In the Beginning

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 04 2012,14:01)

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 01 2012,23:14)

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 02 2012,11:17)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,22:32)

Consider what we know from scripture:
1. Jesus IS callled a god, like you said.
2. Jesus IS called “the Word” in Rev 19:13.
3. All things were said to have been created through “the Word” (John 1:3), and they are also said to have been created through Jesus (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2).
4. This particular Word from John 1:1 became flesh, and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten Son.
5. Jesus is called “the Word of Life” in 1 John 1.

There are more points I could make, but these should suffice.

And it seems to me that the only reason you claim the Word can't be Jesus is because there is only one god in existence. But we can't take those scriptures in Isaiah LITERALLY, because Jesus is also a god, right? And so is Satan, and many others.

Mike, could you please point out to me where it says that Jesus is called 'a god' thank you.

I just want to look at those verses.

And also don't forget this, thanks.

Isaiah 9:6, possibly Psalm 45:6, John 1:1, 1:18, 20:28, Hebrews 1:8……………..

Now would you address the 5 points I listed, one at a time, by number?

Thanks,

mike

Okay Mike, I will look at these verses that you gave me.

————

'For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name WILL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace'

WILL BE CALLED Mighty God. Yes, He is called (now) Mighty God, in this I do not dispute, but what does that have to do with the creation of the world and the creation being through only ONE God (as scriptures say)?

Will be called.

————–

'Your DIVING THRONE ENDURES FOREVER AND EVER.
YOUR ROYAL SCEPTER IS A SCEPTER OF EQUITY;
you love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness above your fellows'

This is talking about the throne and when did Jesus come into that throne but AFTER death.
When it says 'God, your God' that could be taken to mean 'therefore YHVH your God has anointed you, or, it could be saying that Jesus will be CALLED GOD because he overcome and then was given the throne.

Daniel 7.13-14.

I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion
and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

——————

''No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.”

No mention here of another God who was with the creator God Almighty creating also.

—————-

'Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

I will add to that verse (as I have done so already):

'Jesus said “Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father

God was in Him.

After all of the verses which I have shown you (and they were only a few, I could find more) which support the fact that only one God created the world… do you not have more verses to show your belief that there were two Gods creating the world – when scriptures show otherwise?

December 4, 2012 at 5:57 am#323430

Participant

Hi Ed, back later

December 4, 2012 at 11:41 pm#323456

Participant

This will take me some time Mike because I am studying, and Terraricca.

December 5, 2012 at 4:32 pm#323476

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 04 2012,02:16)

Ex 4:16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.

Terricca…………Notice the words as “IF” that does not say he was truly God now does it Pierre?

Now it says “THERES IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” and that has never changed or ever will change either. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene

December 5, 2012 at 4:39 pm#323478

Participant

2besee………..We are in total agreement that there is only one true God brother, all other “so called” gods are false gods. What is sad is people can't even begin to understand scriptures if they can even get that right IMO> Thanks Be to God he has shown us the fact that he is the “only” true God, the has ever existed and ever will exist.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………………….gen
e

December 6, 2012 at 12:19 am#323495

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 03 2012,22:30)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 04 2012,12:19)

2B,

Well, God-given common sense should tell ANYONE that “God” cannot be WITH “God”. That should be anyone's first clue.

Hi Mike,

Is your spirit not in fact “with you” now?
When you are dead, they will say “Mike is dead”.
But will your spirit still be there, in what they say is Mike? … this is also “common sense”.

Ed,

Is “the spirit of mikeboll64″ actually “mikeboll64”?

When you ask me if “my spirit” is with me, could you ask the same thing by saying, “Mike, is your Mike with you?” In fact, is there any instance you can think of where you could use the words, “Mike was with Mike”, and only be talking about ME?

If you cannot, then “the spirit of Mike” is not “Mike”. (Another common sense thing many people here seem to ignore are the words “my”, “your”, “his”, and “of”. The first three are POSSESSIVE pronouns, designed to speak of things a person POSSESSES – not of that person himself. The last word is not a pronoun, but is also used to speak of the POSSESSIONS of a person. Ie: “The Spirit OF God” is something God POSSESSES – hence the word “of”. “MY spirit is something I POSSESS – hence the possessive pronoun “my”.

Ed, when you get to the point that you can say, “Mike, isn't your Mike with you?”, and people will just know you're talking about “MY spirit”, or “MY word”, or “MY mind”, or whatever else BELONGS TO me, then you'll have a point.

Until that time, try to understand that I am “Mike”, and “MY spirit” is not “Mike”, but something that Mike POSSESSES.

December 6, 2012 at 12:56 am#323496

Blocked

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 03 2012,22:56)

After all of the verses which I have shown you (and they were only a few, I could find more) which support the fact that only one God created the world… do you not have more verses to show your belief that there were two Gods creating the world – when scriptures show otherwise?

I have never stated that more than one God created ANYTHING. Jehovah the Father, alone and by Himself created ALL things. I have never argued anything different. But Jehovah the Father created ME, right? And He did that “alone” and “by Himself”, right? Yet He also did that through my parents, grandparents, great grandparents, Noah, Adam, etc., right?

Scriptures CLEARLY teach that God created all things THROUGH His holy servant Jesus Christ. To me, this doesn't mean Jesus created anything. In fact, I OFTEN quote these words from Tertullian:

He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing was created is another.

So, my friend, it would seem that you and I are on the same page on many scriptural issues. We both believe God alone created all things. We both believe He is not only OUR God, but also the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. We even agree on the following:

Quote

His name WILL BE CALLED……….Mighty God………

WILL BE CALLED Mighty God. Yes, He is called (now) Mighty God, in this I do not dispute…….

Good. The point I'm trying to make with this is that when Jehovah said there was no god beside Him, He wasn't LITERALLY claiming to be the only being in existence that was called a god. He was speaking EMPHATICALLY, placing Himself ABOVE any others who were called gods.

Similarly, in 1 Cor 8:6, Paul wasn't LITERALLY claiming that Jesus is the only lord in existence. He wasn't trying to tell us that our earthly lords were “false lords”, or “so-called lords”. He wasn't trying to teach us that “the Lord of heaven and earth”, (Jesus' own Father and God), was NOT a Lord over us.

Instead, he was using EMPHATICAL speech, designed to place Jesus as our HIGHEST Lord – not literally our ONLY Lord. (And when I say “HIGHEST”, it is with the assumed understanding of the reader that I don't place God's servant Jesus ABOVE the God he serves. Paul was listing God and Jesus in a hierarchy – like the one he outlined for us in 1 Cor 11:3.)

Anyway, the point of all this is to help you to understand that Jehovah is NOT the only god in existence. Scripture speaks of MANY gods, including Jesus. So just knowing this scriptural FACT should be enough to make you at least think about the possibility of Jesus being the god who was with THE GOD in the beginning.

Once you accept this reasonable possibility, then all else will fall into place for you. For example:

1. John 1:3 says all things were created through the Word. Weren't all things created through Jesus? YES.

2. The Word became flesh. Wasn't Jesus existing in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being? YES. (Phil 2)

3. The Word dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son. Isn't Jesus God's only begotten Son? YES.

4. John the Baptist said the Word, who was coming behind him, had surpassed him. Didn't he say the same exact words in verse 29 about Jesus? YES.

5. Isn't Jesus explicitely called “the Word” in Rev 19:13? YES.

And on and on and on we could go.

(Btw, you addressed Psalm 45:7. The verse I pointed you to was 45:6…………. Your throne O God, will last for ever and ever. Even if this psalm is not about Jesus, Paul attributed these words to him in Heb 1:8. )

2B, all I want you to realize, first and foremost, is that Jesus is called a god in scripture, which means Jehovah is NOT literally the only god in existence. Are we now agreed on this scriptural fact?

December 6, 2012 at 8:44 am#323520

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 04 2012,14:01)

Now would you address the 5 points I listed, one at a time, by number?

Thanks,

mike

Quote

1. Jesus IS called a god, like you said.

Jesus the man is now called a God in scripture, yes.

What was in him was the Word of God, the ETERNAL SPIRIT of God, not a separate God. As it says, God ALONE created the earth and all that is in it through his word and spirit, and as scripture says, that word and spirit is a part of God and IS God.

Quote

2. Jesus IS called “the Word” in Rev 19:13.

Quote

Rev.19
After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
for his judgments are true and just; he has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
Once more they cried, “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”
And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who is seated on the throne, saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!”
And from the throne came a voice crying, “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, small and great.”
Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure” — for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”
Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

This shows us that God Almighty sits on the throne and is worshiped (Daniel 7), and then the marriage of the lamb (Jesus) has come, and it is given to his bride (the saints) to be clothed in fine linen; the fine linen is their righteous deeds. And then there are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the lamb, and then John falls down at the Angel's feet and he is told not to do that – he is told to worship God – for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:11-16

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself.
He is clad in a robe (Jesus' Body perhaps) dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses.
From his (Jesus') mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

First we see in Rev 19 Jesus is the lamb, He is NAMED in verse 10 as Jesus, but then chapters 11-16 say that the rider on the white horse “has a name inscribed which no one else knows but he himself' though he is called The Word of God.

If no-one else knows his name, does that mean God does not know his name? No! Because 'The Word' is of God and is God. (John 1:1).

So we have Jesus the man (who was slain as the lamb of God), and then we have the word (who is the spirit of God and also is God).

'He (the word) is called faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. He is clad in a robe dipped in blood (Possible, the robe dipped in blood was the flesh body, Jesus, which he, the spirit, was 'dressed in'…. 'A body you have prepared for me' ….). He smites the nations with a sharp sword of his mouth (The Word). He will rule them with a rod of iron. He is the King of Kings and the Lord of lords.

So we see in Rev 19 the words 'the faithful and true witness' which is also seen in Rev 3:14

“And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.“

The beginning of God's creation….

This is not saying that The Word was ever created, it is saying that the world was created through him.

'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.'

The first thing that happened was God's Spirit moved over the waters; and then God spoke.

————————

'He smites the nations with a sharp sword from his mouth (His Words)'

Revelations 2:16,

'Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

He will war against them with the word of his mouth, he who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.

——————

'He will rule them with a rod of iron'

Rev 2:27:

'He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

The 'conquerers' are also given power to rule over the nations with a rod of iron, as Jesus also conquered and was given the power to rule.

—————–

'He is the King of Kings and the Lord of lords.'

Rev 17:14,

'They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.'

1Tim 6:14-16,

'I charge you to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ; and this will be made manifest at the proper time……………. by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.'

This is the Lord God Almighty; the Father.

So, what do we do now?

Jesus the lamb is called the Lord of lords and the King of kings, and God Almighty is also called the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

This is answered with the following verse:

'That they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.'

Quote

3. All things were said to have been created through “the Word” (John 1:3)…………………………

All things were created through the Word, yes, as the OT tells us.

And that Word was made flesh.

Only one God created the heavens and the earth and that one God through his spirit came down and manifested himself in Jesus Christ. The Father was in him, in spirit, doing the works.

same question continued:

Quote

…………….and they are also said to have been created through Jesus (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Hebrews 1:2)

Please read the OP. Too many people twist Paul's words, including the translations.

2nd Peter 3:15-17

Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you; as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

I will skip instead to Hebrews, (Possibly not written by Paul)

Here is the original Greek wording quoted from Biblos.com

'In many parts and in many ways of old, God, having spoken to the fathers, in the prophets; in last the days these, he spoke to us in Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the ages (*aionos), who being radiance of the glory, and exact expression of the substance of him, upholding moreover all things by the word of the power of him, purification of sins having made, sat down on right hand of the Majesty on high. by so much better having become than the angels, as much as more excellent beyond them, he has inherited a name. to which indeed said he ever of the angels, Son of me are you; I today have begotten you? and again, I will be to him for Father, and he will be to me for Son? When moreover again he brings in the first-born, into the world, he says, And let worship him, all angels of God. And as to indeed the angels he says, Who makes the angels of him winds, and the ministers of him, of fire a flame; unto however the Son, the throne of you, O God, to the ages (*aionos) of the ages (*aionos), and the scepter of righteousness the scepter of the kingdom of you. You did love righteousness and did hate lawlessness; because of this, anointed you God, the God of you, with the oil of exultation, above the companions of you. (men)

*aionos
aión: a space of time, an age
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

Daniel chapter 7.

————-

continuing on with Hebrews:

'………And You in beginning, Lord, the earth did found, and works of the hands of you, are the heavens (The world was created through the one God YHVH, and so the author of Hebrews would of had that in mind, so we know that this talking about God who alone created the world).
They will perish; you (Jesus) however remain; and all as a garment will grow old; and as a robe you will roll up them, like a garment also they will be changed; you however the same are, and the years of you will not end. to which moreover of the angels said he ever, Sit at right hand of me, until anyhow I might place the enemies of you, a footstool for the feet of you? Not all are they ministering spirits, for service being sent forth, on account of those being about to inherit salvation?'

Jesus was not an Angel but a Man, and the Word in him was definitely not an Angel or a created being, but the eternal spirit.

Quote

4. This particular Word from John 1:1 became flesh, and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

Yes.

Quote

5. Jesus is called “the Word of Life” in 1 John 1.

'our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.'

'God is light and in him is no darkness at all.'

' if we walk in the light, as he (God the Father) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.'

The light is God Almighty. The light is the Father of Jesus.

Go back to John 1. Who there is the light?

The light in 1st John is the Father. The light (The Father) came into the world in Spirit, and walked with man. God Almighty no-one has ever seen, he lives in unapproachable light. He could not and did not come down in totality, but he came down through the the eternal Spirit. The eternal Spirit came into the World.

1st Tim 3:16

'God was revealed in the flesh……
In Jesus Christ who was the 'begotten' son of God.
Jesus became the begotten son of God when he was conceived through the power of above, and also when the spirit came upon him at baptism, and then when he was begotten from the dead.

Go back to John 1…
'The Life' mentioned is also 'The Light' (same thing)

'In him (God the Father) was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.'

'The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made through him (God's eternal Spirit and word), yet the world knew him not.'

See 1st John 5-7 again – please.

'and the world was made through him, God is that light.

He (God's eternal spirit) was in the world, and the world was made through him.

But the world knew him not.

December 6, 2012 at 10:21 am#323529

http://biblos.com/john/1-1.htm

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 04 2012,14:19)

For example, can you scripturally refute any of the points that me and the NETNotes scholars made? Which ones? How do you refute them? Which scriptures will you use to refute them? Etc, etc, etc………………

Thanks.

In beginning
was
the Logos, – λόγος, ου, ὁ, a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.
and the Logos
was with God,
and God was
the Logos.

this – houtos, οὗτος, αὕτη, τοῦτο, this, he, she, it,
was in the beginning with God

http://biblos.com/john/1-2.htm

All things
through
this – (houtos)
came into being,
and without
this
came into being
not even one [thing] which has come into being.

In
this –(houtos)
life was,
and the life was the light of men.

And
the light
in the darkness shines,
and the darkness it not overcome.

http://biblos.com/john/1-3.htm
http://biblos.com/john/1-4.htm
http://biblos.com/john/1-5.htm

'God is light and in him is no darkness at all.'

———

John 1:10,

In the world
eimi: – εἰμί, I am, exist

and the world
through
same – autou, αὐτός, he, she, it, they, them, same
came into being,
and the world
same – (autos)
not knew.

http://biblos.com/john/1-10.htm

December 6, 2012 at 10:47 am#323530

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2012,12:56)

I don't see what your point is.

December 6, 2012 at 11:01 am#323531

Participant

T, getting to your post later.

December 6, 2012 at 4:30 pm#323547

Participant

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 06 2012,18:44)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 04 2012,14:01)

Now would you address the 5 points I listed, one at a time, by number?

Thanks,

mike

Quote

1. Jesus IS called a god, like you said.

Jesus the man is now called a God in scripture, yes.

Quote

2. Jesus IS called “the Word” in Rev 19:13.

Quote

Rev 19:11-16

If no-one else knows his name, does that mean God does not know his name? No! Because 'The Word' is of God and is God. (John 1:1).

So we have Jesus the man (who was slain as the lamb of God), and then we have the word (who is the spirit of God and also is God).

So we see in Rev 19 the words 'the faithful and true witness' which is also seen in Rev 3:14

“And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.“

The beginning of God's creation….

This is not saying that The Word was ever created, it is saying that the world was created through him.

The first thing that happened was God's Spirit moved over the waters; and then God spoke.

————————

'He smites the nations with a sharp sword from his mouth (His Words)'

Revelations 2:16,

'Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

He will war against them with the word of his mouth, he who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.

——————

'He will rule them with a rod of iron'

Rev 2:27:

The 'conquerers' are also given power to rule over the nations with a rod of iron, as Jesus also conquered and was given the power to rule.

—————–

'He is the King of Kings and the Lord of lords.'

Rev 17:14,

'They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.'

1Tim 6:14-16,

'I charge you to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ; and this will be made manifest at the proper time……………. by the blessed and
only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.'

This is the Lord God Almighty; the Father.

So, what do we do now?

Jesus the lamb is called the Lord of lords and the King of kings, and God Almighty is also called the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

This is answered with the following verse:

Quote

3. All things were said to have been created through “the Word” (John 1:3)…………………………

All things were created through the Word, yes, as the OT tells us.

And that Word was made flesh.

Only one God created the heavens and the earth and that one God through his spirit came down and manifested himself in Jesus Christ. The Father was in him, in spirit, doing the works.

same question continued:

Quote

…………….and they are also said to have been created through Jesus (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Hebrews 1:2)

Please read the OP. Too many people twist Paul's words, including the translations.

2nd Peter 3:15-17

I will skip instead to Hebrews, (Possibly not written by Paul)

Here is the original Greek wording quoted from Biblos.com

*aionos
aión: a space of time, an age
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

Daniel chapter 7.

————-

continuing on with Hebrews:

Jesus was not an Angel but a Man, and the Word in him was definitely not an Angel or a created being, but the eternal spirit.

Quote

4. This particular Word from John 1:1 became flesh, and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

Yes.

Quote

5. Jesus is called “the Word of Life” in 1 John 1.

'our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.'

'God is light and in him is no darkness at all.'

' if we walk in the light, as he (God the Father) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.'

The light is God Almighty. The light is the Father of Jesus.

Go back to John 1. Who there is the light?

1st Tim 3:16

Go back to John 1…
'The Life' mentioned is also 'The Light' (same thing)

'In him (God the Father) was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.'

'The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made through him (God's eternal Spirit and word), yet the world knew him not.'

See 1st John 5-7 again – please.

'and the world was made through him, God is that light.

He (God's eternal spirit) was in the world, and the world was made through him.

But the world knew him not.

2besee……….You have presented it exactly right , God who is spirit was truly “in” and speaking to us “through” Jesus God came to be in the Flesh man Jesus by his spirit and thereby Jesus was speaking not “his “words but the “words' of him who sent him.

Jesus said over and over the Father was in him and the words he spoke were not his words. God and his Words are one and the same, just as we and our words are one and the same. And they (the words) are from Spirit, because they proceed from the Spirit that is “IN” a person.

God the Fathers Spirit was truly “in” Jesus and therefore God was truly Present in Him. It was not Jesus who said destory the temple and in three days I (GOD) shall raise it up , that was God himself Speaking through Jesus Frist Person by way of his spirit.

When Thomas said My Lord “and” My God He did not mean Jesus was his God but that his God was Present in Jesus his Lord. IMO

2besee, you doing a good job of explaining scriptures brother, we need more of that here, keep up the good work. My greatest hope here is that Mike and T8 and Pierre and other will come to see and understand these things to brother.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

December 6, 2012 at 9:09 pm#323553

Participant

Hi Gene, I think that we are seeing things the same. I prayed for truth. Now I know what I can say to anyone who asks, for example people who do not know Christianity at all. God bless.

December 6, 2012 at 10:42 pm#323558

http://biblos.com/john/1-14.htm
http://biblos.com/john/1-15.htm

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 04 2012,16:15)

THIS WAY OF THINKING DOES NOT BRING TO THE TRUTH OF GOD BUT ONLY TO YOUR OWN,; prayers are only good if they are done with a pure heart ,and so believing and understand truth in all scriptures so you will not be duped, remove all what his in your mind and heart of preconceive ideas ;and read and understand what his to be understood in the written words of God without add or subtract anything then the truth will tell were it is that some thing is not right ,then you will have to make a choice follow what now you know to be true or follow men 's believe ,

This is exactly what I did. For years I have followed man. For once I trusted in God, alone. During the time that I thought and studied, I went to no mans opinion and I emptied my mind of all preconceived teachings of man. I prayed and I asked over the past three days, with respect to God and also a fear of misleading anyone. I trust God.

Quote

look now in your reasoning on the scriptures John 1;1 you have preconceive idea that that verse his true ;now because you cannot understand it or explain it ;you start to make opinions on what it should or should not be ;so this way of study scriptures his wrong ,why not letting the scriptures answer your questions ;it was written under the influence of the holy spirit ,

T, the only preconceived idea which I had was that it said that the word was a god. That was actually what I was taught. The only recent preconceived idea which I brought into my studies was what the Spirit showed me through my elderly dad. And that was the 'eternal spirit' and I found scripture to support this.

'How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.' Hebrews 9:14

And this truth which was shown to me I knew to be true. THIS was what I built on, revealed through the Spirit.

And as i said I fear God, and I trust him in what I have written.

Quote

that person John says(1) IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD ;could you tell me what that mean being in the beginning
there also one more question to ask ;WHAT BEGINNING DOES JOHN TALKS ABOUT

What 'beginning' is John and Genesis talking about?
The beginning of the creation of the World.

Quote

(2)HAND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD ;NOW WHAT WOULD YOU SAY THIS MEAN BEING WITH SOMEONE

The Logos was a part of God just as your Word is a part of you.

God didn't come into the world in totality, how could he? He is in UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT, he did however come here through His Spirit.

That Spirit is no-one else's Spirit, it is God's Spirit.

God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Is that verse telling you, that the spirit of a man is a separate being to the Man? No!

Quote

Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

And
the Logos – λόγος, ου, ὁ, a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
flesh became
and dwelt among us,
and we discerned
the glory
of
him – (autos)
a glory
as of
an only begotten
with
a father,
full of grace and truth.

Quote

Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

LOOK HERE A CLUE FROM J THE BPT ;HE SAID THAT JESUS SURPASSED HIM BECAUSE HE WAS BEFORE HIM AND WE ALL KNOW THAT JOHN THE BPT WAS CONCEIVED BEFORE CHRIST ; THIS ALSO MAKE ME THINK WEN CHRIST SAYS THAT ” HE WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM”

John witnesses
concerning
him (autos)
and cried out, saying,
This
was
'I am' – eimi, εἰμί, I exist, I am
of whom I was speaking,
He who
after me comes,
precedence
of me has,
for before me,
'I am' – eimi, εἰμί, I exist, I am[/b][/size]

'Said to them Jesus,
Truly truly
I say to you,
Before Abraham was,
I, I am – here and here

http://biblos.com/john/8-58.htm

and you say that the Word (which was God), was a 'little god'? and a second God.

Quote

WE ALL KNOW THAT GOD CREATED ALL THINGS BUT DO WE UNDERSTAND HOW DID HE DO IT AND WITH WHOM

Yes He did it alone. Praise Him.

Quote

Quote
What it says in John 1:1 is true

NO THIS IS ONLY WHAT YOU WANTED TO BELIEVE FOR PERSONAL REASONS NOT FOR THE TRUTH OF GOD

'In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was a God'.
YES THIS HIS THE BETTER TRANSLATION IN VIEW OF WHAT THE SCRIPTURES TELLS US NOT OPINIONS THE SCRIPTURES ,

Where did you learn this: That the Logos of God was a god?

God is one. Not two. This is what Scriptures say, this is what Jesus said, and even the devils know this and shudder.

So what lies would be the most prevalent, but tha
t there was more than one God.

By claiming that the Logos was a god, you are making God two gods.

Quote

Jesus said that all sins will be forgiven, and that if you speak a word against the son of man it can be forgiven, but, if you speak a word against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven neither in this life or in the one to come.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THOSE WORDS AND WHAT IT MEANS ?

Yes I do.

All sins will be forgiven, and if you speak a word against the son of man (Jesus) it will be forgiven, but, if you speak a word against the Holy Spirit….. it will not be forgiven neither in this life or in the one to come…..

Do you see that the Father is not mentioned in that verse. do you wonder why?

I hope that that answered your questions adequately, T.

December 6, 2012 at 10:47 pm#323559

Participant

Many false prophets have gone out into the world.
By their fruits you will know them.

December 6, 2012 at 11:16 pm#323560

Blocked

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 06 2012,03:47)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2012,12:56)

I don't see what your point is.

Hi 2B,

You believe that Jesus is a god, right? Do you believe that Jesus is now Jehovah the Father? Or a DIFFERENT god?

As for the big post you wrote to me, I don't have time to address all of it. I agree with much of it anyway. But I will take the time to point out a couple of errors. I'll do that in my next few posts to you.

December 6, 2012 at 11:57 pm#323562

Participant

Mike………..Your not gettin it, 2besee is not saying that Jesus is a God at all, he is saying that God by way of Spirit was in him That in no way make Jesus the man a God now or ever will either. There is only “one” God Jesus quoted this scripture, ” Hear O Isreal the LORD our GOD is one LORD , now please notice he did not say one God, why?, it is because the LORD did not have to because, He is the “only God there is” But he did have to say One LORD why? because there are other Lord (persons ) and if there were other Gods he would have said . one LORD “AND” ONE GOD, but he did not have to say that becaise there is no other God's, but him alone he is the ONLY GOD there IS>

Peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………gene

December 7, 2012 at 12:02 am#323563

Blocked

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 06 2012,01:44)

…….and as scripture says, that word and spirit is a part of God and IS God.

No scripture ever makes such an asinine claim as that, 2B. Please read my last post to Ed J (7th post on the previous page). Things that are OF a person are not also that person. For example, my spirit is with me, but you cannot logically say EITHER of the following things:

1. Mike's Mike is with him.

2. Mike Mike is with him.

See? Since MY spirit is not “Mike”, you can't call MY spirit “Mike”. Get it? The spirit OF Mike is not also “Mike”.

Likewise, neither the Spirit nor the Word OF Jehovah is also Jehovah Himself. They are instead POSSESSIONS OF Him. (After all, that is what the word “OF” indicates, right?)

But just to make sure, do a quick and simple test in the scriptures, 2B. Replace the word “Spirit” with the word “Jehovah” any time the “Holy Spirit OF God” is mentioned – and see how that works out for you. Then do the same thing any time the “word OF God” is mentioned.

Try Matthew 3:16 for starters. Did the “God of God” descend upon Jesus at his baptism? Did the “God God” descend upon him?

Then check Luke 3:2 out. Did the “God of God” come to John in the desert? Did the “God God” come to him?

Do this test with any scripture you choose, 2B. Let me know what you find out.

December 7, 2012 at 12:07 am#323564