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Quote (2besee @ Mar. 31 2013,03:37) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 31 2013,06:57) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2013,01:01) Gene, Is it believer or the Son that is in him that cries Abba, Father?
What is Mike's answer?
To all,Corrected.
Kerwin, I believe it is the Spirit of the Son (Holy Spirit) and our own Spirit that cries “Abba Father”.'And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
'Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.' Romans 8:26
And there is only one spirit sent (Ephesians 4 and 1Cor 6:17,12:13, etc)
2besee,A good answer.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,07:15) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 29 2013,16:09) 1Cor 2:11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Matthew 11:27
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
1 John 2:14
I write to you, dear children, because you know the Father.John 8:19
Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”John 14:9
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.2B, it seems to me that the ones to whom Jesus revealed the Father also know the Father. Are all of the apostles and disciples also the “Holy Spirit Son of God”, because they too know the Father?
Not to mention that this “proof” you offer doesn't even align with the understanding you claim to have. For example, you claim that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are TWO DIFFERENT sons of God. And for your current “proof” to work, it must be the “Holy Spirit Son of God” who said the words of Matthew 11:27. Yet we know from scripture that it was Jesus who said those words.
Do you see how your point fails on many fronts? First, Jesus said that OTHERS (the ones to whom he makes the Father known) also “know the Father”. And surely they cannot ALL be “the Holy Spirit Son of God”, right?
Secondly, it was JESUS who said those words – not “the Holy Spirit Son of God”, right?
Mike, Jesus and the Holy Spirit spoke as if one. This is the point that you are missing.If someone is given the Spirit without measure, as Jesus was, then they are as if one.
Elijah CAME in the body of John the Baptist. They did not recognize him. He was not called Elijah but was called John, but he spoke as Elijah.
WE can have moments when we know the Father almost completely and then we can have times when we feel we do not. So we talk with absolute certainty of our heavenly Father and then we can have times when we are not so sure. this is due to the coming and going of the Spirit I believe. however, Jesus had the Spirit from the River Jordan without Measure. He COULD talk with certainty of the Father He knew all of the time without wavering. The Spirit never left him.
The verses that I gave you above need to be thought of more deeper than just reading over them quickly.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 31 2013,10:57) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 31 2013,03:37) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 31 2013,06:57) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2013,01:01) Gene, Is it believer or the Son that is in him that cries Abba, Father?
What is Mike's answer?
To all,Corrected.
Kerwin, I believe it is the Spirit of the Son (Holy Spirit) and our own Spirit that cries “Abba Father”.'And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
'Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.' Romans 8:26
And there is only one spirit sent (Ephesians 4 and 1Cor 6:17,12:13, etc)
2besee,A good answer.
Thanks Kerwin.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,07:16) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 29 2013,16:12) John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Doesn't say one single thing about the Holy Spirit being the Son of God.
Again you need to really think about it. One verse goes in with another, and it takes deep thought when each of the verses are put together.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,07:23) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 29 2013,16:23) John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
John 14:18
“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
These verses say that:1. The Holy Spirit will be sent.
2. Jesus will also be with them – as he was with Paul.
Acts 26
14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied.
Many times in scripture, JESUS talked to Paul. And many times in scripture, Paul was led by the Holy Spirit of God. But nothing about this would imply that these two things were interchangeable – or that they were the same thing.
Instead it proves that the Holy Spirit was sent as promised. AND Jesus was also with them, helping them, as he promised.
Jesus said “When you do it to one of the least of these, you do it to me”.Do you understand what that means?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,07:24) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 29 2013,16:25) Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Doesn't say one single thing about the Holy Spirit being the Son of God.
Mike, it shows that there are two: The Son of Man AND the Holy Spirit, and that the two are different (You can say a word against one and be forgiven but you cannot say a word against the other and be forgiven).Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,07:26) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 29 2013,21:09) John 14:23.
(Greek)Answered Jesus and said to him, if anyone love me, the word of me he will keep, and the Father of me will love him, and to him I come, and an abode with him will make.
http://biblos.com/john/14-23.htm
http://biblesuite.com/greek/2064.htmJohn 14:16
'And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever'.
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 14:18
I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Asked and answered. Doesn't say one single thing about the Holy Spirit being the Son of God.
Mike, You don't want to see it, so you won't see it.
Told you!Perhaps one day.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,07:18) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 29 2013,16:16) Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Doesn't say one single thing about the Holy Spirit being the Son of God.
It shows THREE.1) The Blood of Christ
2) The Eternal Spirit
3) The Living GodOne on Earth
One in Between
One in Heaven.Quote (2besee @ Mar. 30 2013,15:52) Considered as canon earliest church. The Shepherd.
Fifth Similitude:'The field is this world; and the Lord of the field is He who created, and perfected, and strengthened all things; and the son is the Holy Spirit.
The holy, pre-existent Spirit, that created every creature, God made to dwell in flesh, which He chose. This flesh, accordingly, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, was nobly subject to that Spirit, walking religiously and chastely, in no respect defiling the Spirit; and accordingly, after living excellently and purely, and after labouring and co-operating with the Spirit, and having in everything acted vigorously and courageously along with the Holy Spirit, He assumed it as a partner with it.
For this conduct of the flesh pleased Him, because it was not defiled on the earth while having the Holy Spirit.
He took, therefore, as fellow-councillors His Son and the glorious angels, in order that this flesh, which had been subject to the body without a fault, might have some place of tabernacle, and that it might not appear that the reward of its servitude had been lost, for the flesh that has been found without spot or defilement, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, will receive a reward.'
Mike, I notice that you never comment on this.
I bet that if you found some clear evidence which says EXACTLY what you were shown, something that was considered as CANON, then you be the first to show everyone.Romans 1:1-32
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations…
What do the Jews think the Spirit of God is?
Quote:
“The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.”
From the time of creation constant reference is made in Holy Writ to Messiah and the Messianic hope of Israel.
'The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters'; the Spirit of God means Messiah.
(Midrash Genesis Rabbah 2; Leviticus Rabbah 14)
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 31 2013,03:28) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,06:38) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2013,12:06) Galatians 4:6
King James Version (KJV)6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
And how does this one say the Spirit of God is the Son of God? Think it out: If the Spirit that God sent forth was the spirit of the “Holy Spirit/Son of God”, then the verse would be saying that the Holy Spirit of God has a spirit of its own – one that was sent forth by God.Do you believe that the Holy Spirit of God has its own spirit that can be sent forth from God?
Neither of these scriptures teaches that God's Holy Spirit is His Son, Kerwin.
This is simple to understand Mike. The Father sent the Spirit of the Son. The Father sent the Holy Spirit. Son=Holy Spirit. You make things far too complicated.
2bee
the question is not asked to the early fathers ,but to you and to be shown in scriptures ,
this is were your problem lays ,just as if the early fathers would be here today how would they prove that what they believe IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURES
what a person thinks is irrelevant to the scriptures,but it is better for all of us to follow the word of God,
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 30 2013,15:28) This is simple to understand Mike. The Father sent the Spirit of the Son. The Father sent the Holy Spirit. Son=Holy Spirit. You make things far too complicated.
YOU are the one complicating things, 2B, because you keep flip-flopping on what exactly you are claiming.For example, you say the Father sent the “Spirit of the Son”, which is the “Holy Spirit”. Then you say “Son=Holy Spirit”. But if what you say is true, then the Father REALLY sent the spirit OF the Holy Spirit, right? Because if the Holy Spirit IS the Son, and the Father sent the SPIRIT OF the Son, then it means the Father sent the SPIRIT OF the Holy Spirit.
Does that really make sense to you, 2B? Where can I read in scripture that the Holy Spirit of God has a spirit of its own?
More to come……………..
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 30 2013,15:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,07:15)
2B, it seems to me that the ones to whom Jesus revealed the Father also know the Father. Are all of the apostles and disciples also the “Holy Spirit Son of God”, because they too know the Father?
Mike, Jesus and the Holy Spirit spoke as if one. This is the point that you are missing.
Another “flip-flop”, from what I can see.First, you say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are TWO DIFFERENT sons of God, but then you say these TWO spoke as if they were one.
You say it is Jesus, and not the “Holy Spirit Son of God” who now sits at the right hand of God. So what happened? God gave Jesus the “Holy Spirit Son” without measure, so they spoke as one, but then He took the first Son away from the flesh son, so now there are TWO? I just don't get it, 2B. And when Jesus said he would send a DIFFERENT helper, why would “the Holy Spirit Son of God”, who was “as if one” with Jesus, refer to sending HIMSELF as a sending a DIFFERENT helper?
There are SO many things wrong with your doctrine, 2B.
Listen to scripture, my friend:
God sent His Son into the world. Scripture testifies that this Son who was sent into the world is JESUS CHRIST, not “the Holy Spirit Son of God”.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 30 2013,16:09) Mike, it shows that there are two: The Son of Man AND the Holy Spirit, and that the two are different (You can say a word against one and be forgiven but you cannot say a word against the other and be forgiven).
Yes 2B. I AGREE that Jesus and the Holy Spirit of God are TWO different things. But how does that scripture say that the Holy Spirit is the Son of God?Learn from the scriptures, 2B:
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
Do you notice that NO ONE was saying Jesus was “the Holy Spirit Son of God”? Yet Peter got it right when he said Jesus was the “Son of God”, right?
And all throughout the OT, there were hints that God was going to send what? A MESSIAH, right? Jesus is the Messiah God SENT into the world, 2B. And it just so happened that the Messiah God sent into the world was also God's firstborn Son.
2B, Gene, and Kerwin, do you guys think the Holy Spirit is the “Messiah” that God was to send into the world? YES or NO?
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 30 2013,16:26) Mike, I notice that you never comment on this.
Show me from scripture, 2B. When I see your claim supported in today's canon, THEN I might be interested in reading this other book.But since you cannot produce one single shred of scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit of God was ever considered to be the Son of God, why would I be interested in a book that teaches what is NOT taught in the scriptures?
2B, I am not interested in Shepherd, commentators, early Jewish writings, or anything else UNTIL you can first show it to me in what we today call “scripture”. If you can do that, THEN I will consider the other writings, okay?
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 30 2013,16:52) ……and was declared to be the Son of God in power…….
So if Jesus is now “the Son of God in power”, where does that leave this OTHER “Son of God, the Holy Spirit”?Has God's other Son lost his power? Is Jesus now higher than even the “Holy Spirit Son of God”?
Or will you now flip-flop back again, and claim they merged together as one in heaven?
2B, you have not shown one scripture that even HINTS at God's Holy Spirit being His Son.
Why not spend a minute or two working on your OTHER problem with John 1:1?
Please explain to us how God Almighty Himself could have been WITH God Almighty Himself in the beginning.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2013,18:39) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 30 2013,16:09) Mike, it shows that there are two: The Son of Man AND the Holy Spirit, and that the two are different (You can say a word against one and be forgiven but you cannot say a word against the other and be forgiven).
Yes 2B. I AGREE that Jesus and the Holy Spirit of God are TWO different things. But how does that scripture say that the Holy Spirit is the Son of God?Learn from the scriptures, 2B:
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
Do you notice that NO ONE was saying Jesus was “the Holy Spirit Son of God”? Yet Peter got it right when he said Jesus was the “Son of God”, right?
And all throughout the OT, there were hints that God was going to send what? A MESSIAH, right? Jesus is the Messiah God SENT into the world, 2B. And it just so happened that the Messiah God sent into the world was also God's firstborn Son.
2B, Gene, and Kerwin, do you guys think the Holy Spirit is the “Messiah” that God was to send into the world? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,Jn.4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
Spirit OF Spirit. Spirit of God.
Peace brother.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,15:18) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 30 2013,15:28) This is simple to understand Mike. The Father sent the Spirit of the Son. The Father sent the Holy Spirit. Son=Holy Spirit. You make things far too complicated.
YOU are the one complicating things, 2B, because you keep flip-flopping on what exactly you are claiming.For example, you say the Father sent the “Spirit of the Son”, which is the “Holy Spirit”. Then you say “Son=Holy Spirit”. But if what you say is true, then the Father REALLY sent the spirit OF the Holy Spirit, right? Because if the Holy Spirit IS the Son, and the Father sent the SPIRIT OF the Son, then it means the Father sent the SPIRIT OF the Holy Spirit.
Does that really make sense to you, 2B? Where can I read in scripture that the Holy Spirit of God has a spirit of its own?
More to come……………..
Mike, I am not 'flip-flopping'. You are misunderstanding.And WHAT ARE you trying to say?
God sent the Spirit of the Son.
What is so difficult to understand about that – it is not difficult if you understand the Spirit to BE the Son.
Only one Spirit was sent, not two. (1Cor 12: 4-12, etc)
Actually, this PROVES exactly what i am saying.
Only one Spirit was sent: the Holy Spirit. Now, How could that only Spirit sent be called the Holy Spirit and also be called the Son, unless it is TRUE.
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