body that does not strive with the Spirit.  The two flesh bodies are not the same, even as Paul wrote “all flesh is not the same” and gave examples that all bodies are not the same.

Quote

And the reason Paul said all flesh is not the same was to give an example to his teaching that all BODIES are not the same.

I see it as the opposite as not all bodies are flesh but all flesh are bodies. If Paul wanted to make the exclusive point that all bodies are not the same then instead of going misleading subset of bodies he simply could have stated “all bodies are not the same”.

——-

In 2 Corinthians Paul declares he is not sure whether flesh did not enter heaven while previously he was sure flesh and blood could not inherit the kingdom of God.  It is clear that flesh can enter heaven or at  the the least Paul does not know whether it can or not it can at a time as late as the second letter to the Corinthians.  Both Jesus' words in John and Paul's in 1st Corinthians come before Paul's words in 2nd Corinthians.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2013,11:26)

Mike, Quote “Spiritual body” doesn't say one word about flesh.  There is no scripture that says spirits who dwell in heaven, like angels, have “spiritual FLESH” bodies.  And there ARE at least two teachings in scripture (one of them from Jesus himself) that make it clear that flesh cannot enter or inherit the kingdom of God. I have a body and it is flesh. My current body is not Spiritual for it is strives with the Spirit.  There is a flesh body that does not strive with the Spirit.  The two flesh bodies are not the same, even as Paul wrote “all flesh is not the same” and gave examples that all bodies are not the same. Quote And the reason Paul said all flesh is not the same was to give an example to his teaching that all BODIES are not the same. I see it as the opposite as not all bodies are flesh but all flesh are bodies. If Paul wanted to make the exclusive point that all bodies are not the same then instead of going misleading subset of bodies he simply could have stated “all bodies are not the same”. ——- In 2 Corinthians Paul declares he is not sure whether flesh did not enter heaven while previously he was sure flesh and blood could not inherit the kingdom of God.  It is clear that flesh can enter heaven or at  the the least Paul does not know whether it can or not it can at a time as late as the second letter to the Corinthians.  Both Jesus' words in John and Paul's in 1st Corinthians come before Paul's words in 2nd Corinthians.

Kerwin………Good post brother.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

[kerwin]

Quote

Nowhere are the Sethites called the ‘the sons of God.’

It is true by the letter of Genesis 5 but the spirit states:

Genesis 5:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

About Jesus' line  it is written:

Luke 3:38
King James Version (KJV)

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Unlike Seth's line which Scripture starts with God, Cain's line starts with Cain.

Genesis 4:17
King James Version (KJV)

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

At the time Seth fathered Enos it is written: “then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.”  It is not written in Cain's line even though Cain's line is written first.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2013,06:26)

Mike, Quote “Spiritual body” doesn't say one word about flesh.  There is no scripture that says spirits who dwell in heaven, like angels, have “spiritual FLESH” bodies.  And there ARE at least two teachings in scripture (one of them from Jesus himself) that make it clear that flesh cannot enter or inherit the kingdom of God. I have a body and it is flesh. My current body is not Spiritual for it is strives with the Spirit.  There is a flesh body that does not strive with the Spirit.  The two flesh bodies are not the same, even as Paul wrote “all flesh is not the same” and gave examples that all bodies are not the same. Quote And the reason Paul said all flesh is not the same was to give an example to his teaching that all BODIES are not the same. I see it as the opposite as not all bodies are flesh but all flesh are bodies. If Paul wanted to make the exclusive point that all bodies are not the same then instead of going misleading subset of bodies he simply could have stated “all bodies are not the same”. ——- In 2 Corinthians Paul declares he is not sure whether flesh did not enter heaven while previously he was sure flesh and blood could not inherit the kingdom of God.  It is clear that flesh can enter heaven or at  the the least Paul does not know whether it can or not it can at a time as late as the second letter to the Corinthians.  Both Jesus' words in John and Paul's in 1st Corinthians come before Paul's words in 2nd Corinthians.

Kerwin

Quote

It is clear that flesh can enter heaven

Christ says that the flesh stands for nothing ;it is men that follows the rudiments of the flesh ;the body of men contains two things 1) a flesh bone structure,and a spiritual soul what is also called THE SPIRIT OF MEN, and Jesus said that we have to free our selves from corruption but the flesh his corrupted at birth by the world in which we live,so it is the spirit our soul that we have to look for and make it according to Christ ,and love God and his son above all things even our body or live ,do you understand this

the flesh body will not save us under any condition

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 02 2013,07:05)

Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2013,06:26) Mike, Quote “Spiritual body” doesn't say one word about flesh.  There is no scripture that says spirits who dwell in heaven, like angels, have “spiritual FLESH” bodies.  And there ARE at least two teachings in scripture (one of them from Jesus himself) that make it clear that flesh cannot enter or inherit the kingdom of God. I have a body and it is flesh. My current body is not Spiritual for it is strives with the Spirit.  There is a flesh body that does not strive with the Spirit.  The two flesh bodies are not the same, even as Paul wrote “all flesh is not the same” and gave examples that all bodies are not the same. Quote And the reason Paul said all flesh is not the same was to give an example to his teaching that all BODIES are not the same. I see it as the opposite as not all bodies are flesh but all flesh are bodies. If Paul wanted to make the exclusive point that all bodies are not the same then instead of going misleading subset of bodies he simply could have stated “all bodies are not the same”. ——- In 2 Corinthians Paul declares he is not sure whether flesh did not enter heaven while previously he was sure flesh and blood could not inherit the kingdom of God.  It is clear that flesh can enter heaven or at  the the least Paul does not know whether it can or not it can at a time as late as the second letter to the Corinthians.  Both Jesus' words in John and Paul's in 1st Corinthians come before Paul's words in 2nd Corinthians. Kerwin Quote It is clear that flesh can enter heaven Christ says that the flesh stands for nothing ;it is men that follows the rudiments of the flesh ;the body of men contains two things 1) a flesh bone structure,and a spiritual soul what is also called THE SPIRIT OF MEN, and Jesus said that we have to free our selves from corruption but the flesh his corrupted at birth by the world in which  we live,so it is the spirit our soul that we have to look for and make it according to Christ ,and love God and his son above all things even our body or live ,do you understand this the flesh body will not save us under any condition

T,

Flesh is subject to corruption until it is freed, Romans 8:20-21.

Flesh is but a tent for the soul and does not teach anyone righteousness, 2 Corinthians 5:1. The Spirit teach all righteousness, John 14:26.

The body is flesh, bone, and blood and the soul dwells within.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2013,07:23)

Quote (terraricca @ June 02 2013,07:05) Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2013,06:26) Mike, Quote “Spiritual body” doesn't say one word about flesh.  There is no scripture that says spirits who dwell in heaven, like angels, have “spiritual FLESH” bodies.  And there ARE at least two teachings in scripture (one of them from Jesus himself) that make it clear that flesh cannot enter or inherit the kingdom of God. I have a body and it is flesh. My current body is not Spiritual for it is strives with the Spirit.  There is a flesh body that does not strive with the Spirit.  The two flesh bodies are not the same, even as Paul wrote “all flesh is not the same” and gave examples that all bodies are not the same. Quote And the reason Paul said all flesh is not the same was to give an example to his teaching that all BODIES are not the same. I see it as the opposite as not all bodies are flesh but all flesh are bodies. If Paul wanted to make the exclusive point that all bodies are not the same then instead of going misleading subset of bodies he simply could have stated “all bodies are not the same”. ——- In 2 Corinthians Paul declares he is not sure whether flesh did not enter heaven while previously he was sure flesh and blood could not inherit the kingdom of God.  It is clear that flesh can enter heaven or at  the the least Paul does not know whether it can or not it can at a time as late as the second letter to the Corinthians.  Both Jesus' words in John and Paul's in 1st Corinthians come before Paul's words in 2nd Corinthians. Kerwin Quote It is clear that flesh can enter heaven Christ says that the flesh stands for nothing ;it is men that follows the rudiments of the flesh ;the body of men contains two things 1) a flesh bone structure,and a spiritual soul what is also called THE SPIRIT OF MEN, and Jesus said that we have to free our selves from corruption but the flesh his corrupted at birth by the world in which  we live,so it is the spirit our soul that we have to look for and make it according to Christ ,and love God and his son above all things even our body or live ,do you understand this the flesh body will not save us under any condition T, Flesh is subject to corruption until it is freed, Romans 8:20-21. Flesh is but a tent for the soul and does not teach anyone righteousness, 2 Corinthians 5:1.  The Spirit teach all righteousness, John 14:26. The body is flesh, bone, and blood and the soul dwells within.

Kerwin

so now you know that flesh does not enter the heaven,RIGHT

[2besee]

T,  most believers believe that Jesus will return in the same way that he left and that is as flesh and bone. See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself, Jesus said, Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

[Ed J]

Quote (2besee @ June 02 2013,15:26)

T,  most believers believe that Jesus will return in the same way that he left and that is as flesh and bone. See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself, Jesus said, Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

Hi 2Besee,

The Jews thought Jesus was going to physically reign as a man king as well. Looks like you share in their error.

  “When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force,
    to make him 'a man king', he departed again into a mountain (MT ZION) himself alone.” (John 6:15)

  “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” (Hebrews 13:8)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ June 02 2013,16:34)

Quote (2besee @ June 02 2013,15:26) T,  most believers believe that Jesus will return in the same way that he left and that is as flesh and bone. See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself, Jesus said, Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Hi 2Besee, The Jews thought Jesus was going to physically reign as a man king as well. Looks like you share in their error.   “When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force,     to make him 'a man king', he departed again into a mountain (MT ZION) himself alone.” (John 6:15)   “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” (Hebrews 13:8) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

“I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree:
 the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this
 day have I begotten thee.” (Psalms 2:6-7)

[2besee]

Ed J, The antichrist denies the flesh according to John.

the antichrist came from believers.

[2besee]

2 John 1:7. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Pulpit Commentary.

“Deceiver” πλάνος here means “seducer,” one who causes others to go astray. The cognate verb πλανᾷν is frequent in St. John, especially in the Revelation.Revelation 20:3, 8, 10), and commonly indicates seduction into grave error (comp. 1 John 1:8; 1 John 2:26; 1 John 3:7). The true reading ἐξῆλθον gives “are gone forth,” not “are entered” εἰσῆλθον. We cannot be sure that “are gone forth” refers to their leaving the true Church; although 1 John 2:18 inclines us to think so: it may mean no more than that they have gone abroad spreading their erroneous tenets. Just as “love not” in 1 John 3:10, 14, 15 and 1 John 4:20 is equivalent to “hate,” so “confess not” here is equivalent to “deny.” These seducers deny “Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh,” or (as the Greek may possibly mean) they deny “Jesus as Christ coming in the flesh.” The present participle ἐρχόμενον seems to indicate exactly the position of some of the Gnostic teachers.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

He who denies that he has come, denies its actuality. They denied the possibility of a Messiah's appearing, or coming, in the flesh [Neander]. I think the Greek present participle implies both the first and the second advent of Christ. He is often elsewhere called the Coming One (Greek), Mt 11:3; Heb 10:37. The denial of the reality of His manifestation in the flesh, at His first coming, and of His personal advent again, constitutes Antichrist. “The world turns away from God and Christ, busily intent upon its own husks; but to OPPOSE God and Christ is of the leaven of Satan” [Bengel].

http://biblehub.com/2_john/1-7.htm

[Ed J]

No, it's the Christian that denies the flesh.

[2besee]

Ed, No, it is you, Mike, T, and any other deceiver.

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ June 02 2013,18:10)

No, it's the Christian that denies the flesh.

“walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1)

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ June 02 2013,18:19)

Quote (Ed J @ June 02 2013,18:10) No, it's the Christian that denies the flesh. “walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1)

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
 who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Rom 8:4)

[Author]

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