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Well good, 2B. Because Satan IS a being. Now, how do you suggest we go about explaining that to your friend, Gene?
As for the rest, I already answered you that the NET scholars help me ALOT. Tell me 2B, how did you learn to read? Did the Spirit teach you to read and write? Or did you learn those things from MEN?
If you learned how to read the Bible in the first place from MEN, then why can't I learn more about the Hebrew and Greek languages from MEN?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2013,17:53) I already answered you that the NET scholars help me ALOT. Tell me 2B, how did you learn to read? Did the Spirit teach you to read and write? Or did you learn those things from MEN? But you are not just reading the Hebrew and the Greek Mike.
When I look at the Hebrew and the Greek, I click on the words on biblos.
So though you say you are learning the Hebrew and the Greek, you are actually learning what each verse means from SCHOLARS.
Quote Tell me 2B, how did you learn to read? Did the Spirit teach you to read and write? Or did you learn those things from MEN? “But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.” John 2:27
The Bible is like a letter from a heavenly Father to His own children. In the Scriptures, God teaches us and speaks to us, as does Jesus. Why interrupt words of the Father and Jesus with mans interpretation? So WHAT if our understanding differs from others understandings. It needs to be between us and God, and if we do not understand something, then we will be shown.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2013,10:08) Before we continue trying to decipher Paul's sometimes poetic wording, let's get to the bottom of this: Do we all agree that “Satan” is a real, live, spirit BEING – an angel of Jehovah who rebelled against his God and Creator?
According to the clear testimony of scripture, Satan and his demons are actual BEINGS. They have minds and wills of their own. They have names. They are PERSONS. They were created as spirit sons of God. They are angels who turned against their God. And they sometimes mess with human beings USING spiritual forces.
And when Paul says our struggle is against the spiritual RULERS of the dark world, he is talking about actual spirit BEINGS.
As long as I've known Gene, he has insisted that these demonic BEINGS don't exist. He doesn't believe an actual BEING named Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness. He doesn't think it was a BEING who offered Jesus the kingdoms of the earth in exchange for an act of worship.
And instead of you guys correcting Gene about his misunderstanding, you seem to be going out of your way to find poetic wordings in scripture to SUPPORT him in that misunderstanding.
Abe and Kerwin, lay it on the line and say it clear. Answer the bolded part of my post with a clear and direct answer.
Mike,Satan is the chief of the angels that bear the fruits of the Satan spirit.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2013,20:08) Before we continue trying to decipher Paul's sometimes poetic wording, let's get to the bottom of this: Do we all agree that “Satan” is a real, live, spirit BEING – an angel of Jehovah who rebelled against his God and Creator?
According to the clear testimony of scripture, Satan and his demons are actual BEINGS. They have minds and wills of their own. They have names. They are PERSONS. They were created as spirit sons of God. They are angels who turned against their God. And they sometimes mess with human beings USING spiritual forces.
And when Paul says our struggle is against the spiritual RULERS of the dark world, he is talking about actual spirit BEINGS.
As long as I've known Gene, he has insisted that these demonic BEINGS don't exist. He doesn't believe an actual BEING named Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness. He doesn't think it was a BEING who offered Jesus the kingdoms of the earth in exchange for an act of worship.
And instead of you guys correcting Gene about his misunderstanding, you seem to be going out of your way to find poetic wordings in scripture to SUPPORT him in that misunderstanding.
Abe and Kerwin, lay it on the line and say it clear. Answer the bolded part of my post with a clear and direct answer.
Hi Mike,Jn.4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
What do you mean by Spirit BEING?
Peace brother……….
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2013,15:08) As long as I've known Gene, he has insisted that these demonic BEINGS don't exist. He doesn't believe an actual BEING named Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness. He doesn't think it was a BEING who offered Jesus the kingdoms of the earth in exchange for an act of worship.
Mike………Lets get it straight i don't believe they exist as you portray them a individual “persons” I do believe they exist as Spirits created by God. And i certainly believe in Demonic Spirits as existing, and if you call that a “Being ” then so be it. I call Spirits aspects of “of Beings” . Because they are spirits and can inter into a person who i call a “being” , While a Person can not enter into a person now can they? I might have a different understanding of what makes a whole Being like a person, I certainly believe in demonic “SPIRITS” , and have never said differently as far as i know.Secondly what i said about Jesus in the wilderness is this, that Jesus was overcoming His OWN Human Nature, his SELF in that dialog about Satan and Him, It was his own Human Nature “MIND” he was overcoming in that wilderness. He was not overcoming another “separate' Satan Person, but his own NATURE “WITHIN HIM”.
He completely understood the power that was given him, to turn those stones into bread, and he was very hungry, it was his own “human” nature reasoning, that said turn these stones into bread, it was his own human nature reasoning that said he could jump off that cliff and the angels would bear him up, because he know who he was, but he still had his human nature to deal with, he knew he could, with the power given him, have all the kingdoms in the world. That hight place was in his own mind where his human nature took him. He overcame it by the word of God through the spirit of God given him at the Jordan River.
None of that was a “separate” satan “Person”, doing that to him it was his own “HUMAN NATURE “tempting” him. That is what he was overcoming in the wilderness. He was there being tested by God because the Spirit of God lead him out into the wilderness to be tested forty days and forty nights.
Just read the dialog correctly and you can understand that. First of all there is no Mountain high enough to see “all” the Kingdoms of the world. It was in His own Mind all the was taking place as he overcame HIMSELF his own human nature,> He that has an ear let him hear.
Mike you concept of an “external Satan” (person) is wrong, that Spirit of ha-satan is a Spirit (intellect) of an adversary that working “IN” the children of disobedience. Not a person standing there talking and reasoning with to them, as you think. All spirits can exist inside a person or outside a person. IMO
So when you present Satan as a Angel or a person i disagree with it , I picture ha-satan as a “spirit” of an adversary working “IN” people through there human nature. If you have proof Satan is a separate “person” who is a Angel present it then. I do not recall ever reading where ha-satan is a Angel
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (2besee @ May 04 2013,23:03) When I look at the Hebrew and the Greek, I click on the words on biblos.
I do that too, 2B. But you've already been shown that the transliterated words, in and of themselves, can be misleading.There is more to understanding the words than just reading the transliterations and definitions. You need to learn WHY the word just says “run”, but it means “SHE runs”.
You won't learn that without tapping into the knowledge of those who know these things.
BTW, you didn't answer my question. Did you learn to read and write from the Holy Spirit? Or from men?
How about if you decide today to learn Spanish? Will you learn from men? Or from the Holy Spirit?
Quote (2besee @ May 04 2013,23:09) The Bible is like a letter from a heavenly Father to His own children. In the Scriptures, God teaches us and speaks to us, as does Jesus. Why interrupt words of the Father and Jesus with mans interpretation?
Any English Bible you read is “a man's interpretation”, 2B.Quote (abe @ May 04 2013,23:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2013,20:08)
Do we all agree that “Satan” is a real, live, spirit BEING – an angel of Jehovah who rebelled against his God and Creator?
Hi Mike,Jn.4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
What do you mean by Spirit BEING?
Peace brother……….
I refer to a spirit ENTITY, Abe. I refer to a PERSON, who has his own mind, heart, soul, and will, and consists of a spirit nature, instead of a human one.For example, “Abe is human”. That statement does not prohibit Abe from being a human BEING, right? When you hear the phrase “human BEING”, how do you understand the word “being”?
I'm asking you to understand the word being the same way if “spirit” is in front of it, as you would if “human” was in front of it.
(BTW, my question was about SATAN, not God. Please answer it accordingly.)
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 05 2013,09:36) Secondly what i said about Jesus in the wilderness is this, that Jesus was overcoming His OWN Human Nature, his SELF in that dialog about Satan and Him, It was his own Human Nature “MIND” he was overcoming in that wilderness. He was not overcoming another “separate' Satan Person, but his own NATURE “WITHIN HIM”.
See what I'm talking about? Do we all agree with Gene's understanding here?Kerwin? Abe? 2B? Do you all agree that Jesus was being tempted by “his own human nature MIND”? Do you believe it was Jesus' “human nature MIND” that was offering him the kingdoms of the world, and asking him to do an act of worship to it?
I know I don't. And I know that Satan is a real, live, spirit BEING who tempted Jesus. He is the ruler of the demons, and the prince of this world, according to Jesus. He presented himself before God along with the other angels, according to Job 1 and 2. He was the god of Ekron, to whom King Ahaziah inquired to find out his fate, according to Jehovah Himself.
Now Gene thinks all these things refer to a “cognate thought within ourselves”. And he has been bashing me for over three years about how I “don't understand what spirits are”.
So I'm putting Gene on the hot seat here. He won't listen to reason from me, because it is not coming from someone he “trusts” or “respects”.
Perhaps he'll listen to you guys.
Mike ……. Show us where he presented his self with other “Angels” I would like to see that. Because the term sons of God is used there that does not say “Angles” that's you personal interpretation to that scripture. In fact show us ONE Place in scripture that says ha-satan is an Angel of any kind. You can't produce one scripture that says the spirit of ha-satan is an ANGEL, if you can I and all of us would like to see it. You are assuming things as you do with many scriptures . IMO
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,08:49) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 05 2013,09:36) Secondly what i said about Jesus in the wilderness is this, that Jesus was overcoming His OWN Human Nature, his SELF in that dialog about Satan and Him, It was his own Human Nature “MIND” he was overcoming in that wilderness. He was not overcoming another “separate' Satan Person, but his own NATURE “WITHIN HIM”.
See what I'm talking about? Do we all agree with Gene's understanding here?Kerwin? Abe? 2B? Do you all agree that Jesus was being tempted by “his own human nature MIND”? Do you believe it was Jesus' “human nature MIND” that was offering him the kingdoms of the world, and asking him to do an act of worship to it?
I know I don't. And I know that Satan is a real, live, spirit BEING who tempted Jesus. He is the ruler of the demons, and the prince of this world, according to Jesus. He presented himself before God along with the other angels, according to Job 1 and 2. He was the god of Ekron, to whom King Ahaziah inquired to find out his fate, according to Jehovah Himself.
Now Gene thinks all these things refer to a “cognate thought within ourselves”. And he has been bashing me for over three years about how I “don't understand what spirits are”.
So I'm putting Gene on the hot seat here. He won't listen to reason from me, because it is not coming from someone he “trusts” or “respects”.
Perhaps he'll listen to you guys.
Mike,I believe man is created a little lower than either the Messengers of righteousness or of evil. Temptation is a message whispered in a man's mind.
Kerwin…….. That is right and that is “spirit” at work in the mind of man, it was at work in Jesus' mind also and he had to overcome it, and did by the Spirit of God, which produced the words of God that he answered it with and overcame his own carnal human nature with. Therefore he says whosoever shall overcome even as I have . We must overcome the same way Jesus did, by that same Spirit of God and which produces the word of God in us, the same way Jesus did, IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Abe and 2besee and whoever is interested………if you can go back in the Satan thread and read what Jodie wrote she was right in what she posted IMO.
Peace and love to you all………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,15:25) Quote (2besee @ May 04 2013,23:03) When I look at the Hebrew and the Greek, I click on the words on biblos.
I do that too, 2B. But you've already been shown that the transliterated words, in and of themselves, can be misleading.There is more to understanding the words than just reading the transliterations and definitions. You need to learn WHY the word just says “run”, but it means “SHE runs”.
You won't learn that without tapping into the knowledge of those who know these things.
You would be surprised what you can come to learn when you only trust God.
Quote BTW, you didn't answer my question. Did you learn to read and write from the Holy Spirit? Or from men? From men, but the Holy Spirit also knows His own from when they are born, they are God's because God knows everything, before it happens.
And, I did answer your question.
I gave the verse that we have no need for anybody to teach us, because the Holy Spirit teaches us all things. (That is, teaches us all things, from God).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,15:26) Quote (2besee @ May 04 2013,23:09) The Bible is like a letter from a heavenly Father to His own children. In the Scriptures, God teaches us and speaks to us, as does Jesus. Why interrupt words of the Father and Jesus with mans interpretation?
Any English Bible you read is “a man's interpretation”, 2B.Yes, Mike but a commentary is just a mans understanding. Sure, some parts may be Holy Spirit inspired, but not all.
Some things which I know as false, are the opposite in commentaries. So I never read them.
Mike,
You may feel stupid when everybody seems to know so much more than you do, but when you only trust in God, then you are giving your will to God and that includes knowledge.Many people know a lot, but the child among the “adults” often knows more, and that is biblical. because what they know is deeper. I am talking from past experience.
I have seen absolutely knowledgeable people on forums who can pull out HUGE posts full of KNOWLEDGE, to a scholarly level, and then I have seen the one who is innocent and pure, post something which could make them all fall over if they heard him, usually they do not.
“Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies”.
(Sorry to get all preachy – I been doing a lot of that recently!)Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 07 2013,17:41) Abe and 2besee and whoever is interested………if you can go back in the Satan thread and read what Jodie wrote she was right in what she posted IMO. Peace and love to you all………………………..gene
Hi Gene.
I have always believed that Satan is a being. But apparently, the Jews do not believed that.
Quote:
“Satan is a character that appears in the belief systems of many religions, including Christianity and Islam. In Judaism “satan” is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara – that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong.”
That was from About.Com
One thing is for certain, whatever you or I believe Satan to be or not to be, when you “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”
As is usual though, the words “He will flee from you” is not in the Greek!
I don't know.
I grew up fearing Satan due to a very Catholic parent, but, I do not now.Fear God.
Quote (2besee @ May 07 2013,16:10) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 07 2013,17:41) Abe and 2besee and whoever is interested………if you can go back in the Satan thread and read what Jodie wrote she was right in what she posted IMO. Peace and love to you all………………………..gene
Hi Gene.
I have always believed that Satan is a being. But apparently, the Jews do not believed that.
Quote:
“Satan is a character that appears in the belief systems of many religions, including Christianity and Islam. In Judaism “satan” is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara – that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong.”
That was from About.Com
One thing is for certain, whatever you or I believe Satan to be or not to be, when you “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”
As is usual though, the words “He will flee from you” is not in the Greek!
I don't know.
I grew up fearing Satan due to a very Catholic parent, but, I do not now.Fear God.
2beesee,That information is not totally correct. Wikipedia seem to be a better tertiary source on the matter.
To All……….I am more inline with the Jewish understanding of our human Nature inclination, that is working in all flesh beings and must be overcome as we come in alinement with God and his Words, and his commandments. The spirit of ha-satan is one of the spirits of God, it acts as a “questioning” Spirit , it may be “one” of the Sprit councils of God, It causes us and God to “question” things, and is therefore called the spirit of an Advasery. In the Case of Job “IT” counciled God to question Jobs loyality to him. But God already knew what he had to do to Job to correct his thinking IMO, but he used that Sprit to bring about his will in Jobs life, for Job's ultimate Good.
It was how God delivered Job from a bad future he was heading for. God knew all along what he was going to do to Job, that is why it was not ha-satan that brought up the subject of Job but God. :”have you consider my servan Job”: This adveserial Spirit was not able to get to Job, because God had put a shield around him and “IT” could not effect him.
But the problems were in the making in Job , His personal “rightious” integeratory would have produced a mindset of (SELF) Rigthiousness in him, it was already doing that as the dialog with his three frinds shows, so God willing to Save Job , dealt with his Problem of (self) rightiousness. SoGod humbled him and in this way delivered Job. IMO
No scripture say ha-satan is a angle of any kind, that is something man has come up with, IMO
peace and love to you all……………………………………………….gene
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