- This topic has 3,161 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
Mike………Piecing out a post and not understanding the whole context is a problem here. I never said our fight is with flesh and blood “ITSELF” , what i was saying is our fight is with Spiritual wickedness working “IN” those flesh and blood beings “in high places” of authority, influencing them to do the thing they do. Your thinking that i was saying flesh and blood “ITSELF” is what we are waring against, i am not saying that, I am saying that Spirits is what “INFLUENCES” those flesh and blood “BEINGS” in this world, it is those Spirits in them we are waring against. It is not the flesh and blood part of a person but the Spirit “IN” them . Do you see what i am saying There is a difference between flesh and blood and the Spirits driving them, That is my and Paul's point.
So these Spirits “IN” people, in high places of power, is what we are wrestling against, not the flesh and blood part of those people. But spiritual wickedness working “IN” them”.
Does that better explain what i am saying Mike ?
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………gene
Mike……When did i say Our God is not a Being , Yahweh our God is a person, who has before his Throne a composite of Seven distinct Spirits (types of intellects) called the seven Spirit of God. These are before the Throne of our God, Yahweh, Most people can only understand a spirits as beings like a person. But Spirits are not persons they are types and kinds of “Cognate intellects”, that produce a type or kind of cognate Life.
They produce in us there own signature as types or kinds of awareness, rather clean or unclean, each spirit produces its own intellect influence in us. All Spirit are distinct parts of what life “IS” . Even our God Yahweh's Seven Spirits are in the world and in it's life forms, because Yahweh has sent them out into all the earth.
It is the Spirits of God given us that sustains us all, and when we die they simply go back to Him (Yahweh) who gave them in the first place. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2013,20:41) Mike, Gene has some difficulty expressing his ideas. Sometimes his words do conflict with one another and he fails to communicate his ideas. I think this is one of those times.
Kerwin……….Surely you can understand what i have written there, it is clearly written brother. Abe can see it clearly also and i believe so can anyone else who completely reads the whole post.peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2013,08:29) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2013,20:41) Mike, Gene has some difficulty expressing his ideas. Sometimes his words do conflict with one another and he fails to communicate his ideas. I think this is one of those times.
Kerwin……….Surly you can understand what i have written there, it is clearly written brother. Abe can see it clearly also and i believe so can anyone else who completely reads the whole post.peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Hi Gene,Amen.
Peace brother.
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2013,03:41) Mike, Gene has some difficulty expressing his ideas. Sometimes his words do conflict with one another and he fails to communicate his ideas. I think this is one of those times.
I agree, Kerwin.And as my original post will attest, all I did was matter-of-factly tell him that his words not only contradicted Paul's teaching, but they also contradicted each other.
HE is the one who got all bent out of shape and made it into a challenge………. not me. Perhaps he should have re-read what he wrote, said, “Oops, I MEANT to say this instead”, and moved on.
Then I got Abe over there taking Gene's side and saying he DIDN'T contradict himself – when you, I, and Pierre know full well he DID. And that just made matters worse.
My statement was innocent and truthful. Why should I sit back and let someone else make ME a liar when all I did was tell the truth?
Anyway, I'm about to address Abe's post. I would like to hear your input when I'm done – to see if you and I are on the same page about Paul's teaching.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 25 2013,05:27) Mike……..The powers of this world are men and world leaders who control the world governments and “IF” the Spirits working “IN” them are evil then those Spirits are influencing them to do those evil works. Quote (abe @ April 28 2013,21:19) Mike, why didn't you put the WHOLE post in?
Okay Abe, I put the whole first sentence above. It appears to me that Gene says the powers of this world are MEN. Is that what Paul was teaching us? YES or NO?He further goes on to say that IF the spirits working IN these men are evil, then these MEN do evil works. I take that to mean that Gene thinks our struggle is STILL against these MEN, who are doing evil works BECAUSE an evil spirit is influencing them. Is that what Paul was teaching? YES or NO?
Notice that Gene DOESN'T say our battle is against the evil spirits who INFLUENCE these men, but implies the battle is against the MEN themselves. (Ie: He thinks THEY [the men] are the “powers of this world” that Paul mentioned.) Do you agree with Gene that flesh and blood MEN are the “powers of this dark world” that Paul mentioned? YES or NO? (Remember that Paul's first words were, For our struggle is not against flesh and blood. I assume by “flesh and blood”, Paul means “MEN”. Don't you?)
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 25 2013,05:27) So indeed our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against human beings being effected by the darken Spirits in them and even against these same evil forces in the heavenly realms.
Note, I do not now, nor have I ever suggested that the BLUE part of Gene's words were wrong. I didn't feel the need to post THAT PART at first, because I had no disagreement with THAT PART. My disagreement is with the FIRST PART (the part I DID quote).Gene is saying that our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood (which metaphorically refers to HUMAN BEINGS), but it IS against human beings who have been affected by the dark spirits in them. Now listen closely Abe (and Gene): If you say our struggle IS against human beings, then it doesn't matter WHY our struggle IS against human beings. Ie: It doesn't matter that our struggle IS against human beings ONLY BECAUSE those particular human beings have dark spirits within them. The BOTTOM LINE is that you're STILL saying our struggle IS against HUMAN BEINGS.
Abe, was Paul teaching us that our struggle IS against human beings? YES or NO? And how about Gene? Was HE teaching that our struggle IS against HUMAN BEINGS who have a dark spirit IN them? YES or NO?
So like I originally said, Gene's words not only contradict Paul's teaching, but some of his words even contradicted themselves.
To say our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood, but it IS against humans with a dark spirit in them is a CONTRADICTION. Paul gave no specifications about whether the flesh and blood in question had a dark spirit or not. He simply said our struggle was NOT against flesh and blood – PERIOD! A human being WITH a dark spirit is STILL “flesh and blood”. And Paul said our struggle was NOT against “flesh and blood”.
Guys, consider the man who had Legion inside of him. Was Jesus' struggle IN ANY WAY against the flesh and blood man himself? Or was it ONLY against the spirit beings IN the man, and NOT AT ALL against the flesh and blood man himself?
So you CAN'T say our struggle is against flesh and blood MEN who HAVE dark spirits IN them, because that is contradictory to Paul's teaching. You CAN say our struggle is against those dark spirit beings who are SOMETIMES (not ALWAYS) in a man. But never is the struggle against the man himself – according to that particular teaching by Paul.
Now I've wasted WAY TOO MUCH TIME on this silliness. Let it go.
Quote (abe @ April 28 2013,21:19) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) He doesn't even believe God is a spirit BEING.
That I find hard to believe?
He has told me and many others as much many times on this site. He doesn't believe there EXISTS such a thing as a “spirit being”.Quote (abe @ April 28 2013,21:19) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Was Paul teaching us that our struggle is NOT against human beings, but against SPIRIT BEINGS? YES or NO?
Yes. Spirit beings in human beings.
Why do you add “in human beings”, Abe? Did PAUL say “in human beings”? Or did he mention that these powers were even in the “heavenly realms”? Which “human being” lives in the “heavenly realms”? How could these spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms be “in human beings” – as you put it? And how about Satan? Was Satan “in human beings” when he tempted Jesus? If not, what makes you think he must be “in human beings” for our struggle to be against him?Isn't it more accurate to say our struggle is against spirit beings, and leave it at that?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2013,10:14) Mike……When did i say Our God is not a Being?
Many times in many threads, Gene. But just to be sure:Gene, do you believe that God Almighty is a spirit being? YES or NO?
As for the rest of your post, I agree that sometimes the word “spirit” does NOT refer to a being with its own mind and will. But many times in scripture, that word DOES refer to a spirit being with its own mind and will. Demons, Satan, angels, God, and Jesus are all examples of this. They are all “spirits” – which in these cases means “spirit beings”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2013,17:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 25 2013,05:27) Mike……..The powers of this world are men and world leaders who control the world governments and “IF” the Spirits working “IN” them are evil then those Spirits are influencing them to do those evil works. Quote (abe @ April 28 2013,21:19) Mike, why didn't you put the WHOLE post in?
Okay Abe, I put the whole first sentence above. It appears to me that Gene says the powers of this world are MEN. Is that what Paul was teaching us? YES or NO?He further goes on to say that IF the spirits working IN these men are evil, then these MEN do evil works. I take that to mean that Gene thinks our struggle is STILL against these MEN, who are doing evil works BECAUSE an evil spirit is influencing them. Is that what Paul was teaching? YES or NO?
Notice that Gene DOESN'T say our battle is against the evil spirits who INFLUENCE these men, but implies the battle is against the MEN themselves. (Ie: He thinks THEY [the men] are the “powers of this world” that Paul mentioned.) Do you agree with Gene that flesh and blood MEN are the “powers of this dark world” that Paul mentioned? YES or NO? (Remember that Paul's first words were, For our struggle is not against flesh and blood. I assume by “flesh and blood”, Paul means “MEN”. Don't you?)
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 25 2013,05:27) So indeed our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against human beings being effected by the darken Spirits in them and even against these same evil forces in the heavenly realms.
Note, I do not now, nor have I ever suggested that the BLUE part of Gene's words were wrong. I didn't feel the need to post THAT PART at first, because I had no disagreement with THAT PART. My disagreement is with the FIRST PART (the part I DID quote).Gene is saying that our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood (which metaphorically refers to HUMAN BEINGS), but it IS against human beings who have been affected by the dark spirits in them. Now listen closely Abe (and Gene): If you say our struggle IS against human beings, then it doesn't matter WHY our struggle IS against human beings. Ie: It doesn't matter that our struggle IS against human beings ONLY BECAUSE those particular human beings have dark spirits within them. The BOTTOM LINE is that you're STILL saying our struggle IS against HUMAN BEINGS.
Abe, was Paul teaching us that our struggle IS against human beings? YES or NO? And how about Gene? Was HE teaching that our struggle IS against HUMAN BEINGS who have a dark spirit IN them? YES or NO?
So like I originally said, Gene's words not only contradict Paul's teaching, but some of his words even contradicted themselves.
To say our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood, but it IS against humans with a dark spirit in them is a CONTRADICTION. Paul gave no specifications about whether the flesh and blood in question had a dark spirit or not. He simply said our struggle was NOT against flesh and blood – PERIOD! A human being WITH a dark spirit is STILL “flesh and blood”. And Paul said our struggle was NOT against “flesh and blood”.
Guys, consider the man who had Legion inside of him. Was Jesus' struggle IN ANY WAY against the flesh and blood man himself? Or was it ONLY against the spirit beings IN the man, and NOT AT ALL against the flesh and blood man himself?
So you CAN'T say our struggle is against flesh and blood MEN who HAVE dark spirits IN them, because that is contradictory to Paul's teaching. You CAN say our struggle is against those dark spirit beings who are SOMETIMES (not ALWAYS) in a man. But never is the struggle against the man himself – according to that particular teaching by Paul.
Now I've wasted WAY TOO MUCH TIME on this silliness. Let it go.
Quote (abe @ April 28 2013,21:19) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) He doesn't even believe God is a spirit BEING.
That I find hard to believe?
He has told me and many others as much many times on this site. He doesn't believe there EXISTS such a thing as a “spirit being”.Quote (abe @ April 28 2013,21:19) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Was Paul teaching us that our struggle is NOT against human beings, but against SPIRIT BEINGS? YES or NO?
Yes. Spirit beings in human beings.
Why do you add “in human beings”, Abe? Did PAUL say “in human beings”? Or did he mention that these powers were even in the “heavenly realms”? Which “human being” lives in the “heavenly realms”? How could these spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms be “in human beings” – as you put it? And how about Satan? Was Satan “in human beings” when he tempted Jesus? If not, what makes you think he must be “in human beings” for our struggle to be against him?Isn't it more accurate to say our struggle is against spirit beings, and leave it at that?
Hi Mike,Ephesians 6:12 New International Version
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.(Quote)
Mike……..The powers of this world are men and world leaders who control the world governments and “IF” the Spirits working “IN” them are evil then those Spirits are influencing them to do those evil works.(Influencing)
(Quote)
The BOTTOM LINE is that you're STILL saying our struggle IS against HUMAN BEINGS.No, Thats what YOU see?
Abe, was Paul teaching us that our struggle IS against human beings? YES or NO? And how about Gene? Was HE teaching that our struggle IS against HUMAN BEINGS
No, evil spirits in human beings.
Matt16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me;
for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's.”Peace brother…
Quote (abe @ April 29 2013,21:13) No, evil spirits in human beings.
Close, but no cigar. Gene didn't say our struggle was against evil spirits IN human beings. He said our struggle was against human beings who are INFLUENCED BY evil spirits.Key words: Our struggle is against HUMAN BEINGS
So perhaps he MEANT what YOU are saying………. but that's not what he said.
Besides, didn't he point blank say that the rulers of the dark world – the ones Paul talked about – were MEN? Yep.
Abe, I asked you a question about why you felt the need to add the words “in human beings” to Paul's teaching.
What is your answer?
Mike….. Yes I did say our struggle was with the spirits “WORKING” in men in high places . Anyone with half a mind who read my post can see that clearly . Your are lying about what is said no two ways about it. Abe and anyone with half a brain can see clearly what I was saying . I hold to it and so does the apostle Paul.
Your explanation of the man who had the legion of demons should tell you that , it was not the flesh and blood man driving “himself” to do the things he was doing , but the legion of unclean spirits “in” him was causing it, and when Jesus cast them out the flesh and blood man became normal. Again I am saying, it is the spirits of wickedness “in” flesh and blood human beings, in high places of authority, causing them to do the things they do, that's what we fight against, and that is exactly what Paul and Abe and I both mean.
Talk about contradictions you own words about his subject is a contradiction IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Abe …….Thanks at least there is a few here that understand what I was saying.
Peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 25 2013,19:27) Mike……..The powers of this world are men and world leaders who control the world governments and “IF” the Spirits working “IN” them are evil then those Spirits are influencing them to do those evil works. The spirits themselves have no power but to effect what they are in which is the Power source they use human “BODIES” , Rather Clean or unclean Spirit they work the same way. So indeed our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against human beings being effected by the darken Spirits in them and even against these same evil forces in the heavenly realms. Remember LIFE consists of both Spirit forces , Good and Evil, it take both because Good explains what is evil and evil explains what is good you can't have one with out the “KNOWLEDGE” of the other We are all learning from these two forces at work in all things. IMO But none of that make these evil forces a God of any kind unless you are worshiping them , then they are your God as i explained before the word God consists of “two” things, one “POWER” and the other, that which you “TRUST” in or put your “FAITH” in . There is no God to you without both things Power and Trust. Even the True God is no GOD “to you”, unless both of these things exist. Sincere FAITH and Worship is a REQUIREMENT for a personnel GOD. Therefore as it says, “it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without Faith”. Faith is a requirement in worship and serving a God, any kind of God. So you can see it is not Just Power but FAITH and WORSHIP that makes a GOD. Mike there is ONLY ONE “TRUE” GOD to me, no matter how many “UNTRUE” God's men have made for themselves.
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Gene,I think I know what you meant to say but your grammar failed you. A few commas at the right places may render it easier to understand.
Kerwin ……Thanks brother, some time I get in a hurry and don't post right , sorry. Mike full well knows what I am saying , he Just put his foot in his mouth and doesn't know how to get it out. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2013,21:58) Mike….. Yes I did say our struggle was with the spirits “WORKING” in men in high places
You might have MEANT that, Gene. But it's not what you actually posted. You posted that our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against human beings being effected by the darken Spirits in them.Do you see the bold part? That is what you WROTE. Are you now saying that is not what you MEANT?
If you MEANT that our struggle is against dark spirits who sometimes affect human beings, then I, Abe, Kerwin, and Paul all agree with you.
Unfortunately, you wrote that our struggle is against the human beings themselves – the ones who are affected by dark spirits. So if THIS is what you meant, then NO, I don't agree with you, nor is that what Paul was teaching.
Also, you believe the “rulers” Paul was talking about are MEN. That is not correct, either. Paul is talking about SPIRIT rulers, powers, and authorities. He is speaking about spirit beings, Gene.
He is telling us that our struggle is not against HUMAN beings, but against SPIRIT beings.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2013,22:11) Kerwin ……Thanks brother, some time I get in a hurry and don't post right , sorry. Mike full well knows what I am saying , he Just put his foot in his mouth and doesn't know how to get it out. IMO
Let me get this straight, Gene. You say that YOU posted it WRONG, yet I'M the one who put my foot in my mouth?
And you say I should have just known what you meant – even though YOU posted it wrong?
Whatever.I believe you actually posted it right the first time.
See, I already know that you don't believe spirit beings even exist. So you MUST alter Paul's words to say our struggle is against HUMAN BEINGS who are affected BY “cognate thoughts” – or whatever it is you call “spirits”.
So that's why I suspect you DID post exactly what you meant in that first post. You can't allow yourself to understand that Paul was saying our struggle is NOT against HUMAN BEINGS, but IS against SPIRIT BEINGS, both in this world and in the heavenly realms, right?
You can't understand it the way Paul meant it because it would allow for the existence of spirit beings – something you rail against unceasingly.
Mike……..How is it that everyone else Knows what i have posted but you? Again you seek to twist what i am saying, what i posted was right and accurate also. A human Being consist of Two things a Flesh and blood body And Spirits working “IN” them, And if those Spirit are evil, even those people themselves who have those evil unclean spirits are wrestle against them, as well as those around them. The whole creation is in the Grips of these Spirits, even animals also, they bring the whole creation into a type bondage which God will eventually deliver. Rom 8:21.
Tell us Mike was Jesus wrestling against Spirit apart from human flesh and blood bodies , Was those Human Flesh and Blood , that he called the Children of the Devil?
Mike face it you put you foot in your mouth on this one and trying to dance you way out, by distorting what i have said , looking for little things you can distort or twist is just you MO.
Mike you trying to use Kerwin to twist your way out of this only reveals you nature, And where did I say my post is Wrong, You simply can not admit you are in error , If you don't believe that those evil spirit are “IN” and working through men who are flesh and blood human beings of this world in Power in High Places, then you have no clue of what spirits are nor any idea of what Paul was saying either IMO .
A single Spirit “ITSELF” is not a PERSON it is what is “IN” a Person, rather clean or unclean, even the Holy (set aside) Spirit of the Living God. All these Spirits, come in types and kinds, and effect all human beings, and yes, in and through our Flesh and blood bodies causing there individual destinct effects in us all.
Rom 8:15….> For ye have not received the “SPIRIT” of Bondage “again” to fear; but you have received the “SPIRIT” of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba Father. (16) The “SPIRIT itself bears witness with our “spirit' that we are the children of God;
Tell us Mike did we receive a Person who is a Spirit or did we receive a (COGNATE INTELLECT) from that type or kind of Spirit placed or came to be in us. I also believe a Spirit is an “IT” not a He or a She. Each Spirit has it own destinct effect in a persons life they can come into us and combine with our Spirit given us by God at berth, they cause and do influence and drive our WILLS they can bring us into a type of bondage. All Spirits have there Distinct influences in all creation, either good or evil, clean or unclean. They all work in the Mind of a flesh and blood body. This whole world is under there influence.
Jesus was wrestling against this kind of “Adversial spirit” of ha-satan or devil which was “working” in the Pharisees who were rulers and had authority. And believe it or not Mike they were flesh and blood human beings those spirit were “WORKING THROUGH”.
peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2013,11:46) [/quote]
Let me get this straight, Gene. You say that YOU posted it WRONG, yet I'M the one who put my foot in my mouth?
Mike…..This is the biggest problem here, with you, you ADD to what is “ACTUALLY” Said , you not only do that with what i Say, but you also add to what Scriptures “ACTUALLY SAY”, as all Trinitarians and Preexistences do. Show us one place where i said i was “WRONG” about that post. Like Jammin says i will give you a 1000 yrs if you see the word “WRONG” in what i say, just becasue Kerwin may have understood it clearer, if i add some commas, is no admition by him or me that what i posted is wrong, Abe sure understood it “CLEARLY” as posted. But not You!Your problem is your are constintely looking for faults instead of trying to see it from what the overall context is saying and once you fail in that then, you introduce other topics or words to try to further discredit a perso, BAD FORM Mike! Not even to mention that was all written “IMO”, I am not teaching “DOGMAS”, it just what “I” think that all. Just as what you say is your opinions also, even if you are quoting scripture and then tell us what the scripture is not “SPECIFFICALLY” Saying “IMO”, as i have told you many time before. You add you interputation which is OK but that is Just “YOUR OPINIONS> IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Gene,
You really should stop already. You are embarrassing yourself.
Kerwin already acknowledged that your words contradicted themselves. To help you save face, he and Abe both offered, “we understood what he MEANT”.
But did they really?
Gene, did you mean that our struggle is against spirit beings who are rulers, powers, and authorities in this dark world and in the heavenly realms?
Because THAT is what Paul was teaching. And THAT is also what Kerwin and Abe are THINKING you meant.
So why not just tell them you posted it exactly as you meant to post it, because you don't believe Paul was talking about spirit beings?
Why not just tell them that you can't allow yourself to understand it the way Paul wrote it, because you don't believe there exists such a thing as a “spirit being“?
Mile…….So now you say Kerwin and Abe were lying, about understanding the post, is there any end to your BS, and what i said, is we wrestle against evil spirits “working” (IN) flesh and blood human beings who are in High Places of Authority on this earthy these Evil Spirit which Paul called rulers of darkness are “IN” human beings influencing them, like “liars”, thieves, murders, child abusers, drug dealers, and not only in this world, but evil spirits in the heavenly places also.
Mike, any half wit should be able to understand that. Just look at all the people in this world suffering because of these evil spirits “WORKING” in people, and even evil Leaders who have power over peoples lives. These are human beings, any simpleton can easily understand that.
To eliminate human beings from these Evil Spirit “influences” is illogical and unrealistic. Just turn on your News on tv and come back and tell us if flesh and blood human are not involved in this worlds sufferings, What Paul does is “seperate” the person from what is “DRIVING” that Person, the evil Spirit infuences working “IN” them and the earth, So the “root cause” of the problem is not flesh and blood bodies of humans, but evil Sprits working “IN” them. That was and is Pauls Point. GET IT>
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
Gene, Mike, Abe, and others,
I believe Satan is the chief of the angels that walk according to the satan spirit. We are instructed to resist him. We also fight the satan spirit that is within us. In addition we fight the satan spirit that is in others.
We do not use the weapons of this world, or their heavenly counterpart in our battles. Instead we use the armaments of God.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
