In the Beginning

[2besee]

Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2013,15:46)

Quote (2besee @ April 04 2013,08:27) Anyway I am done here. Thanks for the conversation all. I have heard enough in one day from T and from Journey, and this is not spiritually healthy at all. 2bee I felt the same way went i first came here ,and never ad teach anyone but friends and relatives ,after being studying for 45 years the scriptures , and so I had to think what is really happen here is that my knowledge was put to the test ,and so i defend it with scriptures ,and find that not many here have truth that they really can defend with scriptures ,and so i stayed ,and see what is here to learn or to give understanding of the various ways of seeing things from many angles ,but the truth of God in scriptures is, many times not what we think it is but what we wish and would like it to be ,and this is wrong , GOD'S TRUTH HIS AN DOUBLE EDGE SWORD AND IT CAN HURT DEEP ,AND PAINFUL ;BUT DO WE LOVE THE TRUTH MORE AND SO ACCEPT THE WISDOM OF GOD CORRECTION FOR OUR OWN GOOD I HOPE YOU CAN ANSWER THIS IN YOUR OWN HEART AND SOUL MY FRIEND

Thanks for your honesty, T.

You speak wise and very true words sometimes, and I have told you that in the beginning. (Remember?)

Peace to you, T.

[2besee]

Quote (abe @ April 04 2013,16:51)

Quote (2besee @ April 03 2013,16:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,12:13) Quote (abe @ April 02 2013,20:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 02 2013,16:34) Quote (abe @ April 01 2013,20:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2013,17:40) Quote (terraricca @ April 01 2013,11:40) The fact that Christ is resurrected  from the dead it does not make him the holy spirit ,right ? I'd like to hear Abe's answer as well. Hi Mike, Gal.4:6   Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” Peace. That is a scripture, Abe………… not an answer to Pierre's question. Please answer his question DIRECTLY, because your scripture surely isn't saying that Jesus became the Holy Spirit upon his resurrection. Hi Mike, Gal.4:6   Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” Mike you are in complete  DENIAL  on this verse? Do you understand that? Peace brother.. Abe, As Pierre and I have clearly pointed out to you, we aren't even able to see what it is you think this verse is claiming.  How can we be “in denial” about something when we don't even know what that something is?   Are you claiming that “the spirit of the Son” in that verse is the Holy Spirit?  If so, then just PLAINLY say as much. If not, then what exactly ARE you claiming from that verse? Hi Abe, Complete denial? Hi 2b, Jn.18:38     What is truth?

Jn 18:38. Truth was crucified.

[Lightenup]

Quote

So, if the entire being of God Almighty is NOT a creation, but has always existed, then it likewise stands to reason that all parts OF that eternally existing being have also existed from eternity, right?

So you say Mike, but you deny the eternal existence when it is the Word of God, the Wisdom of God, the Arm of God…

[2besee]

Quote (abe @ April 04 2013,16:51)

Hi 2b, Jn.18:38     What is truth?

Hi Abe.
What is the truth?

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me” (John 14:8-11)

“And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” (1John 5:20)

“If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” (John 8:32)

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” (John 3:36)

“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly” (John 10:10)

You have an anointing from the Holy One and know all things. (1 John 2:20)

I write this to you about those who would deceive you; but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.   (1John 2:26-27)

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,15:39)

Quote (2besee @ April 03 2013,18:57) Theos in B = The entire being of God,  I agree. Theos in C = The entire being of God. But you just got done telling me that the theos in part c was “a part of God“, right? Surely a “part of” God isn't the same as “the entire being of God”, right?

Hi Mike. It is just awkwardly worded. I understand it the way that I do, but not through my own understanding.

[2besee]

T, I apologize. I should have handled things a lot better than I did yesterday. I am learning to!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,13:58)

Quote So, if the entire being of God Almighty is NOT a creation, but has always existed, then it likewise stands to reason that all parts OF that eternally existing being have also existed from eternity, right? So you say Mike, but you deny the eternal existence when it is the Word of God, the Wisdom of God, the Arm of God…

Kathi,

The Word of God – AS IT IS APPLIED AS A TITLE FOR GOD'S SPOKESMAN, JESUS CHRIST – is not a “part of” God.

The same goes for Jesus' titles “Wisdom” and “Arm”.

Surely you are smart enough realize the difference, right?

Kathi, why do you suppose you keep coming to this thread, where I'm arguing against these others in favor of something you and I both believe, but your comments are always unrelated little nitpicks against MY posts?

Why can't we be adversaries and rivals in the “Jesus is God Almighty” debate, but fellow preachers of scriptural truth in the “Pre-existent” debate?  

We could, IF your sole reason for being on HN was to present scriptural truth to others, right?  Maybe you have other agendas you must also adhere to, huh?

I have no such other agendas, Kathi.  That's why, when I butted into your and Kerwin's “Root and Branch” discussion, I advocated for the TRUTH – despite the fact that you and I have been at war about this “Jesus is God Almighty” thing for years.  I didn't go nitpicking YOUR posts, just because we disagree on other issues, did I?  Nope.  Instead, I BACKED your posts, simply because you were presenting the scriptural and logical truth of the matter, right?

Now, on the particular post to which you commented, I was trying to convince Abe that God never created His Holy Spirit, but that it has always been a part of the eternally existing Creator of all things.   And you agree with ME about that, don't you?

So why not let your emotions take a backseat for a while, and remember why you're on HN in the first place?  Then perhaps you can help me find a scriptural way to convince Abe that God's Holy Spirit was NOT created.  And in doing so, you will be doing exactly what you SHOULD BE doing on this site – spreading the TRUTH of the scriptures.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ April 04 2013,14:12)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,15:39) Quote (2besee @ April 03 2013,18:57) Theos in B = The entire being of God,  I agree. Theos in C = The entire being of God. But you just got done telling me that the theos in part c was “a part of God“, right? Surely a “part of” God isn't the same as “the entire being of God”, right? Hi Mike. It is just awkwardly worded. I understand it the way that I do, but not through my own understanding.

2B,

Why do you think the spirit who is guiding you would cause you to come to an understanding which requires a “part of” God to be the “entire being of God”?

Have you tested this spirit against your God-given common sense and scripture?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2013,23:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,05:40) John 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. Where are the scriptures that teach us that John the Baptist came to testify about the Holy Spirit at all – let alone “the Holy Spirit Son of God”? Mike, I gave you some Scriptures and you chose not to believe them as evidence.  That is your choice but your choice is not necessary what is correct.

Which scripture did you give me as an answer to my current question, Kerwin?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2013,10:15)

The Word of God – AS IT IS APPLIED AS A TITLE FOR GOD'S SPOKESMAN, JESUS CHRIST – is not a “part of” God. The same goes for Jesus' titles “Wisdom” and “Arm”.

Hi Mike

Can you please show us where Jesus' title as “Wisdom” is located?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2013,11:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,05:40) Okay All, It is clear that none of you can actually show any scripture that says God's Holy Spirit is one of His sons.  And now we have 2B and Gene threatening to walk away from the discussion because it is not going their way. In light of this fact, I will speed up the “Holy Spirit Son of God” comparisons of John 1. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. Where are the scriptures that teach us that John the Baptist came to testify about the Holy Spirit at all – let alone “the Holy Spirit Son of God”? I showed you MANY scriptures that tell us exactly who the light was that John testified about, right?  And that “light of the world” was Jesus Christ, right?  And it is CLEARLY taught, over and over in scripture, that John came to testify about Jesus, right? Now it's your turn, guys.  Where is the scripture that says John testified one single thing about the “Holy Spirit Son of God”? Mike, I gave you some Scriptures and you chose not to believe them as evidence.  That is your choice but your choice is not necessary what is correct.

K
if you have it right ,then all scriptures should support it ,

but it seems you can not answer those question based on scriptures ,so how could your scripture be right ,

so show your scriptures versus Mikes scriptures and show all that you have the evidence side by side ,if not you can learn some thing ,right

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ April 04 2013,14:56)

Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2013,15:46) Quote (2besee @ April 04 2013,08:27) Anyway I am done here. Thanks for the conversation all. I have heard enough in one day from T and from Journey, and this is not spiritually healthy at all. 2bee I felt the same way went i first came here ,and never ad teach anyone but friends and relatives ,after being studying for 45 years the scriptures , and so I had to think what is really happen here is that my knowledge was put to the test ,and so i defend it with scriptures ,and find that not many here have truth that they really can defend with scriptures ,and so i stayed ,and see what is here to learn or to give understanding of the various ways of seeing things from many angles ,but the truth of God in scriptures is, many times not what we think it is but what we wish and would like it to be ,and this is wrong , GOD'S TRUTH HIS AN DOUBLE EDGE SWORD AND IT CAN HURT DEEP ,AND PAINFUL ;BUT DO WE LOVE THE TRUTH MORE AND SO ACCEPT THE WISDOM OF GOD CORRECTION FOR OUR OWN GOOD I HOPE YOU CAN ANSWER THIS IN YOUR OWN HEART AND SOUL MY FRIEND Thanks for your honesty, T. You speak wise and very true words sometimes, and I have told you that in the beginning. (Remember?) Peace to you, T.

2bee

understand that i only respond to text and the way it is presented ,that's all i have ,

so if i see that a person comes on with power in speech and what he says is not according to scriptures ,then i go in in a DIRECT WAY and either ask question or tell he is wrong and those things are lies ,and prove it with scriptures ,

but wen i see a person willing to learn then i will be different in approach,like wen Jesus saw the “money exchanges”and the animal trading in the temple ,he became in flame,but at other time he felt compassion and told “the sermon on the mountain””

2bee I live by the truth and look for more true understanding NOT LESS

if you have only read the bible 2 0r 3 times trust me you are on milk ,the day you can answer the “why's,when's,how's,what's and who's “” i would like to talk to you ,to give me light

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ April 05 2013,07:06)

Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2013,11:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,05:40) Okay All, It is clear that none of you can actually show any scripture that says God's Holy Spirit is one of His sons.  And now we have 2B and Gene threatening to walk away from the discussion because it is not going their way. In light of this fact, I will speed up the “Holy Spirit Son of God” comparisons of John 1. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. Where are the scriptures that teach us that John the Baptist came to testify about the Holy Spirit at all – let alone “the Holy Spirit Son of God”? I showed you MANY scriptures that tell us exactly who the light was that John testified about, right?  And that “light of the world” was Jesus Christ, right?  And it is CLEARLY taught, over and over in scripture, that John came to testify about Jesus, right? Now it's your turn, guys.  Where is the scripture that says John testified one single thing about the “Holy Spirit Son of God”? Mike, I gave you some Scriptures and you chose not to believe them as evidence.  That is your choice but your choice is not necessary what is correct. K if you have it right ,then all scriptures should support it , but it seems you can not answer those question based on scriptures ,so how could your scripture be right , so show your scriptures versus Mikes scriptures and show all that you have the evidence side by side ,if not you can learn some thing ,right

T,

Mike has not shown a scripture.  He showed an alternative translation based on the shifting meaning of an ancient Greek word.

He does not believe one possible translation and so he looked for one he did believe.

The Spirit knows all things of Jehovah and is at Jehovah's bosom.  All things were revealed to Jesus.

Which of the two had all things given and/or shown to them?

Which of the two has and knows all things by nature?

John 3:35
King James Version (KJV)

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.  

John 5:20
King James Version (KJV)

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
1 Corinthians 2:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ April 04 2013,17:29)

Hi Mike Can you please show us where Jesus' title as “Wisdom” is located? God bless Ed J

Proverbs 8, and 1 Cor 1:24.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2013,19:48)

T, Mike has not shown a scripture.

What?  I went through every verse in John 1, and made a BIG list that showed how the same things were said about Jesus in other scriptures.  How can you say I have not shown scripture?  

(Pierre is talking about you putting your “the Word is the Holy Spirit Son of God” scriptures up against my recently compiled “the Word is Jesus” scriptures.  Perhaps you misunderstood him?)

Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2013,19:48)

Which of the two had all things given and/or shown to them? Which of the two has and knows all things by nature?

Those scriptures are great for showing that no one could know God better than His own spirit.  They are great for distinguishing Jesus and the Holy Spirit as two different things.

They are not so great for trying to prove that God's Holy Spirit is His Son.

And they are not so great as an answer to my most recent question, which is:

Kerwin, where are the scriptures that teach us that John the Baptist came to testify about the Holy Spirit at all – let alone “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?

I still await an answer to that one, Kerwin.

[kerwin]

Mike,

I did fail to read the context of what Pierre wrote but you do the same thing with John 1:1. Words have many meaning which make them like shifting sands.

You find a way to translate and interpret according to what you want to believe and discount other interpretations. Others do the same.

It is only those who are inspired by God that truly understand.

[abe]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,18:06)

Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2013,19:48) T, Mike has not shown a scripture. What?  I went through every verse in John 1, and made a BIG list that showed how the same things were said about Jesus in other scriptures.  How can you say I have not shown scripture?   (Pierre is talking about you putting your “the Word is the Holy Spirit Son of God” scriptures up against my recently compiled “the Word is Jesus” scriptures.  Perhaps you misunderstood him?) Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2013,19:48) Which of the two had all things given and/or shown to them? Which of the two has and knows all things by nature? Those scriptures are great for showing that no one could know God better than His own spirit.  They are great for distinguishing Jesus and the Holy Spirit as two different things. They are not so great for trying to prove that God's Holy Spirit is His Son. And they are not so great as an answer to my most recent question, which is: Kerwin, where are the scriptures that teach us that John the Baptist came to testify about the Holy Spirit at all – let alone “the Holy Spirit Son of God”? I still await an answer to that one, Kerwin.

Hi Mike,

(quote)
Kerwin, where are the scriptures that teach us that John the Baptist came to testify about the Holy Spirit at all – let alone “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?

Jn.1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me comes a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32And John bore record, saying, I saw the SPIRIT descending from heaven like a dove, and it stayed on him. 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said to me, On whom you shall see the SPIRIT descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizes with the Holy Ghost. 34And I saw, and bore record that this is the Son of God.

Jn.3:29 “He who has the BRIDE is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. 30“He must increase, but I must decrease.

And John bore record, saying, I saw the SPIRIT descending from heaven like a dove, and it stayed on him.

“He who has the BRIDE is the bridegroom;

The Spirit is the Bride.

Peace.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ April 05 2013,07:48)

Quote (terraricca @ April 05 2013,07:06) Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2013,11:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,05:40) Okay All, It is clear that none of you can actually show any scripture that says God's Holy Spirit is one of His sons.  And now we have 2B and Gene threatening to walk away from the discussion because it is not going their way. In light of this fact, I will speed up the “Holy Spirit Son of God” comparisons of John 1. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. Where are the scriptures that teach us that John the Baptist came to testify about the Holy Spirit at all – let alone “the Holy Spirit Son of God”? I showed you MANY scriptures that tell us exactly who the light was that John testified about, right?  And that “light of the world” was Jesus Christ, right?  And it is CLEARLY taught, over and over in scripture, that John came to testify about Jesus, right? Now it's your turn, guys.  Where is the scripture that says John testified one single thing about the “Holy Spirit Son of God”? Mike, I gave you some Scriptures and you chose not to believe them as evidence.  That is your choice but your choice is not necessary what is correct. K if you have it right ,then all scriptures should support it , but it seems you can not answer those question based on scriptures ,so how could your scripture be right , so show your scriptures versus Mikes scriptures and show all that you have the evidence side by side ,if not you can learn some thing ,right T, Mike has not shown a scripture.  He showed an alternative translation based on the shifting meaning of an ancient Greek word. He does not believe one possible translation and so he looked for one he did believe. The Spirit knows all things of Jehovah and is at Jehovah's bosom.  All things were revealed to Jesus. Which of the two had all things given and/or shown to them? Which of the two has and knows all things by nature? John 3:35 King James Version (KJV) 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.   John 5:20 King James Version (KJV) 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 1 Corinthians 2:11 King James Version (KJV) 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

K

Read your own quoted scriptures, then think; ……?..one of your scriptures is saying that God the father as shown all things he does to Christ ,……?  How did he do that

It also said that it is the spirit of man that knows the man,just as only the spirit of God that knows the things of God,right ? Yes

Understand that being a spirit in form as nothing to do with the spirit that we all are ,

It would be saying men are flesh so they would all think and do the same thing,but we do not all Have the same spirit for our souls are different so it is with God

[2besee]

Quote (abe @ April 05 2013,16:03)

Hi Mike, (quote) Kerwin, where are the scriptures that teach us that John the Baptist came to testify about the Holy Spirit at all – let alone “the Holy Spirit Son of God”? Jn.1:29   The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me comes a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32And John bore record, saying, I saw the    SPIRIT descending from heaven like a dove, and it stayed  on  him. 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said to me, On whom you shall see the SPIRIT   descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which   baptizes   with the    Holy Ghost.    34And I saw, and bore record that this is the     Son of God. Jn.3:29   “He who has the    BRIDE     is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. 30“He must increase, but I must decrease. And John bore record, saying, I saw the    SPIRIT descending from heaven like a dove, and it stayed  on  him. “He who has the    BRIDE     is the bridegroom; The Spirit is the Bride. Peace.

Abe, I'm starting to see it now.

Rev.21

[1] Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
[2] And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;
[3] and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them;
[4] he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”

——————

That is connected right?

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2013,12:17)

2B, Why do you think the spirit who is guiding you would cause you to come to an understanding which requires a “part of” God to be the “entire being of God”? Have you tested this spirit against your God-given common sense and scripture?

Mike,
Yes I have. I know the difference.

[Author]

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