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Mike, it is really good to see you back here, and simulating some interesting discussions. I hope you stick around!! Please stick around.
I am much better thanks. I have found a lot of peace. I had surgery over a year ago which helped and was also diagnosed with anxiety, and have dealt with that through a councilor and short course of medication (now off that). I’m also working, after doing a bit of university study. Now I’m at a place where I really want to refocus on God. I don’t have the negative influences I once had so, should be good once I manage to pull myself way from things like Facebook and Words With Friends (online Scrabble!).
Much love
Hi Nick,
You said:
”In order to be born one must exist beforehand”
Yes most people exist for up to nine months before their birth.
What deep spiritual understanding have you come to by making this statement?
Good question. Realizing that the word “firstborn” does not at all mean “first created” helps JW’s to see that they cannot use the verse Col 1:15 to demonstrate that Jesus was created.
Also, I agree that God is ONE and we are not God yet can be one with Him. Jehovah God is God of gods and Lord of lords…the great and mighty God. Paul makes it clear that for us there is one God, the Father and one Lord-Jesus the Christ. Together they are our one Jehovah God.
Hi LU,
Jesus is a man who was conceived in Mary.
Conceived in the old creation he began the new
But he was born of woman and born under the law.
He called himself a son of man.
Reborn from above he was made the Christ.
After his anointing at the Jordan he became the man from heaven.
Hi Nick,
Jehovah our Righteousness, the Lord of lords did enter into His creation and become a man. It is truly amazing to think about how much He and His Father care for us. You deny this and miss out on so much, Nick. Ask Jehovah to show you if Jesus is Jehovah our Righteousness, the Lord of lords or not. Ask with an open heart and let the Spirit speak.
Hi LU,
2 Cor 5.19
..God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself.
Does this mean God was in God to you?
Phil 2.13
God is at work in you, both to will and to do…
Same situation for us.
Hi Nick,
I understand 2 Cor 5:19 as Jehovah, God of gods (the Father) was reconciling us to Himself through the work of Jehovah, Lord of lords, His Son, who emptied Himself and took on flesh, became man, completed His mission which He was sent to do, fulfilling the prophecies concerning the Messiah so that we could be reconciled to Him.
I believe that the Father has only worked through the Son, never separately from the Son. to accomplish His good purpose.
Thanks for the good questions Nick!
Hi LU,
1 Cor 8.5f
For even if there are SO CALLED gods, whether in heaven or on earth,
as indeed there are many gods and many lords
For us there is ONE GOD, the Father..
and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ…
But for you two gods ?
One could only be a so called god.
Nick you seem to accept that there is one God the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ and you seem to understand them to be two persons, not one. The OT tells us that Jehovah is both God and Lord…that is two persons, one God and one Lord. The one God is not God apart from the one Lord and the one Lord is not Lord apart from the one God. The two persons are never apart, never working separately. They work together as one God in the fullest sense of the title “God.” As opposed to a false idea that they work independently as two Gods. The idea of perfect unity between a perfect Father and a perfect Son is what I understand as Jehovah, the God of gods and the Lord of lords. They must act as one God or they cease to be perfect. I think semantics get in the way because I refer to each person as God. When I think of Jesus as God, it is not independently of the Father but it is together with the Father.
Think of it this way…if you saw a dime on the table you would just see one side of the dime. If you turned it over, the other side would appear on top and look different from the first side. Yet, in each instance, you were looking at a dime…not two dimes but one dime. Together the head and tails of the coin make one dime and together the one head and the one tail invest in the same purpose. You cannot have a dime without the head side or without the tail side. We cannot have Jehovah without the Father or without the Son. They both are prominent and essential to perform the purpose of God.
Hi LU,
I ascend to my Father and your Father
to My God and your God.
Jn 20.17
The Father is the God of Jesus Christ
Hi LU,
Heb 1.1f
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets, in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through also He made the world.
Do you agree that GOD is the Father?
And that God speaks through His holy Son?
When God speaks through Jesus Christ do you hear Him?
Like when God said “before Abraham I AM” and
“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up”Jn 2?
Lu….If God were to speak through you, would that make you a God? God said this, “God is “not” a man, that he should lie, nor a “son of man” that he should repent. Jesus on the other hand said he was a “son of man” over 50 times. Seems you have a problem to explain, also here is another, “UNTO US THERE IS BUT “ONE” GOD, ONE MEDERATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN “THE MAN ” JESUS THE MESSIAH.” And again, said by Jesus “that they might know you the “Only” true God, “and” Jesus whom you have sent.”
What does the word “only” and “true” mean to you LU? As i recall the word “only” means there is no other and “true” means real, and again, “the LORD (adonia) “God almighty” , said to my lord (adoni) a “human” ruler like a judges, governors, human kings, like Jesus is, “sit on my side , until “I” (GOD”, make your enemies your foot stool”.
Lu, this is only a few of the many, many, many, scriptures that proves there is ONLY ONE GOD. IDOLATERS are not accepted by God, God is against them and will not listen to them unless they repent.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
@NickHassan: 1 Cor 8.5f
For even if there are SO CALLED gods, whether in heaven or on earth,
as indeed there are many gods and many lords…
The Greek doesn’t say “so called”, Nick. Notice the second line, “as indeed there ARE many gods AND many lords”. This is a true statement, and is echoed all throughout the Bible. The scriptures are loaded with all kinds of different gods, “both in heaven and on earth”. We’re told the name of some of these gods: Jehovah, Jesus, Beelzebub, Michael, Molech, Ashtoreth, Dagon, Gabriel, etc. The teaching of the entire Bible is not that there is literally only one god… but that there are many gods and many lords, and Jehovah is the MOST HIGH God and Lord OF all the other gods and lords. He is the God OF Jesus, the God OF Lucifer, the God OF Michael, the God OF Dagon, etc. But all those are also gods and lords in their own right.
Kathi: “I don’t have any problem with Jesus being the firstborn and only born god/God.”
That is scriptural.
Kathi: “All those other gods you write about were created through the Son as angels who fell and sought worship from creatures and receive/received worship through deception not by design.”
Yes, that’s right… except that not all of them fell. Many of them like Michael and Gabriel remain faithful to their Creator.
Kathi: “They were not born. Adam was not born, he was created and was the first created man, not the firstborn man.”
Born, begotten, made, brought into existence, created, etc. They all require the existence of someone who at one time didn’t exist. For example, the Father cannot ever be said to have been “born” or “begotten” or “made”, because He alone has always existed. But all other gods – whether you use “born”, “begotten”, “made”, or “created” – were at one time or another, in one way or another, “brought into existence”. This includes the firstborn of God’s creative acts, Jesus. He was “the firstborn of every creature” God created, and is “the beginning of the creation by God”. His “origins are from ancient times”, and he was “brought forth as the first of God’s works” – before the mountains were “born”.
I’m sure you know all the scriptures to which I alluded in quotations. If not, let me know.
Hi Mike,
Surely you do not imply that any of the created things that scripture calls SO CALLED gods compare with the Father?
Hi Nick,
Perhaps you have one definition of the word “person” and I have another. I understand God as a person because He describes Himself as having a mind, will, and emotions, and the ability to create. He also speaks in a first person manner and uses personal pronouns when referring to Himself. Maybe your definition is more specific to humanity. Perhaps try to look at the spirit in which the use of the term “person” is meant instead of criticizing and dismissing it. Some people think the Father is the same person as the Son. That is one reason why the trinity doctrine was written, to demonstrate that the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father.
Furthermore, you asked:
Heb 1.1f
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets, in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through also He made the world.
Do you agree that GOD is the Father?
And that God speaks through His holy Son?
When God speaks through Jesus Christ do you hear Him?
Like when God said “before Abraham I AM” and
“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up”Jn 2?
I do believe that the only true God is the Father, together with the Son and the Holy Spirit. I also believe that the Father is a perfect father and the Son is a perfect son. If the Son did something outside of the Father’s will, the Son would cease to be perfect. For the Son to speak according to the will of the Father shows that He (the Son) is a perfect Son. They are of the same mind and same heart, meaning their unity is perfect and in perfect agreement. This also shows that the Father and Son work together to accomplish their purpose. The Father doesn’t work independently of the Son. The Son is shown everything that the Father is doing and the Son CAN DO EVERYTHING the Father does. Everything the Father has are also the Son’s. The same cannot be said of mere men. Men are only shown in part and completely rely on the creator to carry out what they are shown.
Also, God the Father did not say “before Abraham I AM” that was the Lord of lords. The Son, the Lord of lords was not speaking about the Father but about Himself.
At least you seem to understand that when Jesus spoke those words, He would have been claiming to be Jehovah.
The same goes for the Son saying that He (the Son) will raise Himself up on the third day in Jn 2. Which He did after He spoke to Mary in the garden by the tomb. He told her “I will ascend to my Father.” Certainly the Father isn’t saying that the Father will ascend to Himself. That is when Jesus raised up the “temple” of His body.
Jesus speaks for Himself at times and not just for the Father, and Jesus never speaks in a way that disagrees with truth.
Do I hear these words you quoted correctly? Well, I gave you my understanding and you have a different understanding. The two understandings are not in agreement. You would probably say that I do not hear Jesus but you do. I would say that your understanding of Jesus makes Him out to be a mere prophet of God and not the Lord of lords. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is a prophet of God…NOPE, that’s not going to be the confession. Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, and at that, the Father is glorified.
Good discussion, Nick.
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