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Most of us live in an age of increased knowledge and technology
Wow that was amazing, @SpaceX #FalconHeavy pic.twitter.com/Y0ozNxUtun
— Forger Stucky (@Stuck4ger) November 1, 2022
But some still live in the stone age it seems.
Let me remind you that you already lost this debate.
Here’s the argument, which totally destroyed the globe lie:
The idea that people are standing, ships are sailing and planes are flying upside down on certain parts of Earth while others tilted at 90 degrees and all other impossible angles is complete absurdity.
God-given common sense is the winner!My advise to you is to never say that if you ever preach the gospel. You know the old saying:
Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt
Seriously, your reason is a foolish one to the extreme, but you are free to have an opinion. Just don’t mix God into this argument because:
A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
Imagine if Jesus disciples went around saying what you just said. They would have created a short-lived cult rather than the church.
I think you can relate to this.
Ppoclaimer…….Please change Biblical Cosmology, to “Mikeboll64’s, beliefs in a, “flat earth”. Lest anyone think we and this site, have anything to do with it. Mike brought up this stupidity let him bear the brunt of it . There is not point of giving that subject “any sense of legitimacy” as “BIBLE COSMOLOGY”, IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……..gene
Proclaimer: He may be right or wrong … Webb Telescope has not imaged a water layer outside the cosmos itself. If that happens, then I could be definite in my answer.
That’s what this Bible Vs Scientism debate was for, Proclaimer. I wanted you to just come out and declare for the record that your ultimate authority is not God’s written word, but Scientism… and you’ve done that with flying colors in your statement above.
Translation: If Scientism confirms what the Bible says, then – and only then – the Bible is right. If Scientism says things contrary to the Bible, then the Bible is wrong about those things.
Thanks for playing. I’ve gotten what I was after.
Mike: Genesis 1:7… Thus God made the raqia, and divided the waters which were under the raqia from the waters which were above the raqia.
Very simple question: Does this scripture say there are waters above the raqia itself? Yes or No?
Pretender: If the biblical word can only mean ‘above’ then yes, the scripture would be stating that. It might have other meanings for all I know.
If only there were some way to find out the things it could mean – like maybe a Hebrew dictionary or a concordance or lexicon. Dang… too bad those things don’t exist and so you’ll be forever wondering what the word might mean. 🙄🙄🙄
And from a logical point of view… what COULD it possibly mean? The raqia DIVIDES the waters into two parts, one of which is UNDER the raqia, and the other of which is ___________ the raqia.
Now what could that missing word be? Let me check the Hebrew dictionary real quick…
It lists “above”, “over”, “upon”. I wonder if one of those might align with the context.
Pretender, I accept your answer of YES, since “wondering” about other things it could mean without bothering to check it out and without offering any other viable options or possibilities is just a stalling method you’ve been using for almost a year on this particular point.
The answer – YOUR answer – is YES, that scripture CLEARLY says there are waters UPON/ABOVE the raqia.
Thank you.
Pretender: If it is ‘above’ only, then he could be referring to the first heaven.
This is not the answer of a man seeking Biblical truth, but of a man trying desperately to AVOID Biblical truth. But I’ll play along… What is your definition of “the first heaven”? Obviously the space between the sea and the clouds – since you claim that clouds are the waters ABOVE the raqia, right? But did you know that birds fly ABOVE the clouds? So in your understanding, birds fly ABOVE (not in) heaven. Does that sound legit to you?
Secondly, if the first heaven ends at the clouds, then it must mean the second heaven begins right above the clouds, right? So ANYTHING above the clouds (airplanes, weather balloons, satellites and even birds) fly in the SECOND heaven. Does that sound legit to you?
And thirdly, let’s see how your suggestion that “he could be referring to the first heaven” holds up to YOUR OWN answer to the second question…
Mike: Genesis 1:14-17… Then God said, Let there be lights in the raqia of the heavens… God set them in the raqia of the heavens…
Very simple question: Does this scripture say God placed the luminaries IN the raqia of the heavens? Yes or No?
Pretender: I think yes…
So are the sun, moon and stars IN what you suggested could be “the first heaven”? Are the luminaries UNDER the clouds that birds and airplanes can fly above? Are you saying that a bird or an airplane can fly ABOVE the sun and the moon because those lights are UNDER the clouds?
If not, then your suggestion that the raqia could be “the first heaven” has been exposed as the nonsense it is by YOUR OWN words!
So where does that leave us so far? You have agreed that YES, there are waters ABOVE/UPON the raqia. And you have now agreed that the raqia couldn’t possibly be the space between the sea and the clouds. But doing that, you’ve also just ELIMINATED your lame and utterly ridiculous argument that clouds could be the waters above the raqia.
But wait… there’s more!
Pretender: …but I believe they already existed, but they appeared in the raqia.
And if the sun, moon and stars “appeared in the raqia”, then the raqia can’t possibly be the space between the sea and the clouds, since the sun, moon, and stars are NOT in that space, right?
Pretender: Placement of something and creation of something is two different things.
Agreed. They are most definitely two different things. But what does God’s written word actually say?
Genesis 1… 16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God placed them in the firmament of the heaven…
Yep, they are two different things alright. But the Bible clearly says that God did BOTH of those two different things, right? He MADE them – which is one thing. And then He PLACED them in the raqia – with is a different thing.
Pretender, can you see with your own eyes that God did BOTH of the “two different things” you mentioned? Of course you can.
Pretender: God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. And verse 2 is about a formless earth. So earth already existed from Genesis 1:1 and verse 2 we see earth being mentioned again. So that means the heavens already existed too.
Simple.
Let me highlight just the two MAIN problems with this attempt to escape scriptural truth, okay?
1. You mention a “formless” earth, right? The Bible actually says “formless and void”, doesn’t it? Overlooking for now the fact that “earth” – all throughout the Bible – refers ONLY to dry land and not to a “planet” like you imagine, you still have the problem of your imagined “planet Earth” being VOID. That means EMPTY – as in no mountains yet, no animals, no vegetation, and no mankind, right?
So even in your erroneous understanding where Gen 1:1 says the “planet Earth” already existed, IT WAS EMPTY, right? The things that NOW make up the earth (plants, animals, men) did not fill the earth at that time, right?
So… if there can exist a “planet Earth” that didn’t include all the things that are NOW part of “planet Earth”, then there could have also existed a “heavens” that didn’t include all the things that are NOW a part of the heavens, right?
So you have a logical FAILURE here. You accept that there could exist a “watery planet Earth” that just wasn’t yet filled with the things that fill it now – but you REJECT the possibility that there could also therefore exist a “heavens” that wasn’t yet filled with the sun, moon and stars that fill it now.
So your argument is: Gen 1:1 says the earth already existed – BUT IT WAS EMPTY, and therefore, it means the heavens also already existed – BUT THEY WERE ALREADY FILLED.
The two are contradictory. If the “planet Earth” existed but was EMPTY, then it logically follows that the heavens existed and were likewise EMPTY.
2. And that would easily explain why the following verses are filled with God creating the things that currently FILL the earth and the heavens.
Understand? Your argument that Gen 1:1 says the heavens and earth already existed is already debunked by the FACT that God didn’t create heaven until Day 2, and earth until Day 3.
But it fails even more miserably when we learn that God didn’t create the things that FILL the heavens until Day 4, and the things that FILL the earth until Days 5 and 6.
Pretender: I know you will try and refute or ignore the truth of the matter, but that is your decision. I only respect the truth and the truth is that the earth already existed, thus the heavens did as well.
You are free to keep spouting that nonsense that has God creating light AFTER it already existed, creating heaven AFTER it already existed, creating earth AFTER it already existed, and creating the sun, moon and stars AFTER they already existed.
But unless you are arguing that the earth of Gen 1:1 was already FILLED with everything that fills it now, you have no leg to stand on when claiming that the heavens of Gen 1:1 WERE filled with everything that fills them now.
See Tiger, the luminaries are not the heavens themselves – but things that FILL the heavens. Just like plants, animals and people are not the earth itself – but things that FILL the earth.
And when we can read in the following verses how God CREATED the things that currently FILL both the heavens and the earth, you can keep on arguing until the cows come home that Gen 1:1 says an EMPTY earth already existed – but then you must also argue that an EMPTY heavens already existed.
You can’t LOGICALLY or HONESTLY argue that an EMPTY earth and a FILLED heavens already existed in Gen 1:1 – especially when the following verse explicitly tell us how and when God CREATED the things that currently fill both of them.
Nice chat. This post went a little deep, so feel free to ask your 12 year old to help you understand it if you need to.
Pretender: Imagine if Jesus disciples went around saying what you just said. They would have created a short-lived cult rather than the church.
You mean the disciples who knew about Neb’s dream of a tree so tall it could be seen from the entire flat plane – and about Jesus’ own account of Satan taking him to the top of a very high mountain from which he could see all the kingdoms of the world on our flat plane?
Those disciples?
The ones who knew about Joshua commanding the sun and moon to stand still in the sky – not the earth to stop revolving?
The ones who knew about David describing the sun as rushing out of its chambers and running its God-appointed circuit over the flat earth from one end of the heavens to the other?
The ones who knew about Isaiah’s description of God looking down upon the CIRCLE of the earth and how God created the heavens as a TENT to cover the flat circle on which we live?
The ones who knew about Jesus being “wisdom” in Prov 8, and saying he was there when God inscribed a CIRCLE on the face of the deep?
The ones who knew from Jesus that stars are just lights in the sky that can – and WILL – fall to the earth? Can you imagine just ONE of your giant “outer space fireballs” falling “to” the earth – let alone tons of them? 😅😂
Dude, you make yourself a fool by even remotely suggesting that Jesus and his disciples (or ANYONE they ever talked to) thought we lived on a spinning ball with ships clinging onto the sides and bottom of it.
You might still believe that today because you are gullible and can’t break free of the indoctrination – but even the most ardent heliocentric promoters will tell you point blank that the Bible is a flat earth book. They’ll say it’s because they just didn’t understand the shape of our world back then, but they make it abundantly clear that the Bible is most definitely 100% a flat earth book.
In fact, the ONLY ones who dare to make themselves into fools by trying to deny this fact are the indoctrinated Christians who believe we live on a spinning ball but also don’t want the Bible to be wrong. Those are the only clowns trying to PRETEND that the Bible “isn’t actually” a flat earth book.
So do yourself a favor… trash talk the flat earth all you want, but don’t sink so low as to suggest that the people of Jesus’ day somehow “knew” we lived on a spinning ball orbiting the sun, when the model didn’t even gain any popularity until the early 1900’s.
Gene: Ppoclaimer…….Please change Biblical Cosmology, to “Mikeboll64’s, beliefs in a, “flat earth”.
Thanks Gene. I’d be honored to have my name prominently displayed on a thread where I simply show what God and the Bible actually teach about our world.
Hey… any chance you’re getting closer to directly answering any of my Biblical questions you’ve been ignoring? Are you a man? Or a scared little girl?
Pretender:
Now take the walls and the roof off the train to make a fair comparison since the “ball earth” doesn’t have walls and a roof,.
Does it still work? Of course not. But this is the level of your ignorance. You post silly memes as if they mean something when if you’d just take one minute to think the meme through for yourself, you’d too see how silly it was and not post it.
It’s like I’m in a battle of wits against a 3 year old.
Regarding your explanation in the post above
Thank you for attempting to address this, rather than ignore it.
Next Step:
All you need to understand now is that the you are inside the atmosphere.A bit like a fish that is inside water. What goes on inside the water has little bearing with what is happening outside. So think of both the sea and the atmosphere as being inside that train.
And your argument about our atmosphere being immediately sucked out into space is wrong too. Also think of water, in particular the sea. Why isn’t that being sucked out into the air due to pressure differences?
Yes it evaporates, and yes we loose a little bit of atmosphere.
Perhaps your brain can’t handle this, but while I’m talking about water, here is another bit of info that helps demonstrate reality.
Imagine a bucket of water with a soccer ball floating atop. Then imagine spinning it and pretend it is the sun. Now place pingpong ball planets in the bucket. What happens? They go into orbit. The soccer ball is dragging the water around itself and the balls follow suit.
Now understand that water, air, and space are all things. They behave similarly. Scientists often refer to the fabric of space as space apparently has weight just as water and air do.
If you cannot comprehend what I am saying, then I can only hope that you humble yourself and realise your own inadequacies instead of letting pride blow your ego up to the point if self-delusion where you become wise in your own eyes.
Millions are in on the conspiracy. Even God.
Really? God knows everything and he wants us to believe the world is flat supposedly, by stating it in the bible apparently, (although no one knows where exactly). But then, during a lunar eclipse, the shadow of earth clearly shows curvature.
Figure that out flatties. Why would God do that?
Because reality.
The earth is a globe and the bible doesn’t teach a flat world.
Simple!
Gene:
Please change Biblical Cosmology, to “Mikeboll64’s, beliefs in a, “flat earth”. Lest anyone think we and this site, have anything to do with it. Mike brought up this stupidity let him bear the brunt of it . There is not point of giving that subject “any sense of legitimacy” as “BIBLE COSMOLOGY”, IMO.Mike:
Thanks Gene. I’d be honored to have my name prominently displayed on a thread where I simply show what God and the Bible actually teach about our world.DONE!
For now I have changed ‘earth’ to ‘world’. FE words together might indicate to google that there is low quality content. I will change ‘world’ to ‘earth’ when this topic dies down and doesn’t appear much in the Recent Replies list on every page.
Mike, does the sun travel at mach 2.7 or thereabouts?
Yes / No.
Hi Mike. Have you given the answer yet?
Or what speed does the sun travel in the flat earth model?
Feel free to consult the best flat earth scientific minds.
I need a figure. What do flat earth scientists say?
Or maybe they haven’t thought about it?
Lol.
Pretender: Thank you for attempting to address this, rather than ignore it.
Are you suggesting that every silly meme you take 3 seconds to paste onto this thread is a “challenge” to me that I must directly address? Hmm… Does that work both ways?
Pretender: Next Step:
All you need to understand now is that the you are inside the atmosphere.Yep… just as your three meme people would be if you removed the walls and roof of that train. Go on…
Pretender: A bit like a fish that is inside water. What goes on inside the water has little bearing with what is happening outside. So think of both the sea and the atmosphere as being inside that train.
What? The words are English, I grant you… but I’m not seeing anything remotely resembling a cognitive thought. Maybe try again?
Proclaimer: And your argument about our atmosphere being immediately sucked out into space is wrong too. Also think of water, in particular the sea. Why isn’t that being sucked out into the air due to pressure differences?
Again with the sea? Water is a different medium than air. It is much denser. You might as well ask why a lower layer in this density column doesn’t suck out into a higher layer…
Pretender: Perhaps your brain can’t handle this… Imagine a bucket of water with a soccer ball floating atop. Then imagine spinning it and pretend it is the sun. Now place pingpong ball planets in the bucket…
Science is clearly not your forte, Tiger. Let me help you out, using your model. Let’s walk through the making of our pressurized atmosphere, step by step, and you can explain to me how we got from the first air molecule to our current pressurized atmosphere existing directly adjacent to the most powerful vacuum ever imagined by man…
In the beginning, there was the molten (or water) Earth. An air molecule was floating along in the vacuum of space, and it affixed itself to the surface of our planet.
Only one question: WHY?
Pretender: If you cannot comprehend what I am saying, then I can only hope that you humble yourself and realise your own inadequacies instead of letting pride blow your ego up to the point if self-delusion where you become wise in your own eyes.
Well, I’m here and ready to learn from “Master Great-In-His-Own-Eyes”. Lay it on me by answering that first question, and we’ll go from there.
Pretender: The earth is a globe and the bible doesn’t teach a flat world.
Will you state for the record that you believe that the people who wrote the Bible knew all along that we lived on a spinning ball orbiting the sun, but for some reason, people didn’t even think about that until Copernicus 500 years ago, and actually start to believe it 100 years ago?
Is that what you think? Jesus knew we lived on a ball, but then told a story about being able to see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain?
God knew we lived on a ball, but then caused a dream in which a tree could be seen from everywhere on earth?
David knew we lived on a ball orbiting the sun, but then described the sun as running a circuit from one end of the heaven to the other?
Joshua knew we lived on a ball orbiting the sun, but then commanded the sun to stop in the midst of heaven instead of commanding the earth to stop spinning?
Really, Pretender? Are you REALLY about to claim that the Bible is a ball earth book, and we just didn’t come to realize the truth of this book until 100 years ago?
Please. You’re embarrassing yourself again.
Gene: Ppoclaimer…….Please change Biblical Cosmology, to “Mikeboll64’s, beliefs in a, “flat earth”. Lest anyone think we and this site, have anything to do with it.
Pretender: DONE!
See? You ARE the left. 😂 This thread is about Biblical Cosmology. We’ve been asking you questions about the shape (and age) of our world as related to what the Bible teaches about it. You and Gene have FAILED MISERABLY, and have decidedly already lost the debate.
But hey, if you want to go with Gene’s “cancel culture” title, then could you at least write it as an intelligent adult would, and not a 2nd grader? In titles, you cap all major words. Let me help you out so you don’t make your site look like it’s run by a kindergartner…
Mikeboll64’s Belief in a Flat World
Try that, Sport. You’re welcome.
Now, on the other hand, it’d be funny to see you put it EXACTLY how Gene put it…
Mikeboll64’s, beliefs in a, “flat earth”
Make sure to leave the unnecessary commas after “Mikeboll64’s” and “a”, and the extra space between “a,” and “flat earth”.
You two are more and more alike every day. You have asked at least 5 questions in the past week with no question mark at the end. I’m sure that’s also how Gene’s journey to the gibberish he posts these days began too. 😅
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