Firstborn of/over all creation

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 12 2011,22:01)

Hi Kathi,

That is a good take on it. We KNOW from scripture that all things came FROM God and THROUGH Jesus, but beyond that, we don't really have a clue as to how “hands on” Jesus really was.

We only know that as the “Authority Figure”, his Father demands all the credit for all of creation…………..ALONE, even though Jesus presumably played a major part.

Good thinking with that comparison.

mike

Hi Mike,
Thanks! I thought you might find that interesting. The Bible says that all things came into being by the word of God.

Heb 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

We are also told that the Son was involved with creation by his hands…

Hebrews 1:10
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;…”

So, I think that it is possible that the Father commanded and the Son was the master craftsman to carry out the commands of His Father. Just my theory though.

Kathi

April 14, 2011 at 2:58 am#265758

Participant

Quote (Istari @ April 13 2011,15:19)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 11 2011,06:52)

Istari,
Jesus, according to the flesh was led by the Spirit. After He was risen, according to His flesh, He received the ok to give the Father's Spirit, together with the Spirit of the Son so that they would both dwell within the believers…by their spirit called 'the Comforter.'
Kathi

Kathi, are you telling me, suggesting to me, or agreeing with me concerning Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

If you are TELLING ME, then you have clearly missed the fact that that is exactly what I said.
If you are suggesting, then you have clearly missed the fact that that was exactly what I said.
If you are agreeing with me then you have missed the opportunity to forge a relationship on this issue.

Never the less – whether or nether – that is what I was saying and I am glad that you write the same.

Hi Istari,
Well, if you agree with my words in what you quoted me saying, then we agree on this part :;):

Kathi

April 14, 2011 at 3:01 am#265759

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ April 13 2011,20:53)

So, I think that it is possible that the Father commanded and the Son was the master craftsman to carry out the commands of His Father. Just my theory though.

Hi Kathi,

Why is it that the Father takes the sole credit? He says that He ALONE created. Why?

mike

April 14, 2011 at 3:28 am#265760

Participant

Mike,
If He said that He and His Son created the world, they would have gone “what Son?” It wasn't time for the revealing of the Son, the Son was still a mystery. God was in unity with the Son and presented them as one to the Israelites. When God revealed the Son, He also revealed His part in creation so the Father doesn't take full credit for creation after all when you read to the end of the book.

Kathi

April 14, 2011 at 3:33 am#265761

mikeboll64

Blocked

Kathi,

Read the prayer in Acts 4:24-30. Tell me the ONE person they prayed TO, and the ONE person they prayed THROUGH.

It was to the ONE they prayed TO that they gave the credit for creation. Nor has any scripture ever said Jesus created anything at all.

So my question stands as before.

mike

April 14, 2011 at 3:39 am#265762

Participant

Mike,
Surely you can see that the early church fathers understand the Son as taking part in creation. The NT wasn't written at the time that Acts was happening. The early church was still learning from the Spirit. They did not have the benefit of studying the NT and having several NT's in every home like us.

Kathi

April 14, 2011 at 3:40 am#265763

mikeboll64

Blocked

So now your theory is: Well, it doesn't say Jesus created in the scriptures, but the early church fathers say he did, so he did.

My question still stands as is.

April 14, 2011 at 3:57 am#265764

Participant

All, God doesnt lie. (If God alone created then God alone created) And the early church fathers were in disagreement over a lot of things. The apostacy started early, as Nick used to say, and I believe it. Because I have read them all.

April 14, 2011 at 4:06 am#265765

Participant

Mike,
It CLEARLY says that through Him all things were created…now back to the example I gave you regarding Rachel and Jacob and the maid. Rachel had a son THROUGH the maid. The maid did nearly the whole work, not Rachel who just gave the command.

Do you see how the Son could have done nearly ALL the work and still the word 'through' could be used?

Kathi

April 14, 2011 at 7:18 am#265766

Participant

Kathi, then why does it say:

Isaiah 44:24

'Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb “I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who alone stretches out the heavens; who spreads out the earth by myself;

(World English Bible.

April 14, 2011 at 7:21 am#265767

Participant

Also;

Isaiah 45

5 I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known me;

6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me. I am Yahweh, and there is no one else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

8 Distil, you heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness. Let the earth open, that it may bring forth salvation, and let it cause righteousness to spring up with it. I, Yahweh, have created it.

9 Woe to him who strives with his Maker– a clay pot among the clay pots of the earth! Shall the clay ask him who fashions it, 'What are you making?' or your work, 'He has no hands?'

10 Woe to him who says to a father, 'What have you become the father of?' or to a mother, 'To what have you given birth?'”

11 Thus says Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: “You ask me about the things that are to come, concerning my sons, and you command me concerning the work of my hands!

12 I have made the earth, and created man on it. I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens; and I have commanded all their army.

13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will make straight all his ways. He shall build my city, and he shall let my exiles go free, not for price nor reward,” says Yahweh of Armies.

14 Thus says Yahweh: “The labor of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over to you, and they shall be yours. They will go after you. They shall come over in chains; and they will bow down to you. They will make supplication to you: 'Surely God is in you; and there is none else. There is no other god.

15 Most certainly you are a God who hidden yourself, God of Israel, the Savior.'”

16 They will be disappointed, yes, confounded, all of them. Those who are makers of idols will go into confusion together.

17 Israel will be saved by Yahweh with an everlasting salvation. You will not be disappointed nor confounded to ages everlasting.

18 For thus says Yahweh who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and didn't create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited: “I am Yahweh; and there is no other.

19 I have not spoken in secret, in a place of the land of darkness. I didn't say to the seed of Jacob, 'Seek me in vain.' I, Yahweh, speak righteousness. I declare things that are right.

20 “Assemble yourselves and come. Draw near together, you who have escaped from the nations. Those have no knowledge who carry the wood of their engraved image, and pray to a god that can't save.

21 Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven't I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.

22 “Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

April 14, 2011 at 7:38 am#265768

Participant

Isaiah 55:11

'so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.

April 14, 2011 at 3:21 pm#265769

Participant

Hi Kathi1 I always quote Hebrew 1:8, its funny I never went past that verse 8, even though I have read it before. Another Scripture to prove Jesus preexisted. Also that by His hands all was created, but I still believe by the power of Almighty God…..
Peace and Love Irene

April 14, 2011 at 3:26 pm#265770

Participant

Karmaria! This scriptures are taking about Jacob, and not Jesus, if that is what you are implying….

Isa 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done [it]: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Isa 44:24 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

also why did you give Isiah 45:15-22, it has nothing to do with the firstborn of all creation.

Even though it says that God created all and there is none like Him, it was through Jesus, because in the New testament it says so.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Notice that it says by Him, the same in Col.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Genesis tells that that “Let us make man in our image. It was not God alone who created all.
But we know that Jesus told us that His Father is greater then He is. John 14:28
You have to take all Scriptures into consideration, and not just one or two…
Peace Irene

April 14, 2011 at 3:28 pm#265771

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ April 13 2011,22:28)

Kathi

Karmarie,
Here is what I believe answers your question.

Also, have you considered that the word that God sends is a person, His own Son?

April 14, 2011 at 3:35 pm#265772

Anonymous

Guest

Hi All,
I created so many questions and I don't know where I'm gonna start from.I'LL try to explain briefly on all points. First Baker I didn't thatr creation happened in a twinkle .Creation took trillions and trillions of years to create the spiritual creatures and also our world but when the son was within the Father as the word (John 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.)Jesus said that he was in the Father and that He came from the Father. this world belonged and still belong to Lucifer(now Satan) as his responsibility to educate humans but
then he rebbelled and flooded the world for the first time ever,because he felth that the only Just way for God to become man if He confront him as god of the world since it belonged to him and also to be a god of evil.Genesis 1:1 gap teory Read psalm 17.Genesis 1:2 Than God threw Lucifer and his angels as a
punishment to create our world again with new principles of Good and Evil since there id a third of heavenly hosts as an opponent,that's why God said very good to tell us that he is refering to the new creation according to the new principles not very good as God wanted it,when God create something He creates it perfect and eccelent not very good. The void and dark place mean that the world was completely destroyed through Lucifer, that's why exactly afterwords there is (and the spirit of God moved over the waters)and then following it ( And God said: Be light made. And light was made.) Now this Light is the Son Jesus which God sent to the world as spirit using Him as a sacrifice buried within Luciifer's spirit to create the new world between Jesus as the righteous and Lucifer as the wicked without the awareness of Lucifer.which took trillions and trillions to create till Adam was created.sybolcally the tree of good and evil, and also us the flesh belong to Satan and the soul to God.I will continue later it's time up for me.(parable of the hidden treasure)

April 14, 2011 at 4:08 pm#265773

Participant

Quote (csaliba @ April 15 2011,02:35)

Hi again! Let me ask you a question, I don't want to jump to a conclusion, what you mean.
I have a problem understanding what you mean. Did you say, that Lucifer (Satan) educated humans? Please give a Scripture were it says that??
Also when you say that the Word of God, how do you understand that? Because verse 14 says that The Word of God became flesh….
If I understand you right, you do believe in a gap theory do you?
Can I make a suggestion to you? It would be easier for me to understand, if you would make Paragraphs…like I just did….no offense OK
I don't believe the flesh is Sata's, the Spirit is from God and also the flesh. God created us in His image, as there is a Spirit in man….The flesh will simply return to dust.
Why do you believe that the flesh belongs to Satan?
Peace and Love Irene

April 14, 2011 at 7:16 pm#265774

from: http://biblescholarsforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=580

Participant

Apparently if we knew the nuances of Hebrew, the Gap theory does not 'hold water.' I found this on the web and without knowing anything about Hebrew myself, I can only consider that there may be something to what this guy wrote:

“1. Hebrew grammar does not allow for a gap. it has to do with the nuances of the Vav-explicitavum, which is a continuation (extrapolation) of what immediately came before.
2. Adam was made before the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:7-8).
3. Satan was made before the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:2).
4. Adam, just like Satan, was placed into the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:8).
5. the text does not tell us which one entered first.
5. Ezekiel 28 tells us that Satan was perfect and in the Garden of Eden.
6. Genesis 3 tells us the serpent (Nachash – lit. Bronze/Shiny) in the Garden was more cunning than any other beast of the field (cunning literally means naked – aroom). since Adam and Eve were naked, this implied complete harmony with creation/Creator, thus the “more naked” of the serpent implied a closer relationship to the Creator than any other created beings outside of man. this implies Satan had still not yet fallen by the time of Genesis 3.
7. Satan's description of being a keruv means that he looked very much like a “beast of the field,” with his four faces of lion, bull, eagle, and man (Ezekiel 1), all of which were created during the 6 days of creation.
7. Ezekiel 28 tells us Satan sinned by his iniquitous “traffick,” which is the term rekoolah, meaning actually “slander/lies.”
8. Genesis 3:4-5 shows Satan twisted/lied about the words of Eloheem to the man and woman.
9. Ezekiel 28 tells that Satan's judgment was to be “given to ashes.”
10 Genesis 3 tells us that the serpent's judgment was to “eat the dust” of the earth. “

I have never believed in the gap theory. I believe that God can make a mature earth as easily as Jesus could instantly turn water into wine and as easily as God could make a mature woman instantly from Adam's rib. I do believe that the Son of God who existed within the Father, was begotten from the Father when God said,”Let there be light.” That doesn't mean the Son began to exist then because I believe He had always existed as an offspring within the Father but on day 1, that offspring was begotten, before day one technically was labeled as 'day 1.'

Mark 10:6 says
6″But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
It does not say “But from the beginning of the NEW creation…

If the Gap theory were accurate, the creation which took place during six days would be a new creation, or renewed creation but this is not so.

Some NET notes about this Hebrew nuance:

“5 tn The disjunctive clause (conjunction + subject + verb) at the beginning of v. 2 gives background information for the following narrative, explaining the state of things when “God said…” (v. 3). Verse one is a title to the chapter, v. 2 provides information about the state of things when God spoke, and v. 3 begins the narrative per se with the typical narrative construction (vav [ו] consecutive followed by the prefixed verbal form). (This literary structure is paralleled in the second portion of the book: Gen 2:4 provides the title or summary of what follows, 2:5-6 use disjunctive clause structures to give background information for the following narrative, and 2:7 begins the narrative with the vav consecutive attached to a prefixed verbal form.) Some translate 1:2a “and the earth became,” arguing that v. 1 describes the original creation of the earth, while v. 2 refers to a judgment that reduced it to a chaotic condition. Verses 3ff. then describe the re-creation of the earth. However, the disjunctive clause at the beginning of v. 2 cannot be translated as if it were relating the next event in a sequence. If v. 2 were sequential to v. 1, the author would have used the vav consecutive followed by a prefixed verbal form and the subject.”

from: http://classic.net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Gen&chapter=1

I hope that helps give some direction for further study.
Kathi

April 14, 2011 at 7:19 pm#265775

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 14 2011,10:21)

Hi Irene,
I agree. I do believe that the Son had the same power as the Father but He was under submission to the Father in order to use it.

Love to you,
Kathi

April 14, 2011 at 7:57 pm#265776