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Quote (2besee @ Dec. 06 2012,01:44) If no-one else knows his name, does that mean God does not know his name?
Of course not, 2B.Revelation 2:17
I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.Does that mean God won't know the names of these people?
Or does it mean that these people ARE God?
You have picked a bad reason to decide that the Word of God in Rev 19:13 is not Jesus. Rev 19:11-16 is ALL about Jesus. It doesn't stop in the middle to call Jehovah the Word OF God, and then go back to talking about Jesus.
2Besee………….Jesus ask Peter who do you say I am , and Peter responded , you are the son of the living God, Now notice what Jesus said , Blessed are you Simon Barjona because flesh and blood did not reveal it unto you but my Father which is in Heave has “revealed” it unto you, and i say unto you, you are Peter, and upon this ROCK I shall “BUILD” the Church and the gates of hell shall prevail against it. That “Rock” is the (Power of God) to get into the mind of a person and reaveal truth unto him.
It is God who reveals to us the truth about Jesus and his words, and how He was “IN” Jesus by his Sprit and produced His (GOD”S) words that are Spirit and must be Spritually understood. You have laid aside all teaching of organized religions and trusted in Our God alone and He is revealing the truth unto you.
This is the way all true Saints of God are taught it is by “DIRECT” Revelation from GOD himself. But as you have been shown, in order for this to take place it helps when we come to believe in ONLY ONE GOD.
Jesus also said know you not you shall all be taught by GOD and again, “No man can come unto me except the Father draw him” ,Many try but few there be that are Chosen by GOD Himself.
Seeking your understanding first from GOD himself is the right way and the proof is in what He is revealing to you brother. The words of Jesus also will make sense to you as we grow in grace and knowledge. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………gene
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 06 2012,01:44) Too many people twist Paul's words…………..I will skip instead to Hebrews……….by whom also he made the ages (*aionos)……….
Hebrews 1:2 NET
…….through whom he created the world. 2Footnote #2 says:
Greek: “the ages.”The temporal (ages) came to be used of the spatial (what exists in those time periods). See Heb 11:3 for the same usage.
What that means is that the experts who translate the Greek scriptures into English have determined that the word “aion” is often used in ancient Greek literature (not just the scriptures) to refer to the THINGS that came to be DURING those ages. Ie: If God created the AGE in which the universe came to be, it stands to reason that He also created the universe that came to be during that age He created.
But I will tip my hat to you, for you are technically correct on this one.
Good research! Let's use 1 Cor 8:6 then, for it seems to be pretty straightforward, and not part of Paul's writings that are “hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist” – as pointed out by Peter.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.What do you suppose the “all things” that came FROM God include? Whatever your assumption in that matter, it should also match up with the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus. In other words, if “the universe” is one of the “all things” that came FROM God, then “the universe” is also one of the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus.
How about Colossians 1:16?
For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.
In this scripture, Paul doesn't even leave anything to chance, does he? He point blank tells us what the “all things” include, right? Those are the things that were created through Jesus, 2B. (The same “all things” that were created through the Word.)
I consider it weakness on your part to use the words of Peter as a reason to discredit any words of Paul that don't fit into your own doctrine. It is not right for you to just blow off 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16 as being “hard to understand” – just because those teachings don't align with your doctrine.
Neither of those two teachings are hard for anybody to understand.
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 06 2012,01:44) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) This particular Word from John 1:1 became flesh, and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten Son. Yes.
Well then, doesn't it stand to reason that the Word who became flesh WAS the only begotten Son of God?Who else would have that glory, except the real thing?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2012,12:51) But I will tip my hat to you, for you are technically correct on this one. Good research! Thank you.
Quote I consider it weakness on your part to use the words of Peter as a reason to discredit any words of Paul that don't fit into your own doctrine. It is not right for you to just blow off 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16 as being “hard to understand” – just because those teachings don't align with your doctrine. Neither of those two teachings are hard for anybody to understand.
From the beginning of my being led to scriptures, I was never shown Paul.
So no, you are wrong in what you just said Mike.
Please stick to the OT, Jesus, the Gospels, and the Disciples. thank you!
Just to make a point though, that I have looked into it, well, one so far – here are my study notes:
This the Greek with two alternative meanings to the same words in Strong's used:
who is
image
of the
God
invisible
firstborn
of
all creation
because
in or at –(en, ἐν, in, on, at, by, with, among)
him
were
created
all things
in the heavens
and
upon
the earth
the
visible
and the
invisible
whether
thrones
or
lordships
or
principalities
or
authorities
all things
on account of – (dia, διά, through, on account of, because of)
him
and
for
him
have been created.If we take all of the Bible into consideration, we have certain facts which were made clear in the OT, such as 'the world was created through only one God', as it says, and this makes sense.
Here is the Greek all together, with the alternative meanings to the two words (as seen above) made:
who is the image of the God invisible *firstborn of all creation* (Paul gets to that)… because at (towards) him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or principalities or authorities, ALL THINGS ON ACCOUNT OF HIM AND FOR HIM have been created *and he is before all, and all things in him hold together*….. why?…… Paul goes onto explain why….. HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY THE CHURCH, who is THE BEGINNING, FIRSTBORN FROM AMONG THE DEAD, that might be in all things he holding first place…………. BECAUSE…………… in him WAS PLEASED ALL THE FULLNESS (of The Holy Spirit, God) TO DWELL, AND BY HIM TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF (to God) HAVING MADE PEACE BY THE BLOOD OF THE CROSS OF HIM, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
http://biblos.com/colossians/1-15.htm
http://biblos.com/colossians/1-16.htm
http://biblos.com/colossians/1-17.htm
http://biblos.com/colossians/1-18.htm———————
But, that is just for your information, not discussion!
Have to get to the rest on another day.
Okay I am more alert now it was really late last night when I looked at that last verse of Paul's.
1 Cor 8:6
The two words translated as 'by' (i.e 'one God the Father BY whom are all things and one Lord Christ BY whom are all things) are different words: 'ek' for the Father and 'dia' for the son, and both have different meanings. 'Ek' for the Father is simply 'from' or 'out of' whereas 'dia' for the Son can mean 'because of or on account of or through'. If Paul meanr for the second example of 'through' to be the same as the first use of 'through' then why would Paul use a different word for the Son? Yet the translators translated them both as the same thing.
but
to us
one
God,
The Father,
from –ek, ἐκ, from, out of
whom
the things
all,
and
we
for
him;
and
one
Lord
Christos, the annointed one/messiah
because of –dia, διά,on account of, through, because of
whom
the things
all,
and
we
by
him.That was all taken from biblos.com
http://biblos.com/1_corinthians/8-6.htmSee the thing with Paul is that people have to WADE THROUGH all of his writings to see what point he is actually making. They also have to have an accurate understanding of what he meant such as the world was created through only one God!!
OU CANNOT TAKE PAUL OUT OF CONTEXT, AND HIS POINT IS OFTEN AFTER WHOLE CHAPTERS HAVE BEEN PAST THROUGH.
And then there are other issues with Paul as well but that is another subject.
The world was only create by ONE God there were not TWO Gods creating.
Why would you understand it as such?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2012,11:16) Hi 2B, You believe that Jesus is a god, right? Do you believe that Jesus is now Jehovah the Father? Or a DIFFERENT god?
You asked me: 'Do I beleive that Jesus is now YHVH the Father'…………….Of course I do not believe that Jesus is YHVH.
Quote Quote ….and as scripture says, that word and spirit is a part of God and IS God. No scripture ever makes such an asinine claim as that, 2B. Please read my last post to Ed J (7th post on the previous page). Things that are OF a person are not also that person. For example, my spirit is with me, but you cannot logically say EITHER of the following things:
1. Mike's Mike is with him.
2. Mike Mike is with him.
See? Since MY spirit is not “Mike”, you can't call MY spirit “Mike”. Get it? The spirit OF Mike is not also “Mike”.
Likewise, neither the Spirit nor the Word OF Jehovah is also Jehovah Himself. They are instead POSSESSIONS OF Him. (After all, that is what the word “OF” indicates, right?)
But just to make sure, do a quick and simple test in the scriptures, 2B. Replace the word “Spirit” with the word “Jehovah” any time the “Holy Spirit OF God” is mentioned – and see how that works out for you. Then do the same thing any time the “word OF God” is mentioned.
Try Matthew 3:16 for starters. Did the “God of God” descend upon Jesus at his baptism? Did the “God God” descend upon him?
Then check Luke 3:2 out. Did the “God of God” come to John in the desert? Did the “God God” come to him?
Do this test with any scripture you choose, 2B. Let me know what you find out.
I will give it some thought, and get back to you:)
Quote Quote What was in him was the Word of God…………. I knew we'd get to this point sooner or later, 2B. Why? Because I've already been down this road with Ed and Gene a bunch of times.
Notice the word “in”, that you used in your statement above. And then answer one simple question:
Does John 1:14 say the Word BECAME flesh?
Or that the Word CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS ALREADY FLESH?
Which one does the scripture actually say?
You asked:
'Does John 1:14 say that 'The Word' BECAME flesh or that 'The Word' CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS ALREADY FLESH.What difference does it make? The Word (God's own spoken word) was turned into flesh, made real, made alive, walked among us……
Think about this verse (as one example, there are many more):
''What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God.
Even as God said, “I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”Quote Quote If no-one else knows his name, does that mean God does not know his name? Of course not, 2B.
Revelation 2:17
I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.Does that mean God won't know the names of these people?
Or does it mean that these people ARE God?
You have picked a bad reason to decide that the Word of God in Rev 19:13 is not Jesus. Rev 19:11-16 is ALL about Jesus. It doesn't stop in the middle to call Jehovah the Word OF God, and then go back to talking about Jesus.
The Word of God and Jesus are often seen as one in Revelations.
This is due to the fact that the Word of God was clothed in the Body of Jesus.
2bb
Quote This is due to the fact that the Word of God was clothed in the Body of Jesus. could you show a scripture that says that
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 07 2012,06:30) because
in or at –(en, ἐν, in, on, at, by, with, among)
him
were
created
all things
in the heavens
And what does it mean to say that God created all things in heaven “IN”, or “AT” Jesus?Quote (2besee @ Dec. 07 2012,06:30) all things
on account of – (dia, διά, through, on account of, because of)
him
and
for
him
have been created.
In what way do you suppose God created the dinosaurs “on account of” Jesus?Oh, and I forgot to respond to your post about the Greek word “autos” yesterday. What you failed to notice is that the Word was referred to by SINGULAR MASCULINE form of the word “autos” – which requires an English translation of “him”, not “it” in John 1:3. (You can find this information on Biblos.com, right along with the info you posted.)
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 07 2012,17:16) and
one
Lord
Christos, the annointed one/messiah
because of –dia, διά,on account of, through, because of
whom
the things
all,
Again, in what way do you suppose the dinosaurs were created “because of” Jesus?Quote (2besee @ Dec. 07 2012,17:19) The world was only create by ONE God there were not TWO Gods creating.
Why would you understand it as such?
Okay 2B,Let me say this YET AGAIN, and hope that you will HEAR IT this time:
I have NEVER in my life thought that “two Gods” created all things. I have NEVER claimed that Jesus created one single thing. I have ALWAYS maintained that God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, created all things. Do you understand these words that I wrote?
Listen to my two examples ONCE AGAIN:
1. I agree with Tertullian, who wrote, He who creates is ONE, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is ANOTHER.
Do you understand THOSE words that I wrote? Only ONE created.
2. Scripture says that God created all things THROUGH Jesus Christ. If YOU think that means Jesus created one single thing, then read the above green words again – because it DOESN'T mean that.
Consider that God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, created me. Now consider that He did that THROUGH my parents. Does that mean my parents are capable of CREATING a human life on their own? NO! GOD did the creating, ALONE and BY HIMSELF. But He did it THROUGH my parents.
Do you understand THOSE words that I wrote?
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 07 2012,17:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2012,11:16) Hi 2B, You believe that Jesus is a god, right? Do you believe that Jesus is now Jehovah the Father? Or a DIFFERENT god?
You asked me: 'Do I beleive that Jesus is now YHVH the Father'…………….Of course I do not believe that Jesus is YHVH.
So then Jesus is a DIFFERENT god than Jehovah, right?Quote (2besee @ Dec. 07 2012,17:58) You asked:
'Does John 1:14 say that 'The Word' BECAME flesh or that 'The Word' CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS ALREADY FLESH.What difference does it make?
Hmmmm………….You ask what difference it makes?
1. The Holy Spirit BECAME John the Baptist.
2. The Holy Spirit CAME TO BE IN John the Baptist.
One of those statements is true and logical. The other is not.
1. The Word BECAME flesh.
2. The Word CAME TO BE IN someone who was flesh.
Which one does John 1:14 say happened?
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 07 2012,17:58) The Word of God and Jesus are often seen as one in Revelations. This is due to the fact that the Word of God was clothed in the Body of Jesus.
No, it's because they ARE one and the same. Jesus is called “the Word of God” because he is God's main spokesman.In ancient times, the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was called “the Word of the King”.
Hi Mike,
I feel like you are ignoring the 'key points I have shown you' and are instead going onto the smaller things and not only that but you are also doing the exact opposite of what I requested.
I requested that you do not bring Paul into this. We are saved by the words of Jesus not necessarily PAUL'S WORDS – ESPECIALLY if they go against the very words of Jesus. Have you ever looked at the contradictions between Jesus' words and Paul's words? Have you ever got into a debate with someone who says that PAUL said that the commandments of God were done away with? Well, that is just one example. Jesus never said that.
So much more that I could get into with Paul.
But that is another topic which I will save because no-one would hear me anyway and I have no intent on making anyone see my point of view regarding Paul. Each to their own.As for this discussion…No PAUL in it, thank-you.
All that we need is the words of Jesus who is supposed to be our only teacher, and the Apostles whom he sent.
As I said, I saw this years ago – several years ago – when I first picked up the scriptures and read them.
It is purely coincidental that Paul's words not quite fitting into what I have come to see.
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