In the Beginning

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 10 2013,10:04)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,19:05) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) i believe the son is and alway was in  God Father because the same preexisting Spirit But are you talking about JESUS?  Or are you talking about this OTHER son of God, the Holy Spirit? Mike Tells us if the Word “Begotten” means to bring into Existence” how could Jesus be Begotten on “this Day” when he already existed?

Hi Gene,

Psalm 2:7 speaks of a long time ago – before the world and all other things were created through Jesus.

Remember that the Hebrew word “yowm” can refer to a literal, 24 hour day……… or it can refer to any time period at all.

In other words, Psalm 2:7 could easily be translated as, “You are my son; today at this time I have become your father.”

Now, would you answer the question in the quote box above?  It was from my last post, and I didn't see an answer in your response.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 10 2013,11:31)

Hi Mike, God's Holy Spirit (ALL BY ITSELF) actually conceived the Son of God in Mary. DO YOU BELIEVE THIS OR NOT?

“OR NOT”, Ed.

No, I don't believe that.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2013,13:24)

If your arm threw the ball, then your arm is the 'source' of the strength. Your mind would not be the source as the strength, your mind would be the authority but your arm provides the strength to get the ball from one place to another

Oh. So God is “the boss”, but Jesus is the one with all the power and strength? Whatevs.

The point of my analogy was that the ball itself could vaguely be considerered as “the source” of that bump on your head. But in reality, we know that I was the actual source, and the ball was just a tool I used.

In fact, I could say the ball was my “powerful outstretched arm”, because it was the means to the end that I desired.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2013,13:28)

Oh brother! If wisdom is given at any time, it is brought forth from within.

You didn't say “given”. You said “born”. Show me a scripture that says wisdom was born.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,16:48)

Hi Ed, Can God not cause a virgin to conceive through the power of the Holy Spirit……. ?

Absolutely God can……. and DID!

But even though I don't agree with Ed that the Holy Spirit OF God IS the very God it is OF, his point still stands.

You are saying that God caused Jesus to be conceived in Mary THROUGH His own Son – the Holy Spirit.

Wouldn't that make Jesus a GRANDSON of God, and not a SON of God?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,23:06)

Hi Mike and all, I would like to move on now. What I would like to look at is:  What is Jesus Now?  i.e. AFTER the resurrection. So I will start up a new thread, perhaps?

Yes 2B,

Please start a thread called, The Holy Spirit is the Son of God.

I was going to ask this today:  Are Jesus and the Holy Spirit STILL separate sons of God, now that Jesus is in heaven?  Or have they somehow merged into the original Holy Spirit Son?

But we can discuss that on the other thread.  I would sure like to finish my John 1 Jesus comparisons on this thread.

That way we can go through all the verses again, and see how many hits “the Holy Spirit Son” gets.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Colter @ Mar. 11 2013,10:50)

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,16:06) Hi Mike and all, I would like to move on now. What I would like to look at is:  What is Jesus Now?  i.e. AFTER the resurrection. So I will start up a new thread, perhaps? Good Idea, now that Jesus is a God Jr, with all power and authority in heaven and on earth given to him, did the original God retire? Before Jesus returned to heaven (having merely pre-existed as idea/plan before Mary birthed him) the Jews conceived of only One God in heaven. Now there is God Jr and the Lord God of Israel. How many does that equal? Colter

Good post, Colter.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,15:09)

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,23:06) Hi Mike and all, I would like to move on now. What I would like to look at is:  What is Jesus Now?  i.e. AFTER the resurrection. So I will start up a new thread, perhaps? Yes 2B, Please start a thread called, The Holy Spirit is the Son of God.

Mike, No!

Quote

I was going to ask this today:  Are Jesus and the Holy Spirit STILL separate sons of God, now that Jesus is in heaven?  Or have they somehow merged into the original Holy Spirit Son? But we can discuss that on the other thread.

I do not know the answer to that question, which is why I would like to start up a new thread on that, perhaps.

I believe that when the Holy Spirit was in Jesus, the two were 'as if one'.

I have also found a name for this belief. It is called Spirit Christology.

(For anybody who is interested (KERWIN/GENE), this is what I have been reading tonight:

http://books.google.co.nz/books?i….f=false

I hope that link works. Google book links do not often work. It is called “Foundations for a Hispanic Pentecostal Christology” by “Sammy G. Alfaro”

And Paul Newman:

http://www.web-theology.net/linked/a%20spirit%20christology.pdf

Interesting (From what I have read so far, anyway))

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,07:48)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 10 2013,10:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,19:05) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) i believe the son is and alway was in  God Father because the same preexisting Spirit But are you talking about JESUS?  Or are you talking about this OTHER son of God, the Holy Spirit? Mike Tells us if the Word “Begotten” means to bring into Existence” how could Jesus be Begotten on “this Day” when he already existed? Hi Gene, Psalm 2:7 speaks of a long time ago – before the world and all other things were created through Jesus. Remember that the Hebrew word “yowm” can refer to a literal, 24 hour day……… or it can refer to any time period at all. In other words, Psalm 2:7 could easily be translated as, “You are my son; today at this time I have become your father.” Now, would you answer the question in the quote box above?  It was from my last post, and I didn't see an answer in your response.

Mike,

That is a stretch if you are concluding “at this time” means from before the world began to the time Jehovah spoke the words “at this time”.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,07:57)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2013,13:28) Oh brother! If wisdom is given at any time, it is brought forth from within. You didn't say “given”.  You said “born”.  Show me a scripture that says wisdom was born.

Mike,

Do you want the literal words or will the idea do?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,07:40)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2013,04:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:27) Kerwin, do you believe the Holy Spirit is ONE Son of God, and Jesus is a completely DIFFERENT Son of God? Mike, As is common to man, you see what you want to see. 2beesee and I choose see something different than you.   Okay.  Now could you answer my question?

Mike,

Your question is vague.  What do you mean by “Son “?

As for me, the Holy Spirit is the Son of God in the same sense Wisdom is the Daughter of God.

Quote

Kabbalists would later view Wisdom as the seminal seed and geometric point from which all creation emanates.[1] Their ideas were indirectly shaped by the early Judaic and Hellenistic texts which conceived of Wisdom poetically as being the “firstborn daughter of God” and “Mother of Creation.” According to the Jewish mystical imagination, wisdom truly personifies the “thought” of God that is ever-present in the universe. In light of this reason, Wisdom is plainly presented here as the first of God’s creatures and as God’s collaborator in the creation of all that was yet to be created, and it is Her presence that now suffuses the entire created order

Here is my source.

[abe]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2013,18:09)

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,23:06) Hi Mike and all, I would like to move on now. What I would like to look at is:  What is Jesus Now?  i.e. AFTER the resurrection. So I will start up a new thread, perhaps? Yes 2B, Please start a thread called, The Holy Spirit is the Son of God. I was going to ask this today:  Are Jesus and the Holy Spirit STILL separate sons of God, now that Jesus is in heaven?  Or have they somehow merged into the original Holy Spirit Son? But we can discuss that on the other thread.  I would sure like to finish my John 1 Jesus comparisons on this thread. That way we can go through all the verses again, and see how many hits “the Holy Spirit Son” gets.

Hi Mike,

I was going to ask this today:  Are Jesus and the Holy Spirit STILL separate sons of God, now that Jesus is in heaven?  Or have they somehow merged into the original Holy Spirit Son?

He married her.

Peace brother…………

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2013,16:11)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,07:40) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2013,04:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:27) Kerwin, do you believe the Holy Spirit is ONE Son of God, and Jesus is a completely DIFFERENT Son of God? Mike, As is common to man, you see what you want to see. 2beesee and I choose see something different than you.   Okay.  Now could you answer my question? Mike, Your question is vague.  What do you mean by “Son “? As for me, the Holy Spirit is the Son of God in the same sense Wisdom is the Daughter of God. Quote Kabbalists would later view Wisdom as the seminal seed and geometric point from which all creation emanates.[1] Their ideas were indirectly shaped by the early Judaic and Hellenistic texts which conceived of Wisdom poetically as being the “firstborn daughter of God” and “Mother of Creation.” According to the Jewish mystical imagination, wisdom truly personifies the “thought” of God that is ever-present in the universe. In light of this reason, Wisdom is plainly presented here as the first of God’s creatures and as God’s collaborator in the creation of all that was yet to be created, and it is Her presence that now suffuses the entire created order Here is my source.

K

So you believe the interpretation of the site you are quoting,but you really do not know if the scriptures are supporting this view right

How can a literal son of God be anything else than a son that as been created

How can the holy spirit be a son when it is a tool that God uses constantly

It seems to me you are in need of more twisting scriptures to justifie your unscriptural believe ,

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 13 2013,02:03)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2013,16:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,07:40) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2013,04:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:27) Kerwin, do you believe the Holy Spirit is ONE Son of God, and Jesus is a completely DIFFERENT Son of God? Mike, As is common to man, you see what you want to see. 2beesee and I choose see something different than you.   Okay.  Now could you answer my question? Mike, Your question is vague.  What do you mean by “Son “? As for me, the Holy Spirit is the Son of God in the same sense Wisdom is the Daughter of God. Quote Kabbalists would later view Wisdom as the seminal seed and geometric point from which all creation emanates.[1] Their ideas were indirectly shaped by the early Judaic and Hellenistic texts which conceived of Wisdom poetically as being the “firstborn daughter of God” and “Mother of Creation.” According to the Jewish mystical imagination, wisdom truly personifies the “thought” of God that is ever-present in the universe. In light of this reason, Wisdom is plainly presented here as the first of God’s creatures and as God’s collaborator in the creation of all that was yet to be created, and it is Her presence that now suffuses the entire created order Here is my source. K So you believe the interpretation of the site you are quoting,but you really do not know if the scriptures are supporting this view right How can a literal son of God be anything else than a son that as been created How can the holy spirit be a son when it is a tool that God uses constantly It seems to me you are in need of more twisting scriptures to justifie your  unscriptural believe ,

T,

I believe early “Judaic and Hellenistic” people, like Jesus and his disciples, conceived of God's Wisdom as poetically being the firstborn daughter of God.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2013,04:11)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:27) Kerwin, do you believe the Holy Spirit is ONE Son of God, and Jesus is a completely DIFFERENT Son of God? Mike, Your question is vague.  What do you mean by “Son “? As for me, the Holy Spirit is the Son of God in the same sense Wisdom is the Daughter of God.

Okay Kerwin. So is Jesus a DIFFERENT Son of God than the Holy Spirit is? Are they BOTH “Sons of God”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (abe @ Mar. 12 2013,10:54)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2013,18:09) Are Jesus and the Holy Spirit STILL separate sons of God, now that Jesus is in heaven?  Or have they somehow merged into the original Holy Spirit Son? He married her. Peace brother…………

Where are you seeing a “her”, Abe? I'm only seeing what I think are two SONS of God, according to 2B and Kerwin.

[Ed J]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,21:30)

I may have something wrong in my posts today and yesterday, I did a study on the word “begotten” not long ago, for “Wakeup”.. There is no difference in the words “born of God” and “begotten of God”. It is the same word used in each of the biblical occurrences, and it is the Greek word “Gennáō” Peace

Hi 2Besee,

Good going!
Always investigate
what others say for yourself!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2013,03:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,07:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2013,13:28) Oh brother! If wisdom is given at any time, it is brought forth from within. You didn't say “given”.  You said “born”.  Show me a scripture that says wisdom was born. Mike, Do you want the literal words or will the idea do?

Show what you got, Kerwin.

This is the discussion:  Kathi and I both believe the “wisdom” mentioned in Prov 8 metaphorically refers to Jesus Christ.

The debate we were having is whether verse 22 says that wisdom was CREATED as the first of God's works…….. or POSSESSED as the first of God's works.  The Hebrew word “qanah” has two roots – one meaning “create” and one meaning “possess”.

I'm arguing that since verses 23, 24, and 25 have similar concepts, ie: “established”, “born”, “given birth” – a translation of “created” in verse 22 fits perfectly.

Kathi, on the other hand, doesn't want Jesus to have been “created” at any time.  So she argues that the word in verse 22 is better translated as “possessed” – despite the “born” and “established” concepts in the verses that immediately follow.

Her main argument is:  Yes, I agree Jesus was BORN – but I believe he was already alive forever inside of God before God begot him by bringing him out of His insides.  Therefore, he was BORN, but was not a CREATION – because he already existed from eternity within God before God brought him to the outside.

What can you add to shed some light on the matter?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2013,10:19)

Show what you got, Kerwin. This is the discussion:  Kathi and I both believe the “wisdom” mentioned in Prov 8 metaphorically refers to Jesus Christ.

Hi Mike,

Doesn't it disturb you that “WISDOM” is spoken of as a “She” rather than a “He”?
“Spirit” is also spoken of as a “She” and wisdom is justified of all her children.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 13 2013,10:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2013,10:19) Show what you got, Kerwin. This is the discussion:  Kathi and I both believe the “wisdom” mentioned in Prov 8 metaphorically refers to Jesus Christ. Hi Mike, Doesn't it disturb you that “WISDOM” is spoken of as a “She” rather than a “He”? “Spirit” is also spoken of as a “She” and wisdom is justified of all her children. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

…and it's God's HolySpirit that makes us son's of God.  (ref. Rom 8:15)

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