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Kathi: The unformed and void heaven and earth and day and night were created on day one. Light was brought forth on day one, not created. The created lights came on day 4.
Atta girl. 🙂 I still believe that if “Let there be” meant something new in each other instance, it meant something new in verse 3 as well.
T8: Gravity provides conditions similar to throwing a ball inside a moving car vs air resistance from throwing the same ball on a moving bike.
Ah, but first you must prove that such a thing even exists. How will you do it?
Nick: Hi LU,
Indeed the Spirit said through Jesus.
’I proceeded forth and came from God’
and
‘Befoe Abraham I am’
Those unfamiliar with the Spirit speaking through the vessel attribute the words to the vessel.
Your theology doesn’t align with the scriptures, Nick. For example, if the words in 58 were said by the Spirit speaking through the vessel, who said the words in verses 54-56? Because the same entity said all of those words… as it was an ongoing discussion. To assume regular old Jesus was talking, then all of a sudden the Spirit popped in to say that it (the Spirit) existed before Abraham, how could the Jews to whom Jesus and the Spirit were speaking make heads or tails of what was going on?
No, the words in 58, like the words in the rest of the discussion, were the words of Jesus himself.
Nick: Hi Dig4,
If you lose faith in scientists and believe that there is a massive conspiracy afoot to con the masses
then you are only left with your own observations to trust…
By all means, never trust your own senses and God-given logic. Just blindly trust everything men called scientists tell you. 😀 I can’t believe you said that. Hey Nick, what do the scientists trust as they’re trying to figure things out? 🙂
D4T: The Coriolis Effect is a myth. Snipers don’t really take it into account…
Foucault’s Pendulums are often quoted as proof of a rotating Earth but upon closer investigation prove the opposite…
…just like Foucault’s Pendulums spinning either which way, sinks and toilets in the Northern and Southern hemispheres do not consistently spin in any one direction!
Great stuff. May I suggest you take these things one at a time, and allow the others to address them, thereby getting a good back and forth on each instead of a flood of info that’s too much for them to address in one response?
T8: “The atmosphere thins out and is almost at zero before hitting space. That makes sense. I use to live in Bogota which is about 2700m above seal level. It was hard to breathe up there, and while you didn’t notice it right away, you certainly did when you went for a run.
If it air pressure were the same density all the way up, then the vacuum would affect the atmosphere like air getting sucked out a hole in a plane for sure. But the idea that a vacuum sucks might be sound when working out how a vacuum cleaner works. However, a vacuum cleaner doesn’t have zero air pressure or a piece of space inside does it. What really happens regarding the atmosphere is high air pressure is stronger than low air pressure or space, so the high air pressure simply flows into the lower air pressure zone or into space. But if the upper atmosphere has almost zero air pressure, then loss of atmosphere will be almost non-existent or extremely slow.
Maybe think of it as a water container with a hole in it that leads to another container. The water won’t flow into the other container because there is already water in it and the pressure is the same so to speak. But if there was no water in the other container just air (which is lower in pressure or density) then the water will move into the lower pressure / density space. If one container had saltwater and the other fresh water, I am willing to guess that the saltwater will very slowly flow into the freshwater till equilibrium takes place because saltwater is denser than freshwater.
So why doesn’t the miniscule amount of atmosphere vacate and move into the zero pressure of space? Apparently Earth does lose a miniscule amount of atmosphere, but it would take billions of years before we lost our atmosphere and suffer the same fate as Mars. Because Mars is smaller, it lost its atmosphere quicker because the force of gravity of that planet is less than Earth, thus they lost their atmosphere quicker than we will. And without googling this, I will go out on a limb and say the reason high air pressure doesn’t do the equilibrium thing with lower air pressure higher up is because of gravity. Gravity is stronger the closer to Earth you are, so it would stand to reason that the airpressure is higher there than further up. If this is a wrong explanation, I am sure there is a logical explanation that I could google.”
T8, you didn’t answer any of my questions, did you?
When you say “space” what you really mean is a perfect vacuum.
A vacuum cleaner would not even compare to the vacuum of space but even on earth a vacuum cleaner can suck in air. How much more the vacuum of “space”?
Questions you didn’t answer:
[T]he force of gravity is stronger than the force of a near perfect vacuum?
The lesser density of the atmosphere is juxtaposed to the greatest vacuum, greater than anything we could produce on the earth’s surface, and somehow the atmosphere is not very effected by it. Why?
Because of this extremely weak force (gravity) at its greatest distance and the least amount of mass to exert that force on (higher atmosphere) but somehow it (gravity) wins over the incredible strong near perfect vacuum. Why?
Mike….Tell us who said this, “destory this “temple” and in three days (I) shall raise “it” up. That could not have been Jesus saying that because he said he was “dead” and the dead can’t raise themselves. So it was God the Father speaking through the very mouth of Jesus that said that. Scripture also says it was God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not raise himself.
So again you logic fails you.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
T8, you said that “high air pressure is stronger than low air pressure or space“.
Can an you back up that claim? Because I have been told that even high air pressure is no match for a strong vacuum (which is what “space” is). Again, we have seen this demonstrated on a thick metal railroad car with a mild vacuum!
David: You replied “the purpose behind it is to hide God.”
I’m not sue I understand. If the universe wasn’t as most believe, with a couple hundred billion galaxies each with let’s say a couple hundred billion stars, many of them billions of light years away, and with planets or clumps of matter or rock being dragged around them, I’m not sure how portraying it this way hides God exactly.
The heliocentric model, with it’s trillions stars and planets made the earth a little insignificant pale blue dot. I posted a quote from Carl Sagan earlier in the thread where he was basically saying, Get over yourself. We are insignificant stardust on an insignificant little planet among trillions of others just like us. There is no transcendent beneficiary coming to save you.
I also quoted Lawrence Krauss saying, “Forget Jesus… the stars died for you!”
The idea that we live in this huge universe gave way to the godless big bang theory, billions of years, accidental circumstances that just happened to place us in one of the good spots in the universe, accidental life from non-living matter, and accidental evolution that resulted in mankind. But what if our world was like a terrarium… and everybody KNEW it?
Who among those people would even waste a second pondering whether our world, and by extension us, were accidents? Everyone would know for a fact that someone or something made this terrarium world on purpose, and therefore likely made the things in it on purpose too.
David: More are you saying this is just some silly idea that doesn’t Match the dome / firmament model of the universe?
I didn’t come to this by way of scriptures first. My first clue was that objects can be seen much further away than possible if we lived on a ball 25,000 miles in circumference. Some of those object are suppose to be MILES behind the curve of the earth – yet we see them. After that, the proofs just kept piling on until it was overwhelmingly clear that we’ve been lied to about where we live. And the proofs I’m talking about are observable, testable, and repeatable. Nobody has to take anyone else’s word for it, because they are things we can all see with our own eyes… like a moon eclipsing from the top down, or a full moon in the daytime. Of course there are tons more, but only after I looked at the observational science side of it was I led to all the scriptures that clearly describe a fixed and stationary earth with the sun, moon, and stars running on appointed circuits over us.
D4T: Nick, I have pointed out several historical empherical scientific test that conclusivey proves the earth is not rotating. Why then would you suggest that I am loosing faith in scientists? I have to assume you are referencing the theoretical ideas that is offered as “science” today. Yes, I don’t have a lot of faith in that kind of pseudo-science.
Scientists have told us that the curvature of the earth drops at 8″ per mile squared. When we measure this we are able to see way past the curvature on a regular basis. Why would you not have faith in this scientific experiment that scientists have provided?
Also, we have the best scientist of all that says the sun has a circuit. That scientist is God!
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Nick: Hi Dig4,
Yes you seem to think you have found all there is to know.
Translation: Dang, I can’t actually address the points D4T made, so I’ll just post some worthless troll tripe. 🙂
Use discernment, T8. Crying “GRAVITY!” doesn’t solve the problem in the least, and yet it is the only thing you guys have to answer it. What is gravity? What observational test has ever been done to confirm it’s existence? How is it so selective that it can hold trillions of cubic tons of water upside down on a spinning ball, yet a butterfly can easily escape it’s grasp? How is it so selective that it can keep certain bodies of mass, like planets, orbiting for eons, but affix other bodies of mass, like us, firmly to the ground… even upside down? Why don’t the planets become affixed, or people orbit around the earth?
Mike, I meant my two posts on that page, not videos.
Gravity is a law that explains why things fall down. If you don’t have gravity, then yes you are free to come up with another explanation that works when you use calculations based on your new theory. No, I am not near upside down living here in New Zealand. lol. There is no up in the universe. IF there was and actual up based on up and down, then in space you wouldn’t float and then ask yourself why the earth disk doesn’t fall down by default and why would everything fall down anyway. But I guess you will say nothing falls, it is the disk that propels upward. But why would upward motion lead to you sticking to the disk. What law is that called?
Mike, crying gravity is like crying electromagnetism, action reaction, cooling, time etc. Yes we are free to discard all these laws that explain what we experience. I would argue though that you need to disprove them if calculations based on them always work. Until then, I will stick with them or at least believe them. They only prove a lawmaker anyway.
Men use to get thrown into prison for preaching science because of religious bigotry. We should be open to all truth from scripture, science, etc.
T8: This was demonstrated to me on the equator with the same basin of water. Just a metre from the equator and the water went in one direction and a metre or say on the other side of the line and it span the other way. Not sure if this was a tourist scam or not…
It is…
Gene: “Mike….Tell us who said this, “destory this “temple” and in three days (I) shall raise “it” up. That could not have been Jesus saying that because he said he was “dead” and the dead can’t raise themselves. So it was God the Father speaking through the very mouth of Jesus that said that. Scripture also says it was God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not raise himself. So again you logic fails you.”
Gene, it is your theology that fails you.
Yeshua did indeed say this: “Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
So Yeshua did say this.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John -0:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
T8: It does seem reasonable to assume that on day 4, the sun, moon, and stars were in the firmament, whereas they were not there before due to the primeval conditions on an ancient earth, not because they didn’t exist.
I’ve addressed this numerous times, and you just keep repeating the same thing without answering my points.
14 “Let there be lights in the firmament…
15 And it was so.
16 God made two great lights…
17 God set them in the firmament…
19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
Your interpretation goes directly against God’s written word. And the shame of it is that, even though you keep refusing to come out and say it, the ONLY reason you try to mangle the scriptures like that is because you believe what godless men have told you (not proven, but just TOLD you) over what God Himself told you through Moses. And that, my friend, is disheartening.
14 “Let there be lights in the firmament…
15 And it was so.
16 God made two great lights…
17 God set them in the firmament…
19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.I have mentioned them a number of times.
If the first day has no sun despite God creating the heavens and the earth on that day, what makes it a day if there is also a morning and evening?
Two great lights appear in the firmanant on day 4, what is the problem with that? Even if they didn’t exist before day 4, then God could easily have created the Earth like a programmer creates a virtual world. He can work on the creation in any order he sees fit, and then put it together and boot it up and there it is.
I see the firmanant as the atmosphere. When I look up into the atmosphere, I see many things including what is beyond. From my perspective it is all in that layer, but equally works if they are just very distant. God and the Bible are not disproved by either supposition. God is still the creator regardless.
Hi Mike,
You clearly do not understand the Spirit.
Neither do you seem to understand how the Spirit spoke through Jesus Christ.
From 2 Peter 1 you should know that God spoke through the prophets and Jesus was the great prophet Moses prophesied about. peter quoted this in Acts3. Likewise you should know from the words of John in Jn3 that he whom God has sent speaks the words of God. Hebrews 1 tells us that in these last days God has spoken to us through His Son. The anointed man, Jesus, said his words were spirit and truth in Jn 6 but you do not believe him?
The Spirit of Christ is the servant Spirit. The Word is the Spirit of Christ. And the servant that Isaiah prophesied about is the Spirit in Christ Jesus. God does not pray to or worship himself but we are told in Rom8 that the Spirit prays to God for our needs. So in the scriptures, including Jn 8.24, we hear the Spirit of Christ speaking.
Sometimes we hear the other Counsellor, the Spirit of truth from the Father, that Jesus had promised to send. An example in Jn 2.19 and Jn 8.58. The Spirit is yet one, as scripture makes plain. The anointed man was a mouthpiece for the Spirit. If you are joined to him they will come to you and you can fellowship with the Father and the Son in that one Spirit.
The bigger challenge to to see where Jesus spoke for himself.
Listen to the Spirit.
T8: …the irrefutable proof of the continent of Antarctica…
What proof?
T8: …yacht and ship navigation of the Southern Ocean…
Yes, sea faring vessels navigate the southern oceans. And?
T8: …seeing moons and planets via telescopes…
We see lights with telescopes. Circular lights. What is your proof they are 3 dimensional terrestrial bodies?
T8: …satellites…
Yes, we send many pieces of equipment, called satellites, high up on balloons. We’ve been doing so since the early 50’s. What is your proof that satellites, as NASA describes them, exist in the thermosphere, where the temperature is said to be 3 times hotter than it would take to melt them all?
T8: …a permantly visible Southern Cross in NZ and South America at the same time while not being visible from North America which lies in between…
I haven’t looked into the that, so I can’t comment on it. But I’ll see your Southern Cross and raise you a Big Dipper. We in the “northern hemisphere” can see it all year long. Think about that, and we’ll talk more later.
T8: and how the Heliocentric model turns all wandering stars into a circular orbit around the sun compared to a much more complex and unexplainable orbit around the Earth.
You simply don’t know your history. Ptolemy’s cosmology had a stationary earth with lights moving around us, and it explained everything just fine from the 2nd century AD until Copernicus in 1600. And even before that, in ancient Babylonia, they had all the eclipses mapped out and predicted, from a flat and stationary point of view. In fact, if you go to the NASA site and check out the eclipses forecast for years to come, they’ll give all credit to one guy, whose data was taken right from the ancient Babylonian saros cycles. Btw, although Copernicus’ model called for circular orbits like you said, that had to be adjusted later because it didn’t match the observations. Now we’re told they orbit in ellipses. So which one is “more complex and unexplainable”? The one that has to keep being changed? Or the one from ancient times that modern scientists still use?
T8: As for your points in the quote, I will post up the explanation for seeing full moons during the day.
Fantastic. I can hardly wait. But I’m done for the night. Need to eat and sleep before starting it all over again tomorrow. Did you start the debate thread yet?
Mike,
you said:
Hi Kathi, I’m 7 pages behind, and just got done with a 12 hour work day, so I’m answering briefly today in the hopes I get caught back up. What you make says sense in that it would be wise to have the aquarium ready before buying the fish. And it could be that on that first 24 hour day, God created the heavens (a dwelling place), then brought forth Jesus, then created the angels through him, and then created the earth at which time the angels shouted for joy, and then created light. But in that case, Jesus couldn’t be the light, because according to Gen 1, the heavens and the earth were created, the earth was formless water, and THEN God said, “Let there be light.”
If you believed as I do that the begetting of the Son was done on day one when God said “Let there be Light,” the Firstborn of all creation, then you would further believe that all things made IN heaven and ON earth, visible and invisible, would be after that Light came forth on day one. The heavens are still being prepared after day one.
Gen 1:6Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Prov 8: 27“When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,28When He made firm the skies above,
Heb 1:10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;Mike, kudos to you using the phrase “then brought forth Jesus, then created the angels through him.” I’m glad to see that use of “brought forth”in regards to Jesus as distinguished from “created.”
Also, according to your own idea that “Let there be” brings forth something new then what happens on day two is new and not there before the Light of day one. Day two God said “Let there be and expanse” and He called that “expanse” heaven.
Now, once again about “Let there be” bringing something new, well the begotten God (John 1:18) was new to being “begotten” and new to the new realm of creation.
Mike, you are keeping up pretty good here with all the hours you work. Don’t work yourself to death.
Blessings, LU
Antarctica exists
T8: …the irrefutable proof of the continent of Antarctica…
Mike: What proof?
I have proof of the Antarctica living here in New Zealand. The last stop before Antarctica is Christchurch in New Zealand, a city I have lived in. There is no way you are going to get me to believe that this is all fake. We have fellow citizens, scientists, climatologists, explorers, politicians, and people with talents that are needed in the frozen continent. There exist flights for tourists where people like you and me can shell out $5000 and fly over it. You get to see volcanoes, mountains, etc. No way ever that is all fake. Way to elaborate. The only reason you think Antarctica is not the 6th or 8th continent is because it would refute the Flat Earth. You have nothing else. I have photos of the International Antarctic Centre which I posted in this thread taken with my own camera. Come on Mike. We have some of their penguins in zoos, and our Southerly wind comes direct from Antarctica. New Zealand has a long history with the Antarctica and has territory there. It would be a bit like me denying Alaska exists because that feels like a million miles from where I am right now, so might not actually exist.
https://www.antarcticanz.govt.nz/
https://www.antarcticanz.govt.nz/whats-new/
BTW, @nickhassan, here is the ice wall you doubted existed and trolled Mike regarding it. Got the photo from the site linked above. Are you weeping now? lol.
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