Firstborn of/over all creation

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2014,06:54)

Hi Pierre: You say: Quote so Christ was born or created in heaven and not on earth Where is your scripture to support this statement? I said the scriptures that you posted were true. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers–all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together

there you have them

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ June 15 2014,12:23)

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2014,06:54) Hi Pierre: You say: Quote so Christ was born or created in heaven and not on earth Where is your scripture to support this statement? I said the scriptures that you posted were true. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers–all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together there you have them

Hi Pierre:

The scriptures are true. They are in my bible too.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2014,11:05)

Marty, When a PERSON says he came down FROM heaven – isn't it a fair speculation that this person was actually IN heaven before he came down FROM heaven? When that PERSON says people will see him ascend TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE, and then people watch as he ascends TO HEAVEN – isn't it a fair speculation that HEAVEN is the place HE WAS BEFORE?

I'm confused, Marty.

You told me:  

Quote (942767 @ June 14 2014,15:45)

You can't “add to God's Word”, Mike, the scripture does not state that he was some other being in heaven and then became a man to accomplish the Father's will. That is where you are going wrong

……… but then you concluded:

Quote (942767 @ June 14 2014,15:45)

……yes the spirit, the Words that God would speak to humanity through him at this specific point in time were with God in heaven………..

So I'm confused about how you reached the conclusion that THE WORDS GOD SPOKE were what came down from heaven –

not to do their own will –

but to do the will of God who sent them to earth.  How did you conclude this WITHOUT “adding to God's Word” – like you warned me against?  And even more importantly, how does your conclusion align with the CONTEXT of the words that were actually spoken?

Let's see……..

John 6
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.”

Before we move on, do you accept that it was the PERSON Jesus who said the words above?  Or do you conclude that it was “the Words God would speak to humanity” that actually said the words of verses 35 and 36?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 14 2014,15:52)

Hi Mike: Quote Marty, When a PERSON says he came down FROM heaven – isn't it a fair speculation that this person was actually IN heaven before he came down FROM heaven? Speculation is speculation, and not scripture, and so, if he said he was in heaven and going back, then you have to study the scriptures to understand what he is saying by this. Love in Christ, Marty

So when YOU speculate that something less obvious is meant by those words – it's okay?

But when I speculate the most obvious meaning of a man saying he came down from heaven – I am at fault?

We'll get back to this after you address my previous post.

[terraricca]

Quote

But when I speculate the most obvious meaning of a man saying he came down from heaven – I am at fault?

it seems Nick,wakeup, gene,and others do that as well ,

and so answering some question in a lame way

[942767]

Hi Mike:

You say:

Quote

So I'm confused about how you reached the conclusion that THE WORDS GOD SPOKE were what came down from heaven

I reached that conclusion because of the following scripures:

Quote

Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

And so, he said that it was the Father that gives us the true bread from heaven, does he not?

And Hebrews 1 states:

Quote

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And so, were the words spoken through him were spoken to humanity by God.  Did God have the Words that he was going to speak through him from the beginning or did he just decide to speak at this particular time?

Jesus stated:

Quote

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

Quote

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

And going back to John 6 Jesus was speaking relative eating his flesh and drinking his blood, but the disciples did not understand what he was saying.

And so, yes, he it was the person Jesus, the Son of the Living God who stated he came down from heaven to give life unto the world, and then he explains what actually gives life to the world are the words that he was speaking:

Quote

[Jhn 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Of course, the words that were spoken by him, which he indicates were given to him by God who was dwelling within him by His Spirit, had to be spoken through his body, and that was also provided by God, but what he was trying to explain to the disciples was that it was done through him in the body that actually gives life, this is the bread of life that came down from heaven.

Mike, this is how I came to the conclusion which you say has confused you.  I hope that this will clear up any of this confusion.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2014,03:55)

Quote (942767 @ June 14 2014,15:52) Hi Mike: Quote Marty, When a PERSON says he came down FROM heaven – isn't it a fair speculation that this person was actually IN heaven before he came down FROM heaven? Speculation is speculation, and not scripture, and so, if he said he was in heaven and going back, then you have to study the scriptures to understand what he is saying by this. Love in Christ, Marty So when YOU speculate that something less obvious is meant by those words – it's okay? But when I speculate the most obvious meaning of a man saying he came down from heaven – I am at fault?   We'll get back to this after you address my previous post.

No, it is not ok to speculate, and I did not speculate, but I have justified what I have stated by the scriptures which must be line upon line and precept upon precept.

You on the other hand try to reason that he was some other being in heaven and somehow agreed to come down to be born a man and do God's will.

I have not seen any scriptures which state this, but only some that you say may indicate that, and that is speculation.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

You say: Quote So I'm confused about how you reached the conclusion that THE WORDS GOD SPOKE were what came down from heaven I reached that conclusion because of the following scripures: Quote Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. And so, he said that it was the Father that gives us the true bread from heaven, does he not?

in this quote that you put on to show Mike was wrong ,you showed that you stumble again ;look how ;

you quoted John 6;32 this part ;but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

but Mike posted also John 6;33 what says ;For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

but you forgot to say who is that bread that comes down from heaven ;

Jn 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
Jn 6:36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
Jn 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
Jn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

BY THE CONTEXT OF CHRIST WORDS IT SHOWS CLEARLY THAT IT WAS CHRIST THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN A THING YOU DENY ; THIS IS WHY WHAT YOU SAY IS NOT TOTALLY TRUE AND NOT TOTALLY WRONG

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ June 16 2014,10:20)

Marty Quote You say: Quote So I'm confused about how you reached the conclusion that THE WORDS GOD SPOKE were what came down from heaven I reached that conclusion because of the following scripures: Quote Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. And so, he said that it was the Father that gives us the true bread from heaven, does he not? in this quote that you put on to show Mike was wrong ,you showed that you stumble again ;look how ; you quoted  John 6;32 this part ;but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. but Mike posted also John 6;33  what says ;For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. but you forgot to say who is that bread that comes down from heaven ; Jn 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. Jn 6:36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. Jn 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. Jn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. BY THE CONTEXT OF CHRIST WORDS IT SHOWS CLEARLY THAT IT WAS CHRIST THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN A THING YOU DENY ; THIS IS WHY WHAT YOU SAY IS NOT TOTALLY TRUE AND NOT TOTALLY WRONG

Hi Pierre:

I have not denied that Christ came from heaven, but apparently, you can't read, and so, go back and try to read what I have stated, and if you don't understand, ask Mike to explain it to you.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Wakeup]

DO NOT BE FRUSTRATED,BUT KEEP ON ASKING AND
SEEKING.AND IT ALSO WILL BE REVEALED.

WE CAN DISCUS JESUS,THE WORD OF GOD FOREVER.
ONLY JESUS WILL REVEAL IT TO WHOM HE CHOSE.
WE CAN NOT FORCE OUR SELVES TO UNDERSTAND.
FOR IT IS THE GREATEST MYSTERY EVER.
THE WORLD IS NOT GIVEN THIS REVELATION.
ONLY *HE* WHOM THE LORD WILL REVEAL HIM.

IF EVERYONE KNOWS;THAN IT IS NOT A MYSTERY.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ June 16 2014,06:36)

Quote (terraricca @ June 16 2014,10:20) Marty Quote You say: Quote So I'm confused about how you reached the conclusion that THE WORDS GOD SPOKE were what came down from heaven I reached that conclusion because of the following scripures: Quote Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. And so, he said that it was the Father that gives us the true bread from heaven, does he not? in this quote that you put on to show Mike was wrong ,you showed that you stumble again ;look how ; you quoted  John 6;32 this part ;but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. but Mike posted also John 6;33  what says ;For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. but you forgot to say who is that bread that comes down from heaven ; Jn 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. Jn 6:36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. Jn 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. Jn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. BY THE CONTEXT OF CHRIST WORDS IT SHOWS CLEARLY THAT IT WAS CHRIST THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN A THING YOU DENY ; THIS IS WHY WHAT YOU SAY IS NOT TOTALLY TRUE AND NOT TOTALLY WRONG Hi Pierre: I have not denied that Christ came from heaven, but apparently, you can't read, and so, go back and try to read what I have stated, and if you don't understand, ask Mike to explain it to you. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

so you also believe like Mike and me that Jesus the Christ came down from heaven and was born through a women

sorry to have miss understood you

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2014,16:56)

Mike, this is how I came to the conclusion which you say has confused you. I hope that this will clear up any of this confusion.

Not at all, Marty…………

Because the fact still remains that the HUMAN BEING Jesus Christ is the one who said HE was the bread of life that came down from heaven.

Your scenario seems to be that the “spirit words of God” said those words from the man Jesus, and people there were just supposed to understand that it wasn't Jesus himself saying the words – but “the spirit words of God” who said them.

But we'll get back to this point after I see what you answered to my other post.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2014,17:15)

No, it is not ok to speculate, and I did not speculate, but I have justified what I have stated by the scriptures which must be line upon line and precept upon precept.

So then you have SPECULATED that those other scriptures somehow prove it wasn't Jesus who said the words of John 6 – but “the spirit words of God” who said the words of John 6.

And in your mind, those other scriptures support your SPECULATION on this matter.

Marty, any time any of us read a verse, passage, chapter, or even the entire Bible, and try to come to an understanding of what those words mean – we are SPECULATING.

For example, I SPECULATE that Moses was talking about ANGELS mating with human women in Gen 6:4. I have other support for that speculation, but it is speculation just the same.

Kerwin, on the other hand, SPECULATES that Gen 6:4 refers to sons of Seth mating with daughters of Cain.

Of those two choices, which one do YOU speculate is correct?

[mikeboll64]

Marty, this is what I referred to earlier:

John 6
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.”

Who do you think said the words of verses 35-36?

A. The living, breathing BEING known as Jesus Christ?

B. The “spirit words of God”?

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ June 16 2014,10:28)

DO NOT BE FRUSTRATED,BUT KEEP ON ASKING AND SEEKING.AND IT ALSO WILL BE REVEALED. WE CAN DISCUS JESUS,THE WORD OF GOD FOREVER. ONLY JESUS WILL REVEAL IT TO WHOM HE CHOSE. WE CAN NOT FORCE OUR SELVES TO UNDERSTAND. FOR IT IS THE GREATEST MYSTERY EVER. THE WORLD IS NOT GIVEN THIS REVELATION. ONLY *HE* WHOM THE LORD WILL REVEAL HIM. IF EVERYONE KNOWS;THAN IT IS NOT A MYSTERY. wakeup.

yeah ,and it seems you are not one of them ;right

Quote

ONLY *HE* WHOM THE LORD WILL REVEAL HIM.

[942767]

mike:

I did not say that Jesus did not speak the Word of God. Of course he spoke them, but he said the following:

Quote

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

And I have already told you how the scriptures state that he came from heaven. His body was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the vrigin Mary. He became a living soul when he was born into this world, and the spirit was formed by the the Word of God that he obeyed unto death on the cross.

The Holy Ghost came from the Father in Heaven, and is the Father of the man, Christ Jesus, and so, that is how his body came from heaven, and it was the Holy Ghost that indwelt Jesus after he was baptized at the Jordan and he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so, the Word of God which obeyed unto death on the cross came from heaven. Do you understand the scriptures?

No need to speculate. The Word of God is clear.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Wakeup]

Quote (942767 @ June 21 2014,09:39)

mike: I did not say that Jesus did not speak the Word of God.  Of course he spoke them, but he said the following: Quote Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. And I have already told you how the scriptures state that he came from heaven.  His body was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the vrigin Mary.  He became a living soul when he was born into this world, and the spirit was formed by the the Word of God that he obeyed unto death on the cross. The Holy Ghost came from the Father in Heaven, and is the Father of the man, Christ Jesus, and so, that is how his body came from heaven, and it was the Holy Ghost that indwelt Jesus after he was baptized at the Jordan and he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so, the Word of God which obeyed unto death on the cross came from heaven.   Do you understand the scriptures? No need to speculate.  The Word of God is clear.   Love in Christ, Marty

Marty.

Quote

The Holy Ghost came from the Father in Heaven, and is the Father of the man, Christ Jesus, and so, that is how his body came from heaven, and it was the Holy Ghost that indwelt ***Jesus after he was baptized at the Jordan*** and he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so, the Word of God which obeyed unto death on the cross came from heaven. Do you understand the scriptures?

Jesus did not receive the Holy Ghost AFTER He was baptised.
For he is the child of the Holy Ghost.
The produce of the Holy Ghost.
He was never without the Holy Ghost ever.
He never sinned;because of the Holy Ghost in Him.

Unless you are speaking of another Jesus;and another gospel. So it seems to me.

wakeup.

[942767]

Hi Wakeup:

It may seem that way to you, but that is not what the scriptures state. Yes, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the vrigin Mary, and he was born into this world in the state of innocence, just as any other child is born, and he was raised under the Law by Jewish parents, and was just as any other Jewish Lad growing up under the Law, but he unlike all others did not sin(transgress the Law), and so, he was without sin when the Father said about him when he came to be baptized: “This is by beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”, but the Holy Ghost did not indwell him until after he was baptized in water.

And no, I am not speaking of another Jesus, just trying to get you to understand the truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2014,19:10)

Marty, this is what I referred to earlier: John 6 35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.” Who do you think said the words of verses 35-36? A.  The living, breathing BEING known as Jesus Christ? B.  The “spirit words of God”?

Marty has seemed to answer these questions by saying it was indeed the living, breathing BEING known as Jesus Christ who said the words of John 6:35-36.

Moving on:

John 6:37
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Marty, who said the words of verse 37?

A. The living, breathing BEING known as Jesus Christ?

B. The “spirit words of God”?

[942767]

Hi Mike:

I don't know what kind of game you think you are playing, but I do not feel like going to the routine of stating that Jesus spoke the Words that the Father told him to speak over and over to you as if you did not hear the first time.

I gave you the scripture which states that, didn't I”?

I did not give you and opinion. I gave you scripture. So, you can believe what the scriptures state or not.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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