In the Beginning

Participant

Abe,

Quote

“At that time” At Jesus Baptism? Or after his death?

The Messianic age, also known as the thousand years, would fulfill that prophecy best.

May 9, 2013 at 2:30 pm#344041

Participant

Quote (abe @ May 09 2013,14:04)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 08 2013,17:42)

Abe……..That scripture is still not Saying Satan is a Angel of any Kind, no matter what “IT”, (that kind of Spirt), is “desguised” as. The words used there in my bible is “TRANSFORMS HIMSELF “AS”, an Angel of Light”. that no way says he “IS” that, or an angel of any kind..

I ask Mike for one Sctipture that Says “Satan is an Angel of anykind. To me ha-satan is a Spirit, Just as all the seven spirts of God are Sprits, they are not angels. but Spirits that imparts types and kind cognate life “IN” Beings there are no Angels that are “IN” beings, only Sprits that are at working “IN” beings. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

Heb.1:7 And of the angels he says, Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Ps.104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

I believe The Seven Spirits of God were created IN the First Day. Then, all things were created THROUGH them.

It looks like the Spirit of God is Heaven.

Is.66:1 Thus says the LORD, “Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?

Jer.3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the Throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the Name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

“At that time” At Jesus Baptism? Or after his death?

Peace brother..

Abe……….God does indeed make his angels or messengers Spirits , he makes those Spiirts and put those Spirit “IN” them.

Mike believes Jesus was and is an Angel, But what does Scripture say about Angels. He believes Jesus was a Preexisting Angel was “morphed” into a human Being form a angelic being and then turned back into an angel again. No scriptures support that at all.

Heb 2:5…..> For unto the angels hath he “NOT” put in subjection the world to come.

So if we understand this them how could Jesus be an Angel? is not Jesus the King in the world to come and is not that kingdom in subjection to him? Did he not say “When the Son of am returns, will he find Faith on the earth”?

Again where doe it say any where , this about angels,

Heb 2:7….> But one in a certain place testified, saying , What is Man that thu aret mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? (7) You made him (man) a (little) lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and did set him over the works of your hands.(8) You have put “all” things in subjection “under” his (man's) feet. For in that he put “all” in subjection under him (man) he left “nothing” that is not “under” him. and that includes angels also, dosent scripture say ” know you not that you shall Judge angels”.

There is nothing higher than Man even if we are a now “little” lower than angels by being subjected to death , but we are raised as men, with Glory and Honor, and all thing will be Subject to Man including angels, the ONLY thing that will not be is God himself. IMO

Jesus is a Son of Man, alway was and alway will be even when he returns he still will be a son of Man a pure himan being, not an Angelic being as Mike preaches. He also is a son of God just as all men can be. Mankind is God the Fathers Crown Jewel of Creation, there is nothing higher then Man in the plan and will of God. IMO

peace and love to yuo and yours……………………gene

May 9, 2013 at 2:48 pm#344042

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2013,22:47)

Abe,

Quote

“At that time” At Jesus Baptism? Or after his death?

The Messianic age, also known as the thousand years, would fulfill that prophecy best.

Kerwin……..I agree with that assement also.

peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

May 9, 2013 at 6:31 pm#344047

abe

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 09 2013,06:48)

Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2013,22:47)

Abe,

Quote

“At that time” At Jesus Baptism? Or after his death?

The Messianic age, also known as the thousand years, would fulfill that prophecy best.

Kerwin……..I agree with that assement also.

peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

Hi Gene and Kerwin,

Jn.17:9-12 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. “I am no longer in the world; and [yet] they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your NAME, [the Name] which You HAVE Given Me, that they may be one even as We [are]. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your NAME which You HAVE Given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them Perished BUT the ” Son of perdition,” so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

keep them in Your NAME, [the Name] which You HAVE Given Me,

“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your NAME which You HAVE Given Me;

Rom.6:2-7 …… How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried WITH Him through Baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall ALSO be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him], in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

Col.3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

For ye are dead

“At that time” At Jesus Baptism? Or after his death?

Peace brothers……..

May 9, 2013 at 7:34 pm#344050

Participant

Abe,

I was speaking of Jer.3:17 but since you asked we receive the spirit, which fills those that hunger and thirst for righteousness when we are immersed in the authority of Jesus. Two different events, two different times.

May 10, 2013 at 12:10 am#344064

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 08 2013,19:42)

there are no Angels that are “IN” beings, only Sprits that are at working “IN” beings. IMO

Gene,

Who are Satan's angels? I say they are the ones who are also called “demons” in scripture. What do YOU say?

May 10, 2013 at 12:17 am#344065

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 08 2013,20:34)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2013,09:34)

Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Were these human woman impregnated by the seven spirits of God?

My bible has no such wording in it, saying the “Angels” of God cohabbited with Daughers of Men , So you must be reading another bible then i am . Or following somemore of your comentaries you use.

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that you translation DOES say “angels”? Or that it DOESN'T?

Because the translation I used says “sons of God”. And I asked you if these “sons of God” were the 7 spirits of God.

Were they? If not, then WHO were these “sons of God”?

May 10, 2013 at 12:25 am#344066

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 08 2013,20:34)

So show the one scripture that say Angles are Sprit “beings”……….

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

May 10, 2013 at 1:17 am#344069

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 10 2013,06:25)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 08 2013,20:34)

So show the one scripture that say Angles are Sprit “beings”……….

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Mike,

You are attaching a certain meaning to “spirits” to make it equivalent to “spirit beings”. I doubt Gene will use the same one.

May 10, 2013 at 1:58 am#344075

Blocked

Well Kerwin,

Are angels “beings”? Of course. Even Gene acknowledges this.

So what then, COULD it possibly mean to say “angels are spirits”?

I'm open for suggestions. Gene believes it means that angels HAVE ministering spirits IN them………. but that thought is surely not in the text.

What do YOU think Paul meant?

May 10, 2013 at 4:24 am#344131

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 10 2013,07:58)

Well Kerwin,

Are angels “beings”? Of course. Even Gene acknowledges this.

So what then, COULD it possibly mean to say “angels are spirits”?

I'm open for suggestions. Gene believes it means that angels HAVE ministering spirits IN them………. but that thought is surely not in the text.

What do YOU think Paul meant?

Mike,

In all their were 500 souls; which means 500 people.

Quote

He is a ministering spirit to his grandmother.

This statement is not saying the boy is a spirit being.

This boy is not a spirit being.

May 10, 2013 at 2:30 pm#344156

Participant

Mike……….What i believe is God Makes His Angel's Spirits (the spirits, they have in them), and then sends them out to minister. This can also apply to human beings, God put his Spirits “IN” them also, Which makes his ministers like flames of Fire (powerful Judges) another words.

What i said about the words Angels being called sons of God, is not in my bible, is true, you say that the son of God are angels , i said, that scripture you quoted does not say angels at all , but the “son” of God , Men are called sons of God too, in scriptures. So is the term Son of God limited to just angels and men and nothing else, you do not know that neither do I.

But even if you limit the term to angels and men , that still comes down to the point of what is “IN” them that makes them sons, is it not the Spirit they have in them, it certainely is not the physcal part of man or angels that could be said are sons of God ,but what makes them who they are, there spirits “in” them.

I haven't seen any scripture that say Angels are son of God, if you have one produce it. I am not say they can't be called that, but i have not seen a scripture that says they are. There “may” be many thing considered as son of God, being God is Spirt, so what ever is from Yahweh “may” be considered as his son, in a “created” sense. IMO

Also i never said the Seven Spirit are called the sons of God, While i do believe they are created Spirits by Yahweh our God, and I said scripture says, there are Seven Spirits of God, Which are called, the “EYES” of God, and are sent out into all the World. Could Yahweh our God, consider theses Spirit Son i don't know, does he consider the Spirit of ha-satan a Son, that i don't know that either, neither do you. The tern Sons of God can mean more then we may view it, seening God is Spirit.

What spirits he uses in his creative process “might” be considered Sons by Yahweh, i don't know that for sure, that would be a speculation on my part only. I do not believe God uses angels in his creative process. But i do believe he uses the Seven Spirits he created, in the process of creation, for God does “all” things after the “COUNCIL” of his will. That council to me, is the Seven Spirits of God. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………gene

May 10, 2013 at 11:44 pm#344177

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2013,22:24)

In all their were 500 souls; which means 500 people.

I agree that the word “soul” is OFTEN used to refer to the entire person. What does that have to do with the current question?

Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2013,22:24)

He is a ministering spirit to his grandmother.

Okay, so you've Googled “ministering spirit”, and found an instance where a human being is METAPHORICALLY called a “spirit”. Could that same boy also METAPHORICALLY be called an “angel”? Of course he could. People call other people “angels” every day. Would the fact that I can Google an instance of a man being called an “angel” mean that Paul WASN'T talking about REAL angels in Hebrews 1:14? Of course not.

So, does the fact that you Googled an instance where a boy was called a spirit mean that Paul WASN'T talking about angels being REAL spirits in Hebrews 1:14? Of course not.

Sometimes Kerwin, someone makes a claim on this site, and it's like you can't help yourself. You have to immediately go searching for an ALTERNATE thing that scriptural statement COULD mean.

You are willing to totally overlook the most obvious meaning of the words – simply because you CAN show some other, rarely used, abstract meaning of those same words.

You have been doing it for such a long time now in the pre-existence debate that I believe it has become habit for you.

Tell me this: Is it POSSIBLE that Paul was talking about REAL angels in Heb 1:14, and calling them REAL spirits? YES or NO?

Is it POSSIBLE that Paul was talking about HUMAN BEINGS in Heb 1:14, and METAPHORICALLY calling them “angels”, and “spirits”? YES or NO?

Look to the context for your answer.

May 10, 2013 at 11:48 pm#344178

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 10 2013,08:30)

that scripture you quoted does not say angels at all , but the “son” of God , Men are called sons of God too,

Genesis 6
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they took as wives any of them they chose.

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

So you believe this passage speaks about regular old human beings having sex with regular old human beings?

May 11, 2013 at 2:04 pm#344211

Participant

Mike…….I am “not” speculating on that here , you are , not me. You “assume” angels can cohabit with women and have sex with them , not me , now if scripture said they were angels I would have no problem excepting it. Everything else is a human “speculation” and to teach it as truth is at best an assumption. Tell me this Mike who was Melchisdic seeming he was without origin was he an angel or a man or some other kind of created being? Was the Nephilim already flesh beings, created by God much earlier , I don't know that neither do you, at least from scriptures anyway. You do a lot of speculating about many thing and grab scriptures and try to make them say what in fact, they do not “specifically” say. That is called forcing the text, But so do all Trinitarians and Preexistences IMO.

Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

May 11, 2013 at 5:13 pm#344219

abe

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2013,17:58)

Well Kerwin,

Are angels “beings”? Of course. Even Gene acknowledges this.

So what then, COULD it possibly mean to say “angels are spirits”?

I'm open for suggestions. Gene believes it means that angels HAVE ministering spirits IN them………. but that thought is surely not in the text.

What do YOU think Paul meant?

Hi Mike,

Why is it so important to YOU to use the term BEING? You are adding to the Scripture.

Peace

May 11, 2013 at 7:00 pm#344220

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2013,05:44)

Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2013,22:24)

In all their were 500 souls; which means 500 people.

I agree that the word “soul” is OFTEN used to refer to the entire person. What does that have to do with the current question?

Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2013,22:24)

He is a ministering spirit to his grandmother.

So, does the fact that you Googled an instance where a boy was called a spirit mean that Paul WASN'T talking about angels being REAL spirits in Hebrews 1:14? Of course not.

Sometimes Kerwin, someone makes a claim on this site, and it's like you can't help yourself. You have to immediately go searching for an ALTERNATE thing that scriptural statement COULD mean.

You are willing to totally overlook the most obvious meaning of the words – simply because you CAN show some other, rarely used, abstract meaning of those same words.

You have been doing it for such a long time now in the pre-existence debate that I believe it has become habit for you.

Tell me this: Is it POSSIBLE that Paul was talking about REAL angels in Heb 1:14, and calling them REAL spirits? YES or NO?

Is it POSSIBLE that Paul was talking about HUMAN BEINGS in Heb 1:14, and METAPHORICALLY calling them “angels”, and “spirits”? YES or NO?

Look to the context for your answer.

Mike,

The boy is called a soul because he has a soul.
The boy has a spirit.
He can be called a spirit just like he is called a soul.
His spirit leads him to minister.

He is a ministering spirit because he has a ministering spirit.

Quote

He is a gentle spirit, and an absolute love with people of all ages.

This one at Colorado Horse Rescue is about a horse. I have not ever heard it used about evil spirits in the English language.

May 11, 2013 at 7:18 pm#344221

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2013,05:48)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 10 2013,08:30)

that scripture you quoted does not say angels at all , but the “son” of God , Men are called sons of God too,

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

So you believe this passage speaks about regular old human beings having sex with regular old human beings?

Mike,

The only sons of God mentioned in the Law, The books of Mosses, are the Children of Israel. The Messengers were not referred to that until the book of Job, which is not a book of the Law, the books of Mosses.

sons of God{
* Anyone created by Jehovah.
* Any male created by Jehovah.
* Any male that receives the Word of God.
* Anyone that receives the Word of God.
* One of Jehovah's angels.
* a saint.
* a male saint.
}

There is seven possible though some can be eliminated because the passage is clearly speaking of males. There is nothing in the context that supports selecting angels. Everyone is created by Jehovah and so that option is eliminated. The did not behave as a saint.

May 11, 2013 at 8:15 pm#344224

abe

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 10 2013,06:30)

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………gene

Hi Gene,

Col.1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for (into) him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to Have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Through – Into – Hold Together

Rev.5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and Of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven Horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Do you think the 7 Horns are the Seven Lampstands?

Peace brother..

May 12, 2013 at 5:30 am#344237