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Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2013,13:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,09:18) Kerwin, I am asking Kathi for any SCRIPTURES (besides Prov 8) that speak of wisdom being created, or being born.
Do you know of any?
Mike,Proverbs 8:25 bis the only place I know of and the LXX uses the word “gennaō”. “gennaō” is used in the figurative sense in relation to Jehovah begetting the Israeli nation, Deuteronomy 32:18; Isaiah 1:2.
My point was to show that the Greeks and Jews of that time used equivilent figurative language.
Here is my source.
Mt 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish.
Mt 13:48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
Mt 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
Mt 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:51 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.
“Yes,” they replied.
Mt 13:52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”kerwin ,did you understand it
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 18 2013,20:42) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2013,13:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,09:18) Kerwin, I am asking Kathi for any SCRIPTURES (besides Prov 8) that speak of wisdom being created, or being born.
Do you know of any?
Mike,Proverbs 8:25 bis the only place I know of and the LXX uses the word “gennaō”. “gennaō” is used in the figurative sense in relation to Jehovah begetting the Israeli nation, Deuteronomy 32:18; Isaiah 1:2.
My point was to show that the Greeks and Jews of that time used equivilent figurative language.
Here is my source.
Mt 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish.
Mt 13:48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
Mt 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
Mt 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:51 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.
“Yes,” they replied.
Mt 13:52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”kerwin ,did you understand it
T,“Once again, the word is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the word who has been instructed about the word is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2013,01:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,09:18) Kerwin, I am asking Kathi for any SCRIPTURES (besides Prov 8) that speak of wisdom being created, or being born.
Do you know of any?
Mike,Proverbs 8:25 is the only place I know of…………..
8:22, 24, and 25. Verse 23 has “established”, which could be viewed along the same lines.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2013,22:27) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 18 2013,20:42) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2013,13:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,09:18) Kerwin, I am asking Kathi for any SCRIPTURES (besides Prov 8) that speak of wisdom being created, or being born.
Do you know of any?
Mike,Proverbs 8:25 bis the only place I know of and the LXX uses the word “gennaō”. “gennaō” is used in the figurative sense in relation to Jehovah begetting the Israeli nation, Deuteronomy 32:18; Isaiah 1:2.
My point was to show that the Greeks and Jews of that time used equivilent figurative language.
Here is my source.
Mt 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish.
Mt 13:48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
Mt 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
Mt 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:51 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.
“Yes,” they replied.
Mt 13:52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”kerwin ,did you understand it
T,“Once again, the word is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the word who has been instructed about the word is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”
NO you don'tThe italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1. The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus.
1. And the Word was a god: (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)
2. He was with God in the beginning: (John 17:5)
3. All things were made through him: (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)
4. In him was life, and that life was the light of men: (John 5:26, John 8:12)
5. The light shines in the darkness: (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)
6. John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light: (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)
7. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world: (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)
8. Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him: (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)
9. He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)
10. but his own did not receive him: (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)
11. to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God: (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)
12. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us: (1 John 1:1-2, 4:2; Phil 2:6-7; Rom 8:3; Gal 4:4-5)
13. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten: (John 1:18, 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9)
14. who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.: (John 1:16, 14:6; Luke 2:40; Romans 1:5)
Moving on……………..
15
John testified concerning him.Who did John testify about?
Mark 1
7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
John 1
32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”
John 3
26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”John 5
32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.33 You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth.
John 10
41 “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2013,02:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 12 2013,21:59) Common experience tells us that wisdom comes forth from within a person and in that sense, wisdom is born. So, whenever you read in scripture that wisdom has come forth in some way, metaphorically it was born.
I disagree. Wisdom can be displayed by many people, but it isn't “brought forth from within them” in the sense of being born.So it seems that only in Prov 8 do we hear about wisdom “being born”, right? At least that's the only one I know about off hand.
Again, I was speaking of 'born' as a metaphor, not as literal.I can't think of any but I have not read all the verses that have the various words that are sometimes translated as born. I will keep my eye out though.
I did come across a verse with Strong's #1096 in it that can be translated as 'born':
Matt 13
31He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32and this is smaller than all [other] seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES.”Strong's 1096
ginomai: to come into being, to happen, to become
Original Word: γίνομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ginomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ghin'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I come into being, am born
Definition: I come into being, am born, become, come about, happen.The tree in the parable which 'came into being/became' was not 'created' just then when it 'became' a tree. The tree had already existed in the form of it's earliest stage as a seed prior to it's 'coming into being.'
The 'seed' possessed the nature of the tree and then begat the tree from it's roots.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,20:56) The italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1. The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus. 1. And the Word was a god: (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)
2. He was with God in the beginning: (John 17:5)
3. All things were made through him: (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)
4. In him was life, and that life was the light of men: (John 5:26, John 8:12)
5. The light shines in the darkness: (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)
6. John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light: (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)
7. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world: (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)
8. Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him: (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)
9. He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)
10. but his own did not receive him: (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)
11. to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God: (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)
12. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us: (1 John 1:1-2, 4:2; Phil 2:6-7; Rom 8:3; Gal 4:4-5)
13. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten: (John 1:18, 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9)
14. who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.: (John 1:16, 14:6; Luke 2:40; Romans 1:5)
Moving on……………..
15
John testified concerning him.Who did John testify about?
Mark 1
7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
John 1
32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”
John 3
26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”John 5
32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.33 You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth.
John 10
41 “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.”
Mike,you said:
Quote The italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1. The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus. I can show you scriptures that speak of YHVH and also scriptures where the exact things are said of Jesus.
You are just as blinded to connecting the dots from YHVH to Jesus, as those who don't see the Word as Jesus, imo.
For example:
YHVH is the First and the Last
Jesus is the First and the LastYHVH is the only Savior
Jesus is the SaviorYHVH is Lord of lords
Jesus is Lord of lordsYHVH is the Lion of Judah
Jesus is the Lion of Judahetc,…
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2013,06:38) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2013,22:27) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 18 2013,20:42) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2013,13:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,09:18) Kerwin, I am asking Kathi for any SCRIPTURES (besides Prov 8) that speak of wisdom being created, or being born.
Do you know of any?
Mike,Proverbs 8:25 bis the only place I know of and the LXX uses the word “gennaō”. “gennaō” is used in the figurative sense in relation to Jehovah begetting the Israeli nation, Deuteronomy 32:18; Isaiah 1:2.
My point was to show that the Greeks and Jews of that time used equivilent figurative language.
Here is my source.
Mt 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish.
Mt 13:48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
Mt 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
Mt 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:51 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.
“Yes,” they replied.
Mt 13:52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”kerwin ,did you understand it
T,“Once again, the word is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the word who has been instructed about the word is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”
NO you don't
T,I have not heard your hypothesis nor the flaws you find in mine.
This question I ask:
Don't you believe that the Law is the Word and God reigns by his Word?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2013,06:33) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2013,01:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,09:18) Kerwin, I am asking Kathi for any SCRIPTURES (besides Prov 8) that speak of wisdom being created, or being born.
Do you know of any?
Mike,Proverbs 8:25 is the only place I know of…………..
8:22, 24, and 25. Verse 23 has “established”, which could be viewed along the same lines.
Mike,Thank you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 18 2013,22:46) …but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree……]/i] Strong's 1096
ginomai: to come into being, to happen, to become
Kathi, the Greek word “ginomai” doesn't always refer to “coming into being”. Sometimes it simply refers to “becoming” – as the definition you posted clearly explains.Obviously, in the case of the scripture you quoted, Jesus did not use the word with the sense of “coming into being”, right?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 18 2013,22:52) I can show you scriptures that speak of YHVH and also scriptures where the exact things are said of Jesus.
And I can show you where those things can be, and are, said of others besides Jesus and his God, Jehovah. But this is not the thread for it.The point of my exercise is that ALL of the things said about the Word in John 1 are also said about Jesus in other scriptures. That isn't the case with “the Most High God” and “the Son of the Most High God”, is it?
After one more addition to my list, I will begin the process again to see if all of those same things can be said about God Himself, or about “the Holy Spirit Son of God”. If you would like to join in with scriptures or insights that either support or rebut my claims, feel free. But I would rather not have this turn into yet another “Jesus is God Almighty” discussion. There are already enough threads for that purpose, right?
Moved from another thread.
Quote Maybe there is something that we are missing here. “The Spirit of His Son”…. MAYBE…… Man has His own spirit, correct. So, maybe… Jesus' Spirit was the Holy Spirit!? So the flesh = The Man.
The Spirit of Jesus = The Holy Spirit.Hmmmmmm.
Okay wrong thread for this.
What do you think?
Acts 16:6-7
And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.40 [e]hagiouἁγίουHoly
4151 [e]pneumatosπνεύματοςSpirit4151 [e]pneumaπνεῦμαSpirit
2424 [e]IēsouἸησοῦof Jesushttp://biblos.com/acts/16-6.htm
http://biblos.com/acts/16-7.htmSome versions apparently changed the text to read instead: “The Spirit” without the name Jesus.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible says:
Instead of το πνευμα, the Spirit merely, το πνευμα Ιησου, the Spirit of Jesus, is the reading of several others, with both the Syriac, the Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Vulgate, Itala, and several of the fathers. The reading is undoubtedly genuine, and should be immediately restored to the text.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:
The Alexandrian copy, and Beza's most ancient copy, and some others, and the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions read, “the Spirit of Jesus”
Scofield Reference Notes:
R.V. adds “of Jesus”, as in the best authorities.
Something funny is going on here. Hermas & Wisdom also state that the Holy Spirit is the creator and the Son. Yet they were hidden, just as this text was removed from the modern versions such as the King James when it was there in the most ancient copies.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seethe him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
John 14:2618 I will not leave you Comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:18Please, someone with some wisdom help me to solve this.
I can't piece it together.2beesee,
God is alive and well and willing to teach you. Have faith in him. Be patient for he is teaching you.
Start a new thread to discuss these things with your fellow students but let God teach you through Jesus.
Jesus dwells in believers by the Spirit, just as believers dwell in him by the same Spirit.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 25 2013,21:04) But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
John 14:2618 I will not leave you Comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:18Please, someone with some wisdom help me to solve this.
I can't piece it together.
Hi 2Besee,The answer is found in John 14:23:
“If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him,
and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.”“Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
shall he (in spirit form) appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” (Heb 9:28)Quote Isaiah 64:4-5 “For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear,
neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways:”God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2013,14:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 18 2013,22:46) …but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree……]/i] Strong's 1096
ginomai: to come into being, to happen, to become
Kathi, the Greek word “ginomai” doesn't always refer to “coming into being”. Sometimes it simply refers to “becoming” – as the definition you posted clearly explains.Obviously, in the case of the scripture you quoted, Jesus did not use the word with the sense of “coming into being”, right?
Mike………Wrong again the Word “ginomai” does mean come into being or existence, meaing from a non existing state to an existing stateYou refuse to accept that because of your preexisting doctrine. Using words like “sometimes” or it “could be” only proves this, but when it come to words Like “before Abraham I am “, you will not allow that it “could “mean something other then Jesus being alive as a being before Abraham.
peace aqnd love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 25 2013,20:43) John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seethe him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
2besee……>I believe what Jesus meant by saying this , is that the Spirit of Truth that was “IN” him and as a result was with them, But when Jesus left He had the Father send “IT” unto the disciples to be “IN” them also , Just as it was sin Jesus.I also believe a Spirit is not a He or a She, but is better portrayed as an “IT”, because every Spirit imparts “IT'S” particular influence to us. Rather it is a clean or unclean spirit or the Holy (set aside Spirit) of God.
God who is a Spirit was indeed in Jesus and can dwell in us also, Like Paul said “know you not that your “BODY” is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and again that God may be all and in you all. Jesus was speaking the words of God by God presence “IN” him and it was that Spirit of truth that said I will not leave you comfort-less,
The spirit of Truth is indeed a COMFORTER , it is this Spirit that give us the Cognoscenti of a stable and sound Mind , and also the Joy that Jesus Had in him also. IMO
peace and Love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 25 2013,02:04) But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
John 14:2618 I will not leave you Comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:18Please, someone with some wisdom help me to solve this.
I can't piece it together.
Hi 2b,Past? Present? Future?
Jesus living? Jesus died? Jesus now? Jesus future?
Jesus future.
Jer.3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
Peace brother…
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2013,02:26) 2beesee, God is alive and well and willing to teach you. Have faith in him. Be patient for he is teaching you.
Start a new thread to discuss these things with your fellow students but let God teach you through Jesus.
Jesus dwells in believers by the Spirit, just as believers dwell in him by the same Spirit.
Thank-you Kerwin.
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