- This topic has 6,414 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 2 months ago by
.
- Posts
I am putting Proclaimer on the Hot Seat. He created this forum years ago for the sole purpose of FORCING someone who is dodging questions to directly answer those questions – under penalty of getting strikes for failing to comply.
For over a month now, Proclaimer has been intentionally dodging dozens of my direct questions about the creation account in Genesis 1. In this thread, he MUST (by his own rules) DIRECTLY ANSWER those questions (and I must directly answer any that he asks.)
First question…
Proclaimer, a day on earth lasts 24 hours, and is governed by the sun-earth cycle. Scientism says that, ever since the sun earth cycle began (4.5 billion years ago), there has NEVER been a day on earth that lasted more than 24 hours.
Knowing this, how long was each day of creation in the Genesis account AFTER the appearance of the sun on day four?
Hey Mike. Good idea. I will keep embarrassing you till you get sick of being shamed.
As for dodging your questions. Are you kidding. I have answered a ton of your questions. Obviously not all because I do not read all due to your many questions and posts. But when I read a post and see an error, then yes, I correct it for the sake of the readers. And if I see a question, I answer right away if I have the time to give a good answer. If not, I try to remember the question so I can answer it another time.
Now this question you have given me is strange. You are specifying from the fourth day when the sun was supposedly created. Despite the heavens and earth already existing. I will answer in the next post.
Plus, I do not want to encourage you to bombard me with questions because I answer them all promptly. I am not here solely to save you from delusion. I have even greater responsibilities to look after first.
A day is not always 24 hours
Before answering your question, I need to debunk your groundwork that led up to your question.
Proclaimer, a day on earth lasts 24 hours, and is governed by the sun-earth cycle. Scientism says that, ever since the sun earth cycle began (4.5 billion years ago), there has NEVER been a day on earth that lasted more than 24 hours.
Science holds that days were not always 24 hours as far as I know. For example, it is believed that in the late Cretaceous period, there were less hours in the day. While the number of days in a year might change, the length of a year is believed to be constant over time, as Earth’s orbit around the sun doesn’t really change.
By the way, I love the term Scientism. By putting ‘ism’ on the end, you want it to sound like it is fake. Yet you argue Young Earth CreationISM. I believe in creation of course. Only a fool denies creation. I just don’t hold to the Sunday School 6 x 24 periods for Young Earth Creationism of the cosmos which I think is fake science. And especially with the Sun created on day four, that makes it laughable. Why would those prior days be 24 hours for a start? Lol.
#ismKNOWING THIS, HOW LONG WAS EACH DAY OF CREATION IN THE GENESIS ACCOUNT AFTER THE APPEARANCE OF THE SUN ON DAY FOUR?
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
It doesn’t matter if the sun is there or not, a day for God is not like a day for us. Further, the Day of Wrath is not 24 hours and the sun is present. So I cannot tell you exactly how long the day was. Just that it is not like a day to us. I cannot speak on behalf of God and give you a measurement. I can only reveal what is written with regards to the length of days for God.
This question is answered ✔
Further,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Notice here Mike two things that dispel your world view.
- The hour of his judgement is not likely to be 60 minutes. I think you would agree. So once again, God has hours, days, weeks, etc, but they do not equal our hours, days, and weeks. God has a different unit and timetable to us.
- God created the heaven or heavens. And earth. And sea. And fountains.
So is the earth in this context talking about the actual planet called earth?
What about earth and sea. Does that mean planet earth and then planet sea?
Or does it simply mean land, sea, and waterways/fountains?
What is your take?
Just remember that today, we use the word ‘earth’ to mean the planet, the land, and even the soil on the land. So context is extremely important.
Is the earth in the bible always talking about the planet?
worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters
If it is the planet, then we now have this celestial object called sea and another one called fountains or waterways.
This is simply saying that God created the sky above, the land under our feet, the sea next to the land, and perhaps the waterways above, on, and under the land. it’s obviously about our world as seen from our perspective.
Under the dome
Hey, you mentioned the other day about pressure and why the atmosphere is not sucked into space. And why a dome is needed to protect the atmosphere. Or maybe I just read an old post.
So my question to you on that subject is where is the dome over the sea? You see, water at the bottom of the ocean has higher pressure just like air on the surface of the earth. So why is either not sucked up to higher altitudes where the pressure is lighter? Further, why doesn’t the water get sucked into the air where the pressure is even lighter again?
You see Mike, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of air pressure. Both water and air is heavier at the bottom because of the weight of water or air above. It’s no different to you holding 3 books stacked on top of each other above your head. If you add more books, the combined weight is heavier. And the pressure excerted on the bottom book is stronger than the top book.
So if water doesn’t need a dome directly above it, then neither does air.
Comprehendo?
Okay, that is the Air pressure argument done and dusted ✔
#underpressure
It’s good to knock these false arguments off one at a time. Thank you for assisting in this and offering to summarise all previous debates on this subject in one debate topic. It should make for some easy and entertaining reading.
Mike……before you start, why not EXPLAIN what the word “SCIENTISM” means, I have never heard of the word before you mentioned it here.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike……….gene
Here is what Wikipedia says:
Scientism is the view that science and scientific method are the best or only objective means by which people should determine normative and epistemological values, or that the natural sciences constitute the most authoritative worldview.
Obviously, I do not hold that view, so the title of this topic is already loaded with BS from the beginning. But I was willing to turn a blind eye to compensate for Mike’s weaknesses.
I believe in truth and the pursuit of truth. Truth can be discovered by seeking which is where science fits and it can be revealed which is where revelation fits. When determining truth, we have access to the Spirit of God. But we also have the talents that God gave us such as reason and intelligence. We need to use all at our disposal. If we neglect any of it, then we are not running at 100%.
If you say that the Bible says that the earth is a triangle and then satellites take photos of the earth and it is a cube, then you have a contradiction that needs to be sorted. Mike seems quite happy with the contradiction his worldview creates, but he simply just discards anything that doesn’t agree with his doctrine. This is called wilful blindness. In fact, it could well be that all blindness (not physical blindness) is originally wilful.
Mike: HOW LONG WAS EACH DAY OF CREATION IN THE GENESIS ACCOUNT AFTER THE APPEARANCE OF THE SUN ON DAY FOUR?
Proclaimer: It doesn’t matter if the sun is there or not, a day for God is not like a day for us. Further, the Day of Wrath is not 24 hours and the sun is present. So I cannot tell you exactly how long the day was. Just that it is not like a day to us. I cannot speak on behalf of God and give you a measurement. I can only reveal what is written with regards to the length of days for God.
We will definitely touch on a lot of this stuff you posted as we continue, but for now I need to re-word my question, because you didn’t understand what I was actually asking.
Proclaimer, after the appearance of the sun (and therefore the beginning of the sun-earth cycle), is there any scriptural reason for you to believe that any of the individual days (sunrise to the next sunrise) during the creation period were longer than 24 hours?
I’m not asking how God may or may not experience time. We’ll get to that soon enough. I’m asking if there’s any scriptural reason to believe that any particular timespan from one sunrise to the next sunrise during the creation “epochs” (regardless of how long you believe them to be) lasted more than 24 hours.
Deleted this mess…
I hate making a long post with italics and bolds and colors – only to have it post like this. Any idea WHY it does this sometimes?
Mike: PROCLAIMER, AFTER THE APPEARANCE OF THE SUN (AND THEREFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE SUN-EARTH CYCLE), IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON FOR YOU TO BELIEVE THAT ANY OF THE INDIVIDUAL DAYS (SUNRISE TO THE NEXT SUNRISE) DURING THE CREATION PERIOD WERE LONGER THAN 24 HOURS?
Proclaimer has ignored this question (and many others) for weeks – which is why I finally put him on the Hot Seat. But since it appears that he has no desire to answer the question here either, I will answer this one for him.
There is only one time in scripture where a literal day (based on the sun-earth cycle) deviated from the 24 hour period that we are all familiar with…
Joshua 10:13-14… The sun stopped in the middle of heaven and delayed coming in for a full day. There has never been a day like that – before it or after it. The LORD heeded the voice of a man, for the LORD fought for Israel.
This tells us that ever since there has been such a thing as a “day”, they have always been the same as the days that we experience today – with that one single exception.
So the answer to my question is, “No, Mike. There is absolutely no scriptural reason for me to think that any of the actual sun-earth cycles were any longer than 24 hours during the creation period.”
So now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, I can FINALLY move on to some follow-up points.
Genesis 1:3-5… And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God…separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
In the above we learn that the actual word “day” – and the two main concepts of a “day” (the daylight portion, and the entire daylight/nighttime period that includes one morning and one evening) – were all conceived and created by God on the very first “day” of creation. Then…
Genesis 1:14… Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons, days, and years.
Notice that the sun isn’t the MECHANISM for days.
Ever since God created light, days and nights (and the cycle that contains one of each – also called a “day”) had been happening without the sun. But a continuous daily fade from light to dark and back to light again doesn’t identify or change the seasons, or even designate a year. On the other hand, the sun, the moon, and the stars are what we use to identify sacred times, seasons, festivals, the passing of days (both the 12 and the 24 hour kinds), the passing of months, the passing of years, and even the passing of time periods much longer than years.
And here is an important point that had to wait until that question you kept avoiding was answered… the appearance of the sun didn’t change the timing of the days that were already passing before the appearance of the sun. The sun serves as a definitive marker and divider of days, but it isn’t the source of, nor the reason for, the period of time God named a “day”. It is a later addition that clearly marks the passing of those days.
So, just like there is no scriptural reason to suspect that the sun-earth cycles during the creation period were longer than 24 hours, there is likewise no scriptural reason to suspect that the light-dark cycles before the appearance of the sun were longer than 24 hours either. Because the sun isn’t the CAUSE of those cycles – but a later marker of those cycles that had already been occurring before the appearance of the sun.
Proclaimer, is there any scriptural reason for you to suspect that the daily sun-earth cycles – or the light-dark cycles that preceded the appearance of the sun – were anything other than 24-hour cycles during the creation period? If so, please present that scriptural evidence.
*Reminder: I am still not asking how God may or may not experience the passing of time. I am asking about literal sun-earth days, and the light-dark days that preceded the sun.
PROCLAIMER, IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON FOR YOU TO SUSPECT THAT THE DAILY SUN-EARTH CYCLES – OR THE LIGHT-DARK CYCLES THAT PRECEDED THE APPEARANCE OF THE SUN – WERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN 24-HOUR CYCLES DURING THE CREATION PERIOD? IF SO, PLEASE PRESENT THAT SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE.
What? Lol.
Day and night cycles before the sun?
Mike, I believe that in the beginning that God created the heavens and earth. Then the earth was formless and void and God terraformed the earth. One of things that took place was the sun and moon being visible or placed in the sky or vault.
So your question is irrelevant to me.
I hate making a long post with italics and bolds and colors – only to have it post like this. Any idea WHY it does this sometimes?
Servers often have a time limit for scripts to run. So it could be that the rendering of your post timed out and thus the conversion of code wasn’t completed. Most of the time you can edit your post, then copy all the text which has the code, then paste it back in TEXT mode. Text mode is code mode so it will hopefully work the second time. That is what I do when it happens to me. It has happened a few times to me over the years. I literally mean a few times.
So my question Mike is why doesn’t water at the bottom of the ocean get sucked into less dense water nearer the surface?
What? Lol.
Day and night cycles before the sun?
Yes anything possible with the imagination of primitive man with his limited knowledge. Unfortunately we postmodern men are debating on those ancient texts to suit our present day’s knowledge.
Mike’s beliefs may be primitive gadam, even stone age, but I think it is equally true that a biased mind also leads to wrong conclusions. Biased minds shut out possibilities and that often includes the truth. Bias means you follow something blindly and condemn opposing views, no matter the merit. Being bias is a bit like being primitive. It leads you away from the truth. Truth, like science is never threatened when tested because both seek the truth of a matter. So investigation is good. Truth seekers are always open minded and they listen to opposing views until they debunk those views. Whereas, you blindly reject views with no investigation. You make sweeping statements that condemn, but give no proof of why you came to that conclusion.
Truth seekers are always open minded and they listen to opposing views until they debunk those views. Whereas, you blindly reject views with no investigation. You make sweeping statements that condemn, but give no proof of why you came to that conclusion.
Hi Proclaimer, in fact it’s the other way round the logic. I am on neutral ground and without any bias on the ancient texts than most of the religious people. And I make statements based on certain evidences from the historical documents than the biased religious conceptions.
Mike: PROCLAIMER, IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON FOR YOU TO SUSPECT THAT THE DAILY SUN-EARTH CYCLES – OR THE LIGHT-DARK CYCLES THAT PRECEDED THE APPEARANCE OF THE SUN – WERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN 24-HOUR CYCLES DURING THE CREATION PERIOD? IF SO, PLEASE PRESENT THAT SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE.
Proclaimer: What? Lol. Day and night cycles before the sun?
Yes Proclaimer, according to the Bible, there were day-night cycles before the sun.
Genesis 1:3-5… And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”
And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Proclaimer, are you able to see from the scriptural words above that, before the appearance of the sun, God created light and separated it from the darkness?
Are you able to see that he called the light “day”, and the darkness “night”?
And are you able to see that He called the very first day-night cycle, which included a single morning and a single evening, the first “day”?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
