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Proclaimer, please answer these two questions directly and honestly. Thank you.
Genesis 1:7… And God made the raqia, and divided the waters which were under the raqia from the waters which were above the raqia.
1. PROCLAIMER, DOES THERE EXIST SOMETHING CALLED THE RAQIA THAT DIVIDES THE WATERS UNDER IT FROM THE WATERS ABOVE IT? YES OR NO?
Genesis 1:16-17… God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the raqia…
2. PROCLAIMER, DID GOD SET THE SUN, MOON, AND STARS IN THE RAQIA? YES OR NO?
Ding Dong! Hopefully this time Mike
100th time lucky? Let’s see.
1. PROCLAIMER, DOES THERE EXIST SOMETHING CALLED THE RAQIA THAT DIVIDES THE WATERS UNDER IT FROM THE WATERS ABOVE IT? YES OR NO?
Yes, there exists heaven / raqia / sky / space between the waters below and above. Anyone knows that by just looking. Lol.
PROCLAIMER, DID GOD SET THE SUN, MOON, AND STARS IN THE RAQIA? YES OR NO?
Yes, God set the stars including our sun and other celestial bodies like the moon and planets in the heaven / raqia / sky / space.
Further, God dwells in the heaven / raqia / sky / space. Yet, I bet you do not believe he is embedded in a glass dome or floats under it. So you might need to understand that there could be three heavens and heavens / raqia / sky / space covers a lot of area and can be applied specifically to different layers. But if you continue to ignore that fact, then you need to believe these two lies as well:
- Paul wasn’t caught up the third heaven because there is only one.
- God dwells in heaven just like the stars you keep mentioning, thus your God is embedded in the glass dome. This only make sense if the Sun God is God coupled with Flat earth. Very primitive I might add. It’s what some pagans beleived.
There it is Mike. Please read the answers slowly. Take your time. I’m not sure I can put it any simpler than this. If you can’t grasp it, would putting the explanation in cartoon form help?
But so I know you have read my post, I ask you a question in return. Please answer this question Mike.
Does God dwell in Heaven?
Now stop delaying your world shattering bring back the sun experiment.
Go now!
And I have noticed for quite some time that you simply ignore all the truth bombs that have been dropped in this topic.
Typical flat earther. Ignores truth to maintain belief. This means you have deceived yourself.
Flat Earth doesn’t match reality for the Southern Hemisphere
The southern hemisphere makes zero sense on the flat earth
Flat earth maps destroy the true shape of continents and islands in the southern hemisphere. Once again, their lying maps do not match reality. Generally speaking, they steal 3d projections on 2D maps and claim that this is their map when they didn’t even create them. Hilarious.
Below you can see how skewed the distance from NZ to South America is. It is about 5 times the width of the USA. This doesn’t match reality. I have travelled this route and there is no way that I covered such a distance.
The width of AUS is also stretched bigger than the USA, when in reality, the width of the USA is 1.3 times the width of AUS. The flat earth map cannot incorporate all the truths of distances and area of countries and oceans. It becomes accurate only when the map is a globe. Only on a globe is the Southern Hemisphere accurate. Flat Earthers ignore this because they ignore truth and reality.
Conclusion
Flat Earthers steal maps of 3d projections on 2d maps. They claim that these reflect reality when in fact they were created by people trying to represent the globe on a flat piece of paper. Such projections are inaccurate and always have been. That globe in the classroom is the true map.
Now explain which “Up” points to God’s throne and the thrones of the 24 elders that surround Him in that second image. I’ll wait…
Proclaimer:
Ding Dong! Hopefully this time Mike
100th time lucky? Let’s see.
That’s a rather strange header for a post in which you’ve finally directly and honestly answered a couple of very easy Yes or No questions for the VERY FIRST TIME. 🤔 Ahh… maybe you’re referring to the number of times I ASKED the questions and you DIDN’T answer them. Okay, now it makes sense.
Mike: 1. PROCLAIMER, DOES THERE EXIST SOMETHING CALLED THE RAQIA THAT DIVIDES THE WATERS UNDER IT FROM THE WATERS ABOVE IT? YES OR NO?
Proclaimer: Yes, there exists heaven / raqia / sky / space between the waters below and above. Anyone knows that by just looking. Lol.
Yes indeed, anyone can easily see that just by looking at the scriptures I repeatedly posted along with the questions… which makes me wonder why I’ve had to jump through so many hoops and repost and beg just to finally get your affirmative answer. 🤔
Nonetheless, you have finally acknowledged that there are not only waters below heaven/raqia/sky/space, but also waters ABOVE heaven/raqia/sky/space. Furthermore, you have acknowledged that heaven/raqia/sky/space is BETWEEN these two distinct bodies of water. So clearly you can understand that the waters are not IN heaven/raqia/sky/space, but both ABOVE AND BELOW heaven/raqia/sky/space, right?
So now can you directly and honestly acknowledge the utter failure of your “clouds are the waters above” fiasco? How about you, Gene? After all, you guys repeatedly call me an idiot, said I was stupid, and went out of your way to ridicule me – all the while going just as far out of your way to NOT answer the two simple questions, right? So I think it’s only fair that both of you right now say something like…
“We’re very sorry, Mike. We were idiots to call you an idiot when what you were saying was right all along, and what we were saying was clearly wrong. Please accept our apologies.”
Mike: PROCLAIMER, DID GOD SET THE SUN, MOON, AND STARS IN THE RAQIA? YES OR NO?
Proclaimer: Yes, God set the stars including our sun and other celestial bodies like the moon and planets in the heaven / raqia / sky / space.
Wow… two direct and honest answers in a single Proclaimer post? That’s unheard of! But just think how quickly this entire debate could have gone if you would have just directly and honestly answered my questions as they were asked – instead of running me around in circles for MONTHS just to get a direct answer to a single question. Dude, we could have been done with this entire Bible Vs Scientism debate within a week!
At any rate, you’ve answered now, haven’t you? Good. And what have your scripturally based answers taught us?
1. The waters are both above and below heaven/raqia/sky/space.
2. The sun, moon and stars are in heaven/raqia/sky/space.
3. This excludes the clouds from being the waters above heaven/raqia/sky/space, since it would mean the clouds were above the space that the sun, moon and stars are in.
4. We now need a different answer from you and Gene as to what the waters above heaven/raqia/sky/space actually are.
Gene and Proclaimer, knowing now that “clouds” can’t possibly be the waters above the place that the sun, moon and stars are in – what is your new answer to what the waters above the raqia are? Thanks.
Proclaimer: Further, God dwells in the heaven / raqia / sky / space. Yet, I bet you do not believe he is embedded in a glass dome or floats under it. So you might need to understand that there could be three heavens and heavens / raqia / sky / space covers a lot of area and can be applied specifically to different layers.
First of all, let me point out for the record that any inability on my part to answer things we simply aren’t told in the scriptures does NOT negate the fact that clouds can’t be the waters above based on things we ARE told in the scriptures. Do you understand that concept, Proclaimer? Let me give you a different example…
We are told that Satan took Jesus up a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world. That part qualifies as something we ARE told in scripture. My inability to answer things that we AREN’T told in scripture (such as where this mountain is, what is its name, exactly how tall was it, how was Jesus able to see so far through the atmosphere, etc.) doesn’t negate the FACT that we ARE told that Satan took Jesus up a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth. Understand?
I think you’re old enough now to be told these uncomfortable truths and understand them.
Mike: The Bible says there is a heaven.
Proclaimer: Oh yeah? What color is the grass in heaven?
Mike: I don’t know. The Bible doesn’t say anything about that.
Proclaimer: Well then I win… there is no heaven after all.
Can you see that you wouldn’t be making a valid argument in the above scenario? So if scripture tells us that God created vegetation on Day 4, then it’s not a valid argument on your part to say, “Really Mike? When have you ever seen a full grown tree come into existence in a single day?”
You do this a lot, and I just think the time has come for you to know that these are the kinds of arguments a small child would make, not an intelligent adult.
That being said, let’s get to the crux of your INVALID argument. I’ll do that in my next post.
Proclaimer: Further, God dwells in the heaven / raqia / sky / space. Yet, I bet you do not believe he is embedded in a glass dome or floats under it. So you might need to understand that there could be three heavens and heavens / raqia / sky / space covers a lot of area and can be applied specifically to different layers.
The raqia was the second thing God created (after light/days). After He created it, He named it heaven. At this time, there was only one thing known as “heaven” – and that was the raqia that separated the waters above from the waters below. This was before He gathered the waters below into seas. It was before He created the clouds, the sun, the moon, and the stars. At that time, there was ONLY waters below the raqia, waters above the raqia, and the raqia itself, which divided the original waters that the Spirit of God hovered over into two parts. In other words, at that time, there was only one thing call “heaven”, and that thing was strong/solid enough to support trillions of tons of water above it.
You with me so far? Okay.
As time went by, the Israelites/Jews began to refer to 3 different heavens. The first heaven was the sky in which the birds fly. The second heaven was the raqia itself, the strong and solid vault that supported trillions of tons of water, and in which the sun, moon, and stars ran their God-appointed circuits over the earth. (Well, all but seven of the stars, which rejected the circuit God gave them to run and chose their own courses. We read about these seven stars in Enoch, and about the very dark and foreboding place God has in store for them for disregarding His command. In the Bible, they are called “wandering stars”. You call them “planets”.)
The third heaven is where God Himself dwells – presumably above the raqia that contains the sun, moon, stars, and wandering stars.
This is one of the things we aren’t directly told in scripture. Is it possible that God dwells IN the raqia? Not likely, since there would be no “third heaven” then, right? Also, it’s hard to believe that God built a physical structure in which to dwell, when He was already dwelling someplace before He created our physical world. Also, we know from scripture that there are waters above the raqia, which God let through floodgates in the raqia to flood the earth in Noah’s day.
So because of God opening and closing the floodgates during Noah’s day, we can surmise that the “waters above” are directly above, supported by, and resting upon the second heaven… the raqia.
I believe the third heaven where God dwells is directly above the waters that are directly above the second heaven/raqia. Consider…
Revelation 4… 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
Is this “sea of glass” the waters above the second heaven/raqia? Does God’s throne rest on the “waters above”?
This is a fairly accurate depiction of the world the Bible describes…
The sun, moon and stars should be IN the raqia/firmament – not beneath it. But other than that, we can see that our air and the clouds and birds are in the “first heaven”, which is beneath the second (and original) heaven. Then we see the waters that are above the second heaven – and the floodgates through which God let those waters flood the earth. And then above the waters that are above the second heaven is God’s dwelling place in the third heaven.
God’s throne apparently sits upon the waters that are above the second heaven/firmament/raqia.
Proclaimer: But if you continue to ignore that fact, then you need to believe these two lies as well:
Paul wasn’t caught up the third heaven because there is only one.
God dwells in heaven just like the stars you keep mentioning, thus your God is embedded in the glass dome. This only make sense if the Sun God is God coupled with Flat earth. Very primitive I might add. It’s what some pagans beleived.
There it is Mike. Please read the answers slowly. Take your time. I’m not sure I can put it any simpler than this. If you can’t grasp it, would putting the explanation in cartoon form help?So now that I’ve offered my explanation, you realize that I DON’T “need to believe these two lies”, right?
There are indeed 3 heavens in the latter understanding… one where the birds fly, one where the luminaries run their courses over the earth, and one where God dwells. Paul wasn’t taken up to where the birds fly. Or to where the luminaries run their courses. He was taken up to the third heaven, where God dwells.
Proclaimer: But so I know you have read my post, I ask you a question in return. Please answer this question Mike.
Does God dwell in Heaven?
Yes, God dwells above the original firmament/raqia/heaven that He created to separate the waters above from the waters below. That original “heaven” is now considered the second heaven. God dwells above (quite possibly and reasonably UPON) the waters that are above that original – but now considered second – heaven. And God’s dwelling place is now considered the third heaven.
Okay, since none of this changes anything about waters being above the (second) heaven where the sun, moon and stars run their courses… what ARE these waters in your heliocentric worldview?
Okay… while Proclaimer and Gene lick their wounds and try to come up with their next unscriptural explanation for what the waters ABOVE the place where the sun, moon and stars are, I can finally move on to my next of dozens of direct arguments that Proclaimer has run away from for many months.
Proclaimer and Gene, your understanding of Genesis 1 has God…
1. Creating light after light already existed.
2. Creating heaven after heaven already existed.
3. Creating earth after earth already existed.
4. Creating the sun, moon, and stars after the sun, moon, and stars already existed.
Please explain to us how God could create all these things AFTER they already existed. Thanks.
Okay… while Proclaimer and Gene lick their wounds
Bahahahahaha!
Stop stalling and bring back the sun.
And a reminder that the flat earth map is stupid.
That’s a rather strange header for a post in which you’ve finally directly and honestly answered a couple of very easy Yes or No questions for the VERY FIRST TIME.
Ding dong! No it isn’t. Just slightly reworded from the other posts that explain the very same thing. But I get it. It wasn’t written simple enough for you. I’m glad you got it this time. I am not very good and drawing cartoons, so wasn’t looking forward to that.
GENE AND PROCLAIMER, KNOWING NOW THAT “CLOUDS” CAN’T POSSIBLY BE THE WATERS ABOVE THE PLACE THAT THE SUN, MOON AND STARS ARE IN – WHAT IS YOUR NEW ANSWER TO WHAT THE WATERS ABOVE THE RAQIA ARE? THANKS.
Oh boy. Looks like you need a cartoon. You still don’t get it. Lol. Why don’t you discuss a subject that you can understand? What are you good at?
“It makes you want to cherish the Earth and protect it, the more you see it from space.”
Mike……You do realize, don’t you?, Holding on to this flat earth thing put you in the catagory of some of this earths most ignorant people that now exists. It causes people to doubt everything you say Mike.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike………gene
Mike: GENE AND PROCLAIMER, KNOWING NOW THAT “CLOUDS” CAN’T POSSIBLY BE THE WATERS ABOVE THE PLACE THAT THE SUN, MOON AND STARS ARE IN – WHAT IS YOUR NEW ANSWER TO WHAT THE WATERS ABOVE THE RAQIA ARE? THANKS.
Proclaimer: Oh boy. Looks like you need a cartoon. You still don’t get it. Lol. Why don’t you discuss a subject that you can understand? What are you good at?
I’m very good at exposing your ignorance, cowardice, and pride. For example, it took me a very long time, but through patience and perseverance, I was finally able to get you to acknowledge that the sun, moon and stars are IN the raqia and that there are waters ABOVE the raqia that the sun, moon and stars are IN.
Of course this means that “clouds” couldn’t possibly be “the waters above the raqia”, since clouds are not above the thing that the sun, moon and stars are in. Understand? If you want to call the raqia “sky”, then the sun, moon and stars are IN the “sky”, and there are waters ABOVE the “sky”. If you want to call the raqia “expanse”, then the sun, moon and stars are IN the “expanse”, and there are waters ABOVE the “expanse”.
Proclaimer, what are these waters that are ABOVE the “raqia/sky/expanse/heaven”… ie: ABOVE the sun, moon, and stars? Thanks.
Proclaimer: Oh boy. Looks like you need a cartoon. You still don’t get it. Lol.
Yes, please make a cartoon so it’ll be easier to expose YOUR inability to “get it”. Hopefully it will be as entertaining as your explanation that gravity attracts objects with mass – but only to a certain point – and then repels those objects so that they are held in limbo at a certain distance for all eternity. 😉
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