Firstborn of/over all creation

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,14:34)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 25 2011,03:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2011,15:01) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 23 2011,09:41) I had asked WJ once if and they do believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, then He must be the Father of Jesus. Wonderful point, Irene!   WJ answered Irene's point a zillion times befoe Mike even came here. So Irene should have said, “I asked but I did not like the answer.” Really, Oh WJ told me many times about the Holy Spirit, but I don't think I ever brought up the point about Jesus Being Gods Son, and therefore He existed after Almighty God and not always existed like you guys believe.  And that my friend is so.  All of Sons come after their Fathers.  That you cannot argue about….That is a fact…. Peace to you my friend Irene

BTW Irene.

Was Jesus “born” or “created”?

WJ

[Baker]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 25 2011,06:41)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,14:34) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 25 2011,03:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2011,15:01) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 23 2011,09:41) I had asked WJ once if and they do believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, then He must be the Father of Jesus. Wonderful point, Irene!   WJ answered Irene's point a zillion times befoe Mike even came here. So Irene should have said, “I asked but I did not like the answer.” Really, Oh WJ told me many times about the Holy Spirit, but I don't think I ever brought up the point about Jesus Being Gods Son, and therefore He existed after Almighty God and not always existed like you guys believe.  And that my friend is so.  All of Sons come after their Fathers.  That you cannot argue about….That is a fact…. Peace to you my friend Irene BTW Irene. Was Jesus “born” or “created”? WJ

WJ

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist…

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

peace and Love Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Okay.

Do those scriptures to you mean he was born or created?

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,14:24)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2011,15:24) Irene, I wasn't upset with you, I just wanted this topic to reflect the thoughts of the ante-Nicene church fathers.  I wanted to keep it separate from the members opinions.  See? Sorry if you felt bad about it, Kathi Hi Kathie!  No, I really did not feel all that bad about it, and I know what you wanted, and I respect that now.  I hope with the Ancient History about the trinity I was on subject.  Good to hear from you.  I also like to ask you why you never post on any other treads?  You do believe that Jesus preexisted His birth on Earth, don't you? Also the tread that Paladin started the “Examination of the incarnation doctrine.  hopefully see you there…. Peace and love Irene

Hi Irene,
I have been gone for over two months and now, I want to keep my time on here much shorter than I used to…HN used to take too much of my time and I was frustrated too much.  My family doesn't need me to be frustrated about HN, if that happens, HN needs to go away for a while, ya know?

I have been posting on the freak greek topic and I started a new poll regarding when the Father beget the Son…go check it out and cast your vote

And yes, I believe in the pre-existence of Christ.
Bless you,
Kathi

[Baker]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 25 2011,08:07)

Okay. Do those scriptures to you mean he was born or created? WJ

WJ The scriptures I gave say that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. But He also was born as a Human by Maria, you know right? So why even ask a question like that???…
Peace and love Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2011,09:07)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,14:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2011,15:24) Irene, I wasn't upset with you, I just wanted this topic to reflect the thoughts of the ante-Nicene church fathers.  I wanted to keep it separate from the members opinions.  See? Sorry if you felt bad about it, Kathi Hi Kathie!  No, I really did not feel all that bad about it, and I know what you wanted, and I respect that now.  I hope with the Ancient History about the trinity I was on subject.  Good to hear from you.  I also like to ask you why you never post on any other treads?  You do believe that Jesus preexisted His birth on Earth, don't you? Also the tread that Paladin started the “Examination of the incarnation doctrine.  hopefully see you there…. Peace and love Irene Hi Irene, I have been gone for over two months and now, I want to keep my time on here much shorter than I used to…HN used to take too much of my time and I was frustrated too much.  My family doesn't need me to be frustrated about HN, if that happens, HN needs to go away for a while, ya know? I have been posting on the freak greek topic and I started a new poll regarding when the Father beget the Son…go check it out and cast your vote And yes, I believe in the pre-existence of Christ. Bless you, Kathi

Yes, I know HN does take time, but I don't get frustrated any longer. Just upset at times, when a certain members call's me Anti-Christ….because I believe that Jesus preexisted…..
Good to have you back….
Peace and Love Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2011,09:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2011,23:01) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 23 2011,09:41) I had asked WJ once if and they do believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, then He must be the Father of Jesus. Wonderful point, Irene!   Hey Mike Since you and Irene believe that the Holy Spirit is a “power” or a “force” and not a person then that must mean that to you guys Jesus Father is an “it”! Did an “It” concieve Jesus?   WJ

Keith,

God the Father caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus BY MEANS OF His Holy Spirit. That is why God the FATHER was the Father of the human Jesus, and not the Holy Spirit.

Unless you know of a scripture where Jesus called the Holy Spirit his Father? Do you? And if the Holy Spirit really was the member of the “Godhead” who caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus, then it would have been THAT member of the “Godhead” who Jesus referred to as “Father”, and not “THE Father”.

It's really quite simple if you let the scriptures teach you.

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2011,20:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2011,09:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2011,23:01) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 23 2011,09:41) I had asked WJ once if and they do believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, then He must be the Father of Jesus. Wonderful point, Irene!   Hey Mike Since you and Irene believe that the Holy Spirit is a “power” or a “force” and not a person then that must mean that to you guys Jesus Father is an “it”! Did an “It” concieve Jesus?   WJ Keith, God the Father caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus BY MEANS OF His Holy Spirit.  That is why God the FATHER was the Father of the human Jesus, and not the Holy Spirit. Unless you know of a scripture where Jesus called the Holy Spirit his Father?  Do you?  And if the Holy Spirit really was the member of the “Godhead” who caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus, then it would have been THAT member of the “Godhead” who Jesus referred to as “Father”, and not “THE Father”. It's really quite simple if you let the scriptures teach you. mike

Mike

if God can create a full women with a rib ,what would stop him to create a human with a sperm,

beat me how some people think.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,10:56)

What did the ante-nicene church fathers say about the Son as the firstborn of/over all creation?  Do they indicate that the Son was the first to come forth from God and then through Him all things came into being?  Or did they indicate something else by calling him the firstborn of/over all creation (Col 1)? Put ante-nicene church fathers quotes on here and let's see if there was a common understanding.  Let this thread just be quotes from the church fathers with online sources sited.   Let's just look at their words.

I believe in a different gospel than either the nicene or anti-nicene fathers.  I do not believe that those who share my doctrine were even invited to the council where that disagreement stems from.

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2011,16:02)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,10:56) What did the ante-nicene church fathers say about the Son as the firstborn of/over all creation?  Do they indicate that the Son was the first to come forth from God and then through Him all things came into being?  Or did they indicate something else by calling him the firstborn of/over all creation (Col 1)? Put ante-nicene church fathers quotes on here and let's see if there was a common understanding.  Let this thread just be quotes from the church fathers with online sources sited.   Let's just look at their words. I believe in a different gospel than either the nicene or anti-nicene fathers.  I do not believe that those who share my doctrine were even invited to the council where that disagreement stems from.

Kerwin, would you please explain what you mean by that? What other Gospel is there? The Fore Fathers either believed in the trinity or not. And what do YOU consider the Gospel?
Peace and Love Irene

[kerwin]

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 25 2011,12:22)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2011,16:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,10:56) What did the ante-nicene church fathers say about the Son as the firstborn of/over all creation?  Do they indicate that the Son was the first to come forth from God and then through Him all things came into being?  Or did they indicate something else by calling him the firstborn of/over all creation (Col 1)? Put ante-nicene church fathers quotes on here and let's see if there was a common understanding.  Let this thread just be quotes from the church fathers with online sources sited.   Let's just look at their words. I believe in a different gospel than either the nicene or anti-nicene fathers.  I do not believe that those who share my doctrine were even invited to the council where that disagreement stems from. Kerwin, would you please explain what you mean by that? What other Gospel is there?  The Fore Fathers either believed in the trinity or not. And what do YOU consider the Gospel? Peace and Love Irene

I was referring to the council of Nicea.  Those in the council who disagreed with the conclusion of the whole are called anti-Nicene fathers.   There were many who did not attend or were not even invited to that council.  They are not called either nicene or anti-nicene fathers.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2011,21:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2011,09:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2011,23:01) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 23 2011,09:41) I had asked WJ once if and they do believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, then He must be the Father of Jesus. Wonderful point, Irene!   Hey Mike Since you and Irene believe that the Holy Spirit is a “power” or a “force” and not a person then that must mean that to you guys Jesus Father is an “it”! Did an “It” concieve Jesus?   WJ Keith, God the Father caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus BY MEANS OF His Holy Spirit.  That is why God the FATHER was the Father of the human Jesus, and not the Holy Spirit. Unless you know of a scripture where Jesus called the Holy Spirit his Father?  Do you?  And if the Holy Spirit really was the member of the “Godhead” who caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus, then it would have been THAT member of the “Godhead” who Jesus referred to as “Father”, and not “THE Father”. It's really quite simple if you let the scriptures teach you. mike

Mike

The point is Jesus conception in Mary is not what makes him “The Son of God” is it?

So the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit took part in the conception.

So yours and Irenes little attack at the Trinitarians is simply shadows and dust because it works against you.  

WJ

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Mike said:

Quote

God the Father caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus BY MEANS OF His Holy Spirit.  That is why God the FATHER was the Father of the human Jesus, and not the Holy Spirit.

Okay let's get this straight. David was APPOINTED as God's firstborn Son in his time. Then Solomon David's immediate son was APPOINTED as God's Firstborn Son in succession. Then the method abruptly changes without any word in scripture and David's ultimate son the Christ becomes God's Firstborn Son in His time by impregnanting Mary.

First David: Becomes God's Firstborn Son by Divine APPOINTMENT (Ps. 89)

Second David: Becomes God's Firstborn Son by Divine APPOINTMENT (2 Samuel 7)

Last David: Becomes God's Firstborn Son by Divine IMPREGNANTING and not by appointment like His fathers before Him.

[Lightenup]

Hi Jack,
David's natural father was Jesse, Solomon's natural father was David. God wasn't their father by whom they received their nature from. The only way to have a 'firstborn' type of relationship with David or Solomon by God was by appointment, not by nature. The only begotten Son is firstborn by nature before the ages, the firstborn Son of Man is also firstborn by nature when born from Mary. The only begotten Son did not need to be designated as firstborn as others did because He was one by nature and the others weren't.

As I understand it,
Kathi

[kerwin]

To all,

Who was Adam's father?

Who did Adam descend from?

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2011,19:30)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 25 2011,12:22) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2011,16:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,10:56) What did the ante-nicene church fathers say about the Son as the firstborn of/over all creation?  Do they indicate that the Son was the first to come forth from God and then through Him all things came into being?  Or did they indicate something else by calling him the firstborn of/over all creation (Col 1)? Put ante-nicene church fathers quotes on here and let's see if there was a common understanding.  Let this thread just be quotes from the church fathers with online sources sited.   Let's just look at their words. I believe in a different gospel than either the nicene or anti-nicene fathers.  I do not believe that those who share my doctrine were even invited to the council where that disagreement stems from. Kerwin, would you please explain what you mean by that? What other Gospel is there?  The Fore Fathers either believed in the trinity or not. And what do YOU consider the Gospel? Peace and Love Irene I was referring to the council of Nicea.  Those in the council who disagreed with the conclusion of the whole are called anti-Nicene fathers.   There were many who did not attend or were not even invited to that council.  They are not called either nicene or anti-nicene fathers. If I understand it right, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John's Books are the Gospels account….

Kerwin! It is Constantine who called the first council of Nicea Three hundred eighteen Bishop attended to settle deoctrinaql differences.  A lot was changed like worship on Sunday, all Holy days became Pagan Holidays, like Christmas and Easter.  The Calendar, from God's into Roman, which we still have today….
Also the trinity.  It was however Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian who in the third Century first came up with it……BTW The first three Centuries the Christians were persecuted and died by the Millions.  It was the Roman Emperor Constantine who put a stop to it, and permitted the Christians full freedom to practice their religion.  But unfortunately that did not last.  The Universal Roman Church who is The Roman Catholic Church also persecuted those who went against their trinitarian beliefs, and were also killed.  There is so much more…. That are not the Gospels…. The Gospels are Mathew, Mark, Luke and John…..
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 27 2011,03:09)

To all, Who was Adam's father? Who did Adam descend from?

Kerwin,
Adam did not have a natural father, one who he received a common nature from, he was the first man. He only had a Father as his creator whom we all have.

Kathi

PS I hope you are getting stronger

[Lightenup]

Irene,
Were you aware that Justin the Martyr who lived lived between 110-165 AD, that wrote of the Christians not keeping the weekly sabbaths or the feasts? That was a long time before Constantine was born. There are Justin Martyr's writings on the internet. He has a long discourse with a Jew and talks to him about this. It is very interesting to read. Here is an excerpt:

The speaker here is Trypho, who is a Jew that doesn't believe in Jesus. Note that he was upset with the Christians because they were not observing festivals or sabbaths:

Quote

But this is what we are most at a loss about: that you, professing to be pious, and supposing yourselves better than others, are not in any particular separated from them, and do not alter your mode of living from the nations, in that you observe no festivals or sabbaths, and do not have the rite of circumcision; and further, resting your hopes on a man that was crucified, you yet expect to obtain some good thing from God, while you do not obey His commandments.

Have you read this conversation yet? Were you aware that the early Christians in the 100's AD weren't observing the weekly sabbaths and feasts?

Bless you,
Kathi

from: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.x.html

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 24 2011,22:10)

Mike if God can create a full women with a rib ,what would stop him to create a human with a sperm, beat me how some people think.

Yeah Pierre,

To keep Jesus from having a beginning, these guys will go as far as suggesting that we claim the existence a goddess with whom God literally procreated to create Jesus.

It is a diversionary tactic, for they know God could beget a Son for Himself out of a piece of lint if He wanted to. Or out of nothing at all, for that matter.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2011,02:30)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 25 2011,12:22) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2011,16:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,10:56) What did the ante-nicene church fathers say about the Son as the firstborn of/over all creation?  Do they indicate that the Son was the first to come forth from God and then through Him all things came into being?  Or did they indicate something else by calling him the firstborn of/over all creation (Col 1)? Put ante-nicene church fathers quotes on here and let's see if there was a common understanding.  Let this thread just be quotes from the church fathers with online sources sited.   Let's just look at their words. I believe in a different gospel than either the nicene or anti-nicene fathers.  I do not believe that those who share my doctrine were even invited to the council where that disagreement stems from. Kerwin, would you please explain what you mean by that? What other Gospel is there?  The Fore Fathers either believed in the trinity or not. And what do YOU consider the Gospel? Peace and Love Irene I was referring to the council of Nicea.  Those in the council who disagreed with the conclusion of the whole are called anti-Nicene fathers.   There were many who did not attend or were not even invited to that council.  They are not called either nicene or anti-nicene fathers.

Hi Kerwin,

I can get on board with you on this one, to an extent. I don't agree with Arius, who thought Jesus was not divine at all, but I don't agree with Athanasius either, who thought Jesus was God Himself.

mike

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