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T8: …the famous and perplexing Double Slit Experiment in physics even alludes to observation being of primary importance before anything becomes even physical.
Mike: Are they suggesting that a flower doesn’t actually exist unless someone happens to be looking at it?
The way you perceive it only. Obviously it exists, but the experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching are actual processed in the brain. The organs for each sense merely receives the waves or signals.
Similarly, this webpage exists, but not like this. It is in actual fact bits and bytes flying through fibre and wirelessly in the air to reach your computer and browser. Think of the browser as your brain. It interprets/renders these data bits into this web page or reality.
Here’s another one, Gene…
Not necessarily so Mike.
This can happen when you select the object (earth) using the box selection and then brightening that selection or increasing saturation. Yes the dark area will brighten up, but you can fill the original dark color back in with the Paint Bucket without affecting the Earth.
Mike, when are you going to shake your head, and come out of this stupidy you have fallen into?
Like beatlejuice, when his head was spinning and he grabbed it with both hands to stop it and said, “don’t you hate it when that happens”, this is all “coo,coo cookie tue Mike, ☺ lol.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Hi Gene,
Yes his ideas are nonsense.
But he does not deny and mock the teachings of Jesus Christ.
But you do.
But that’s up to you. I’m not watching any more of your videos anyway, because I tried to have a point-by-point discussion of the very first one you and Anthony presented on this thread, and you two couldn’t even stick around long enough to finish the discussion on the very first globe “proof” in that very first video.
Let me get this straight. I cannot answer all the questions demonstrated by videos but when I find a video that debunks a point or points, then you will not watch the video. No wonder you believe the earth is flat then. Wilful ignorance is bliss.
I will put the relevant points into my own words. It will actually help me to understand the answers better too.
Mike,
Here are my thoughts about the lunar eclipse as it eclipses from the top down or from the bottom up. It has to do with what hemisphere you are on. In other words, to those on the Northern hemisphere, if the moon is going from 5 degrees north of the ecliptic plane to 5 degrees south of the ecliptic plane in it’s orbit, it will eclipse from the bottom up and if it is going from 5 degrees south of the ecliptic plane to 5 degrees north of the ecliptic plane it will eclipse from the top down. The darkest part of the moon during a lunar eclipse is the shadow of the umbra, the lighter part of the moon during a lunar eclipse is the shadow of the penumbra not direct sunlight.
Something to think about. The penumbra isn’t just on the left and right side of the umbra but it is also on the top and bottom of the umbra. The penumbra is the “shadow” of the earth that is closest to the sun’s direct rays and so will not be as dark of a shadow. I don’t know about the refraction of the light rays as they pass through the atmosphere but that probably has something to do with making it look brighter.
That, so far, is my best guess. I’m no astrophysicist though.
I hope that helps!
Now that I have spent soooooo much time on your thread, would you be so kind as to answer the “2 Commandment…” topic that I started if you haven’t done so already, please?
Thanks, I know you will 😉
Nick….show ne where i “mock” any teachings, of Jesus, what i mock is you misunderstandings of what he was saying. THINGS like there real exists a beelzeebub, (the lord of the flies of the pagans) and not uderstanding Jesus said “IF” I cast out”, he didn’t say he did that as you believe. You seem to take everything literal, as if Jesus said he did, when he actually said “IF”, WE ALL KNOW Jesus cast them out by the power of God, which had nothing to do with those JEWISH, FABLES, THOSE YOU BELIEVE ARE REAL. LIKE STILL ALIVE AFTER YOU DIE AND ECT. No Nick “some” of the thing you say, counterdict Jesus and other scriptures also. IMO
JODI, CLEARLY EXPLAIND THIS TO YOU, BUT YOU STILL CAN’T SEEM TO PUT IT TOGETHER.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
T8: All your doing is trying to prove the Bible is wrong whether you realise it or not.
If big bang, deep time, heliocentric cosmology is right, the Bible is wrong. If stellar, chemical and biological evolution is right, the Bible is wrong.
What I’m trying to prove is that we can trust the authority of God’s written word over the imaginative stories told by godless men.
T8. “Do you take into consideration the outside air rushing past your 100 km/h speeding enclosed car as you throw a ball in the air and catch it. How come you never see people calculating anything to work out where the ball will be after 1 second or so at that speed. No, you just throw the ball as if you were standing still on Earth because both the moving car and moving earth have atmosphere that move with them.”
The ball simply falls back to the same spot because in relation to the car you are not moving. The same would happen in your living room.
Let’s do another mental experiment. Let’s say that you are in a vacuum enviornment and traveling at 60 or 70 mph on a motorcycle. If you thru the ball up would it fall back into your hand?
Maybe if you didn’t throw it too high. At that point the ball still has the same forward momentum as you do. However, if you threw it very high it would loose forward momentum and fall behind even without any atmosphere. Your motorcycle would keep up the speed because it is using force against the surface where the ball ceases to have any new forward momentum.
Now let’s apply that to an airplane on earth. What happens when the airplane goes against the rotation of the earth? Well, the atmosphere is traveling at 1,000 mph+ at the equator and even faster at higher elevations because of the added circumference. So what happens? Does the airplane need to travel at more than 1,000 mph to simply make any headway? Remember that the atmosphere follows the rotation of the earth if I’m understanding you correctly.
Just curious what your answer would be. Does the airplane need to travel 1,000+ mph?
Dig: The ball simply falls back to the same spot because in relation to the car you are not moving…
Boom! And the atmosphere is moving with the Earth, so in relation to the earth’s surface the atmosphere is not moving.
So the airplane flying through the atmosphere is in relation to the earth surface and atmosphere which are all close to still in relation. So if the plane goes 500 km/h for one hour in an easterly direction, then it will cover around 500 km and will do so in a westerly direction too.
Think of a tennis ball in a bucket of water. If you spin the ball, the water around it will also spin. Test it by placing a ping pong ball in the water and it will go into orbit around the tennis ball. Think of the water as the atmosphere. Not hard to do since the atmosphere is made up of a number of things including water vapor.
So a plane is like the ping pong ball going around the tennis ball. So if it propels itself eastward or westward, it will cover around the same distance because everything is in relation to earth.
Mike: Here – invest 40 seconds of research…
https://youtu.be/ql_TTguKxnE
Was looking through posts I have missed and thought I would reply to this post directly.The video in your post Mike is debunked. The boat in the video is on the near side of the horizon and is small, so disappears due to its size, not the curvature of the Earth. But ocean liners and ocean tankers going over the horizon disappear from the bottom up as you would expect if the earth was globe shaped.
This immediately raised the question about antiquity and the observed sails appearing before seeing the whole boat. Wouldn’t they too be too small to see like the above video? Then I realised that boats were actually pretty big back then because they had very high sails.
Mike: If big bang, deep time, heliocentric cosmology is right, the Bible is wrong.
Boom! That is the deception. Get as many Christians believing this and then the world can say with confidence, that the Bible has been proven wrong. Sad part would be that the Bible isn’t saying what you are saying Mike. The Bible is way to brief on the subject and the Bible talks to us through the way we perceive reality and gives us a bigger picture from there. The detail you give is too much to draw from the Bible. Further, the Bible says the sun sets or goes down and your Flat Earth Biblical model doesn’t have the sun go under the disk. So nothing fits the Bible if you take it the literal way you do. Just understand that the Bible uses concepts, idioms, etc to describe things sometimes. It also says that all that is visible came from that which is invisible. Yes, the Universe that we see now was once invisible, but knoweldge increased Mike, just as the Bible said it would.
Mike: If stellar, chemical and biological evolution is right, the Bible is wrong.
This one I generally agree with. However, Evolution is a collective term and parts of Evolution are actually true. But I agree that its main premise is false. An earlier theory introduced ‘Survival of the fittest’ and the guy who came up with this was a Christian and he believed that the best traits of species had a better chance to be pass on due to the success and longer life these traits would bring a species. This ensured the species would stay intact or it would preserve the species rather than it dying out or change into something less or something else as Darwin later expressed. He borrowed/stole this idea and used it to draw an opposite conclusion. Of course, there has never been proof of Evolution being the mechanism in which species arose or the mechanism as to how the universe arose. It is mostly a fanciful idea for people who do not like the idea that there is a God.
Mike, millions of souls have rejected the Bible as a book of authority on truth because men have misrepresented it. How would you feel if you went to Judgement and had to tell God why you taught that Hell was eternal and you had to give an account as to the souls that were lost because they just thought the Bible had to be wrong on that subject. Turns out it is not even taught in the Bible, so completely unnecessary right? Yet here you are doing the same thing. Turning people off the Bible by convincing them that the Bible is out of touch with modern observation of the universe and earth. Pity you have to be so polarising by forcing people to believe in a Flat Earth or the Bible is wrong. Sad. And you have involved your own son in this experiment of yours. I can’t see this ending well honestly. Someone has to tell you Mike. Unseen consequences can come from things like this.
I will tell you something else too. People I grew up with that are involved in Conspiracy Theories like the Jews run the world, Ancient Aliens, Chemtrails, 1080, water fluoridation to dumb down the masses, etc, they all smoke pot regularly. Just saying.
T8: “Boom! And the atmosphere is moving with the Earth, so in relation to the earth’s surface the atmosphere is not moving.”
No boom. In the case of my example with the motorcycle, its force was against the road and with the airplane its force is against the atmosphere.
Now if the road was moving at 60 mph in one direction and I was traveling in the opposite direction, how fast would I have to be going to make any headway? Think of a conveyer belt or an escalator. I would have to be traveling over 60 mph!
With an airplane its force is against the atmosphere, which you believe is moving at 1,000+ mph near the equator. So if it is going against that force how can it make any headway only traveling at 500 mph? The answer is it cannot, it would need to go faster than 1,000 to make any headway.
T8: “The video in your post Mike is debunked. The boat in the video is on the near side of the horizon and is small, so disappears due to its size, not the curvature of the Earth. But ocean liners and ocean tankers going over the horizon disappear from the bottom up as you would expect if the earth was globe shaped.”
No, it is not debunked. But the boats and ships going over the curve IS debunked in this video.
It deals with two considerations; one in from 1-10 min and the second is from 10-16. Both debunk the curve.
What you are observing in your video is the magnification of objects and a mirage effect due to atmospheric interference, and an accumulative effect of waves that hide lower portions of any ship at a distance.
If you want to claim perspective, which you should, you also need to apply it fairly especially when it is a proven and scientifically established effect of why the lower portions of ships can in some instances be hidden by the above factors. Ignoring those factors and just claiming curvature would not be fair in my opinion.
T8: “Further, the Bible says the sun sets or goes down and your Flat Earth Biblical model doesn’t have the sun go under the disk.”
I recall Mike asking for a biblical verse that stated that the sun “sets” in the original language. Have you done that? I have been following pretty closely and I don’t recall you providing any such verse. I did see a list of verses you provided that says that in English however, in the original language I recall the meaning to be from a direction, i.e., west, rather than set.
If you did please reference the verse or verses again because I would like to see them as well. Thanks.
t8,
In your post you quoted Mike and responded:
Mike: If big bang, deep time, heliocentric cosmology is right, the Bible is wrong.
Boom! That is the deception. Get as many Christians believing this and then the world can say with confidence, that the Bible has been proven wrong. Sad part would be that the Bible isn’t saying what you are saying Mike. The Bible is way to brief on the subject and the Bible talks to us through the way we perceive reality and gives us a bigger picture from there. The detail you give is too much to draw from the Bible. Further, the Bible says the sun sets or goes down and your Flat Earth Biblical model doesn’t have the sun go under the disk. So nothing fits the Bible if you take it the literal way you do. Just understand that the Bible uses concepts, idioms, etc to describe things sometimes. It also says that all that is visible came from that which is invisible. Yes, the Universe that we see now was once invisible, but knoweldge increased Mike, just as the Bible said it would.
I do agree with your conclusion of Mike’s statement as far as the heliocentric cosmology goes and “big bang” in my opinion was more likely the begetting of the Son before creation, and deep time I hold out as a possibility but favor the instant mature earth stance. I appreciate that Mike wants to defend the Word of God, I think that he is pointing the finger the wrong way though. He has made the ally into an enemy. I do believe that satan is behind that deception and is laughing all the way.
I was wondering if I can persuade you to respond to the OP in the “2 Commandment…” topic. I would really appreciate for you to chime in on that with a direct answer.
Thanks ahead! LU
It’s a sonic boom. Dig.
A moving car’s contained atmosphere is relative to all enclosed in the car. All moving at the same speed. It perfectly explains the earth and atmosphere and what is contained.
You only notice the speed in a moving car when the speed changes. If you are cruising at the same speed, then everything inside is still and everything outside is what is moving from that perspective. Guess what, the earth moves with the same speed. It doesn’t slow down for corners or speed up on a straight. Likewise the stars appear to be what’s moving and everything on earth and in its atmosphere is still. I even remember as a kid in the back seat of the family car watching the moon following the car. Perception Dig.
So easy to understand, that objection to this is denying basic reality. You can kick and scream all you like, but a person interested in the truth will easily see through a smokescreen that is deigned to hide the simple truth.
The deluded attempt to deny basic realities like 1+1=2. There is a God. The universe came from an infinite something. Common sense is often enough to see the delusion and this is true in this example. The earth and atmosphere are in synch and consequently, everything looks still and the stars appear to circuit from our seemingly still observation point.
Mike: Did the ancient Hebrews consider the earth to be stationary, and fixed on pillars? YES or NO?
Kathi: I don’t know.
Hmm… Well, do the scriptures say the earth is stationary and fixed on pillars? YES or NO?
Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
1 Samuel 2:8 …for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’S, and he hath set the world upon them.
Mike: Did the ancient Hebrews consider the sun and the moon to be two different lights in the firmament? YES or NO?
Kathi: I don’t know.
Well, do the scriptures say the sun and moon are two different lights? YES or NO?
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Mike: Did the ancient Hebrews consider the firmament to be a solid structure that enclosed the earth as a dome, with birds flying under it, the sun, moon and stars in it, and God’s throne resting on top of it? YES or NO?
Kathi: No.
Well, do the scriptures say about it?
Job 37:18 ESV Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?
Genesis 7:11 …on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Exodus 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Job 22:14 Thick clouds veil him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.
Jeremiah 51:16 When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens…
Amos 9:6 Who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth…
Psalm 19:4-6 …he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Its going forth is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit is to their ends…
Ezekiel 10:1 Then I looked, and behold, on the firmament that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in appearance like a throne.
Isaiah 66:1 Thus says the LORD: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool…”
Job 37:3 He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth.
Genesis 1:17 God placed the lights in the firmament of the heaven to shine on the earth…
There are many more, but these should suffice.
Mike: According to Gen 1:20, the birds fly in front of the raqia (in the air), not in the raqia;
Can you refute that using the scriptures or a preponderance of scholarly sources?
Kathi: I have refuted this already by showing you that the birds fly in the heaven which is raqia according to Gen 1:8.
Firstly, will you admit that the Hebrew of Gen 1:20 doesn’t say birds fly “IN” the firmament, but “IN THE FACE OF” the firmament? Will you admit that “in the face of” has the meaning of “against the part that is facing the subject”? Will you admit that it is translated most often as “before” and “in front of” – among these other ones I’ve emboldened below from NET Bible?
Pronunciation: paw-neem’ paw-neh’ Origin: from 06437 Reference: TWOT – 1782a PrtSpch: noun masculine In Hebrew: ynpl 668, ynp 351, ynpm 190, wynpl 115, Kynpl 107, wynp 94, Kynp 73, Mynp 60, Mhynpl 56, ynplm 50, ynplw 34, Mhynp 32, Mkynpl 29, Kynpm 29, Mhynpm 27, wynpm 23, Mynpl 22, Mkynpm 19, ynpw 19, wnynpl 13, Kynplm 10, hynp 10, Mynph 10, Mhynpw 9, ynpmw 8, wynplm 8, Mkynp 8, wynpb 5, wnynpm 5, Mkynpb 4, wynpw 3, hynpl 3, Mkynplm 3, wynplw 2, hynpm 2, Mhynpb 2, Kynpb 2, Mhynplw 2, Kynplw 2, ynpb 2, Mynpm 1, wnnplm 1, Kynpmw 1, Kynpw 1, ynplmw 1, Mynplmw 1, Mynpb 1, Mynplm 1, wmynp 1, wnynp 1, ynpmk 1, hynpw 1, wynph 1, *ypw {ynpw} 1, Mhynpmw 1, hynpb 1, Mynpw 1 In NET: before 703, face 171, presence 98, front 75, ahead 42, faces 39, because 38, from 36, surface 27, in front of 17, by 15, near 14, sight 13, toward 12, against 10, of 10, favor 9, facing 9, Presence 6, to 6, partiality 6, serve 6, preceded 5, over 5, faced 5, for 5, ground 5, with 5, open 4, me 4, served 4, corresponding 4, at 4, on 3, opposite 3, used to be 3, in front 3, because of 3, due to 3, Before 3, emanates 2, Because 2, edge 2, deserve 2, direction 2, countenance 2, meet 2, entrance 2, east 2, on the front 2, leads 2, rejected 2, facedown 2, led 2, looks 2, advisers 2, predecessors 2, appear 2, pleases 2, appearance 2, refuse 2, felt obligated 1, field 1, from him 1, from me 1, escape 1, fierce 1, expression 1, esteemed 1, earlier 1, better 1, again 1, across 1, along 1, alongside 1, as long as 1, approach 1, account 1, In front of 1, At 1, As a result 1, Extending from 1, Gehazi 1, Hebron 1, assistant 1, at the front 1, characterize your rule 1, both sides 1, come across 1, coming 1, determined 1, constantly 1, front of 1, beside 1, attention 1, attacked 1, attitude 1, awaited 1, became a servant 1, does 1, interceded 1, respected 1, resolved 1, regular basis 1, right in front of 1, right up to 1, serving 1, servant 1, region 1, prior to 1, place 1, personally 1, pay no attention 1, possession 1, pouted 1, prior 1, previously 1, shame 1, show 1, turn my back on 1, top 1, to them 1, under 1, visit 1, withstand 1, watch 1, to the power of 1, to me 1, sought 1, situation 1, spoken 1, take care 1, through 1, task judgment 1, overwhelmed 1, overseas 1, you 1, intention 1, inside 1, into 1, keep 1, lead 1, land 1, in the sight of 1, in advance of 1, hide 1, help 1, head 1, him 1, honored 1, in 1, humiliated 1, left me no choice 1, lifestyle 1, next 1, myself 1, my attention 1, next to 1, of him 1, outer 1, out 1, mouth 1, more than 1, look 1, like 1, look with displeasure 1, looked 1, met 1, makes 1, guiding 1 In AV: before 1137, face 390, presence 76, because 67, sight 40, countenance 30, from 27, person 21, upon 20, of 20, …me 18, against 17, …him 16, open 13, for 13, toward 9, misc 195 Count: 2109 Definition: 1) face
1a) face, faces
1b) presence, person
1c) face (of seraphim or cherubim)
1d) face (of animals)
1e) face, surface (of ground)1f) as adv of loc/temp
1f1) before and behind, toward, in front of, forward, formerly,
from beforetime, before
1g) with prep1g1) in front of, before, to the front of, in the presence of,
in the face of, at the face or front of, from the presence of,
from before, from before the face ofSecondly, do you think that birds also fly around God’s throne, since it too is in “the heavens”? Or will you admit that there are three heavens, according to scripture, with the understanding that the birds fly in the first, the sun, moon, and stars are in the second, and God’s throne is in the third?
https://owlcation.com/humanities/Three-Heavens-According-to-the-Bible
Notice that the author considers the second heaven “outer space where stars and planets are”. So he is a heliocentrist, but still recognizes that the birds fly in the first, sun, moon and stars are in the second, and God resides in the third.
See also…
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_151.cfm
https://www.psalm11918.org/Articles/Did-You-Know/Scripture-Describes-Three-Heavens.html
So Kathi, you have not “refuted” anything at all. What you’ve done is found yourself backed into a corner after first bringing up Gen 1:20, and are now trying your best to – as the BioLogos source I’ve quoted words it – “gain traction by swimming against the strong current of what we know of the ancient world”.
I find this to be disingenuous, especially in light of these words that you yourself wrote in another post…
I can understand how the ancient people would perceive that there must be something solid to hold up the water above the expanse and that the earth was flat. That was then, this is now after much evidence to the contrary.
So you basically acknowledged that the ancient people believed in a solid firmament supporting waters, and a flat earth. And this acknowledgement finds agreement from virtually every Biblical scholar from the early church fathers until today. In fact, Martin Luther said…
“There is talk of a new astrologer [Nicolaus Copernicus] who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must . . . invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth.
This was indeed the understanding of all ancient cultures during the time the OT was written. It was the understanding of those who wrote the scriptures. Your statement above has explained your position well. You clearly know that the ancient Bible writers understood a flat earth that was affixed on pillars and stationary, with a sun, moon, and stars moving around it overhead in a solid firmament that supported waters and God’s throne above it. So while you can claim that there is now “much evidence to the contrary”, thus proving the Bible writers wrong or misguided, you cannot honestly try to force the Bible into teaching something it clearly doesn’t, like birds flying among the billions of stars and planets of the vast vacuum universe in which you currently believe.
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