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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,19:38) Keith actually hit the nail right on the nose when he said: Quote God did notbring birth to an angel [a god] that became a man andceased to be an angel for awhile andthen ceased to be a man to become an angel again who is “a little god” that we serve and bow down too that we call our god but he is not the “True god” because we only serve “one god”.
MikeBut I didn't say that did I? So why would you do that to my post?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,19:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2011,16:29) Only One translation renders John 1:18 as “a begotten God”.
And one that renders it as “only begotten god”. (NWT)
Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 31 2011,04:12) JA would like to say; “John 1:1 says,'In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the Word was God'.
Since we know that Jesus 'was' the Word AND John mentions neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, please can you show how it came about that the Father is claimed to be God and the Holy Spirit claimed to be God?Jesus was CERTAINLY 'In the beginning' with God… Who is arguing that?
But WHO is this person, GOD, who he is with?
Was it The Father?
Was the Father – a father before HE, the Father, 'procreated' a Son?
Conventional belief is that God was ALONE before the world was, so how is God 'Alone' if there are three of them?
Which one of the three Gods (In one) is ALMIGHTY GOD?Please be honest in your response as ungodly responses only serve to show a discreditable personage”
Who cares what JA says!WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,19:38) Claim: God brought Jesus forth. First scripture: Psalm 2:7
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.mike
MikeRead it in its context…
Yet have “I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “THIS DAY“ have I begotten thee. Pss 2:6, 7
If God brougth forth Jesus on that day who created the Holy hill of zion he sat on that day?
If God brought forth Jesus on that day then who created the day that he was brougth forth on?
WJ
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 31 2011,04:41) Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 31 2011,15:12) JA would like to say; “John 1:1 says,'In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the Word was God'.
Since we know that Jesus 'was' the Word AND John mentions neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, please can you show how it came about that the Father is claimed to be God and the Holy Spirit claimed to be God?Jesus was CERTAINLY 'In the beginning' with God… Who is arguing that?
But WHO is this person, GOD, who he is with?
Was it The Father?
Was the Father – a father before HE, the Father, 'procreated' a Son?
Conventional belief is that God was ALONE before the world was, so how is God 'Alone' if there are three of them?
Which one of the three Gods (In one) is ALMIGHTY GOD?Please be honest in your response as ungodly responses only serve to show a discreditable personage”
You should probably start a new thread in Truth and Traditions and ask those questions as this is about writtings of the anti-Nicene fathers.
Kerwin,
I appreciate that you want to stay on topic but you are wrong about the topic, it is about the ante-Nicene church father's writings, not the anti-Nicene church father's writings.Ante-means before
Anti-means against
Anyway, the first part of this thread holds a good deal of the ANTE-Nicene church father's writings as a reference that I was hoping for. No new ones were being added so the thread turned into a debate and that is ok with me. Anyone can still add more of the ante-Nicene church father's writings if they find some.
Kathi
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2011,04:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,19:38) Claim: God brought Jesus forth. First scripture: Psalm 2:7
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.mike
MikeRead it in its context…
Yet have “I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “THIS DAY“ have I begotten thee. Pss 2:6, 7
If God brougth forth Jesus on that day who created the the Holy hill of zion he sat on that day?
If God brought forth Jesus on that day then who created the day that he was brougth forth on?
WJ
Keith,Exactly! Zion is the heavenly Jerusalem which is made up of the saints. If Christ was begotten 'before all ages,' then Zion (God's people) existed before all ages because Christ was set upon Zion as King THE DAY HE WAS BEGOTTEN AS SON!
Then there is the problem of Hebrew 5 which says that Christ became High Priest the day He was begotten as Son.
Quote
5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”6 As He also says in another place:
“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;The Eternal Word became Son-King-High Priest all ON THE SAME DAY!
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 31 2011,13:56)
The Eternal Word became Son-King-High Priest all ON THE SAME DAY!Jack
Excellante'!
WJ
Jack and Keith read the scripture again:
NLT Heb 5:5
That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”…but Christ did not take this high and honourable office to himself, nor the glory of it; indeed, he did not receive it from man, nor was he made a priest according to the ceremonial law; yet he did not intrude himself into this office:
but he that said unto him, thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee; he appointed him to this office; he sent him to execute it; he anointed him with the oil of gladness above his fellows; he consecrated and established him in it with an oath; and prescribed to him what he should do, suffer, and offer; and declared to him what he might expect as the reward thereof. These words are taken out of Psalm 2:7; see Gill on Hebrews 1:5, and they are not to be considered as constitutive of Christ's priesthood, as if that was intended by the begetting of him as a Son; but as descriptive of the person, who called him to it, who stood in the relation of a Father to Christ, and Christ in the relation of a Son to him; therefore the one was very proper to call, and the other a very fit person to be called to this office, being every way capable of executing it, to the glory of God, and to the good of men.
He is telling the reader that the person who told the Son that He was His Son, that is the person who also made Him High Priest. The Son was not begotten into the office of the High Priesthood, He was appointed into it by the same one who beget Him as His Son.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,06:27) Jack and Keith read the scripture again: NLT Heb 5:5
That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”…but Christ did not take this high and honourable office to himself, nor the glory of it; indeed, he did not receive it from man, nor was he made a priest according to the ceremonial law; yet he did not intrude himself into this office:
but he that said unto him, thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee; he appointed him to this office; he sent him to execute it; he anointed him with the oil of gladness above his fellows; he consecrated and established him in it with an oath; and prescribed to him what he should do, suffer, and offer; and declared to him what he might expect as the reward thereof. These words are taken out of Psalm 2:7; see Gill on Hebrews 1:5, and they are not to be considered as constitutive of Christ's priesthood, as if that was intended by the begetting of him as a Son; but as descriptive of the person, who called him to it, who stood in the relation of a Father to Christ, and Christ in the relation of a Son to him; therefore the one was very proper to call, and the other a very fit person to be called to this office, being every way capable of executing it, to the glory of God, and to the good of men.
He is telling the reader that the person who told the Son that He was His Son, that is the person who also made Him High Priest. The Son was not begotten into the office of the High Priesthood, He was appointed into it by the same one who beget Him as His Son.
Kathi
Kathi,You're in denial Sis! You are guarding your precious little Polytheism. Your explanation does not make any sense.The apostle to the Hebrew unmistakingly connected Christ's actual BECOMING High Priest with the day He was begotten as Son.
Then there is the problem with Hebrews 1 which says that His name as 'begotten' and 'firstborn' is a name that is “SO MUCH BETTER than the angels.” But chapter 2 explicitly says that He was made a little LOWER than the angels. Therefore, if Christ had always been the 'begotten' and 'firstborn' then there never was a time when He was lower than the angels.
And don't forget Peter who explicitly said that Psalm 2:7 was about His resurrection.
Quote 30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also WRITTEN in the second Psalm: ‘ You are My Son,
TODAY I have begotten You.’34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:
‘ I will give you the sure mercies of David.’
It CLEARLY says that God RAISED Him from the dead AS IT IS WRITTEN in the second Psalm, “TODAY I have begotten You.”
You are perpetuating a falsehood Sis!
Jack
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,14:27) Jack and Keith read the scripture again: NLT Heb 5:5
That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”…but Christ did not take this high and honourable office to himself, nor the glory of it; indeed, he did not receive it from man, nor was he made a priest according to the ceremonial law; yet he did not intrude himself into this office:
KathiHis priesthood was linked to his manhood.
He came in the flesh before he became the High priest.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2011,06:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,14:27) Jack and Keith read the scripture again: NLT Heb 5:5
That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”…but Christ did not take this high and honourable office to himself, nor the glory of it; indeed, he did not receive it from man, nor was he made a priest according to the ceremonial law; yet he did not intrude himself into this office:
KathiHis priesthood was linked to his manhood.
He came in the flesh before he became the High priest.
WJ
Keith,Exactly! The Psalm 2 prophecy is EVERYWHERE applied to Christ POST INCARNATION!
It's soooo clear!
But Kathi is stuck on the literal application. She has suggested in the past that a womb is needed for the Psalm 2 prophecy to be fulfilled. Okay, Jonah said,
“From the WOMB of sheol I cried and the Lord heard my cry and delivered me.”
Therefore, when Jonah came out of the WOMB of sheol he was 'begotten.' Now Jesus said that Jonah's being in the fish was the sign of His death and resurrection. So we can say that Christ was 'begotten' from the WOMB of sheol when God raised him up from the dead.
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2011,14:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,14:27) Jack and Keith read the scripture again: NLT Heb 5:5
That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”…but Christ did not take this high and honourable office to himself, nor the glory of it; indeed, he did not receive it from man, nor was he made a priest according to the ceremonial law; yet he did not intrude himself into this office:
KathiHis priesthood was linked to his manhood.
He came in the flesh before he became the High priest.
WJ
Yes I know Keith, did you reread the verse? Do you see that it is not saying that “Today i have begotten you” was the day of being appointed as the High Priest but only that the one who said “Today I have begotten you” is the same person who appointed Him as the High Priest.Can you verify that point for me, Keith?
Thanks
Jack,
Why are you talking about me mainly and not to me? I find that immature. Does talking about me make it easier for you to accuse me falsely? I believe I have the early church father's on my side as far as the translation of monogenes in John 1:18. It is an adjective WITH a verb…an action. It is not an adjective with a noun.Kathi
Jack,
The resurrection showed that Jesus was not only 100% man but fully God too. The resurrection proved that God beget Him as His Son before creation. He was fully God before He became flesh. Look at the order of events here:1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son,
whom He appointed heir of all things,
through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
When He had made purification of sins,
He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.When the Son, who the world was created through, took on flesh, that is when He became lower than the angels (for a little while) after He made purification of sins, He was exalted above the angels. The Son of God that created became man/God and was exalted. He is both Christ and Lord, both Messiah and God…as Messiah, He is the High Priest, as God, He is Lord. He is both. As Messiah, He is our brother, as the begotten God, He is our everlasting Father of our salvation who Has a Father that beget Him.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,15:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2011,14:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,14:27) Jack and Keith read the scripture again: NLT Heb 5:5
That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”…but Christ did not take this high and honourable office to himself, nor the glory of it; indeed, he did not receive it from man, nor was he made a priest according to the ceremonial law; yet he did not intrude himself into this office:
KathiHis priesthood was linked to his manhood.
He came in the flesh before he became the High priest.
WJ
Yes I know Keith, did you reread the verse? Do you see that it is not saying that “Today i have begotten you” was the day of being appointed as the High Priest but only that the one who said “Today I have begotten you” is the same person who appointed Him as the High Priest.Can you verify that point for me, Keith?
Thanks
Yes KathiBut also in the context of Psalms he is set on the Holy Hill mount Zion when the Father declared “this day” he would be his Son.
Once again, without Jesus “nothing came into being” including the days. Also Peters words verify that he was Begotten after his resurrection.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,16:03) Jack,
The resurrection showed that Jesus was not only 100% man but fully God too. The resurrection proved that God beget Him as His Son before creation. He was fully God before He became flesh. Look at the order of events here:
KathiIf he was fully God before He became flesh then he never had a beginning.
If he was fully God then there was never a time he came into existence.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2011,15:39) I believe I have the early church father's on my side as far as the translation of monogenes in John 1:18. It is an adjective WITH a verb…an action.
KathiYes and it is never used of Jesus until he came in the flesh.
The proof is if John believed what you did about the word then he would have put it in John 1:1c but he didn't did he?
It is only found in Johns writings when referring to Jesus.
Then it is found in Lukes writings translated as “Only child” or “Only Son” and “Only daughter”. Luke 7:12 – Luke 8:42 -Luke 9:38.
The Only other place it is not referring to Jesus is Heb 11:17 where it references Isaac and we know it is not speaking of his “birth” as the “Only child”.
The NASB is the “Only” translation that renders John 1:18 as “the begotten God”.
Tell me Kathi why the translators of the NASB didn't translate it “only begotten” son, daughter, or child in Luke 7:12 – Luke 8:42 -Luke 9:38?
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 31 2011,02:03) Mike, How about you and Kathi answering my point from Hebrews 5? Jesus was 'begotten' as High Priest the day He was begotten as Son.
Quote 5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”6 As He also says in another place:
“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;You and Kathi say that Jesus was begotten as Son before all ages. Yet He was 'begotten' as High priest when He was begotten as Son. Was Jesus begotten as High Priest before all ages?
Jack
Hi Jack,Look at your scripture – this is how I understand it:
Christ didn't glorify himself to become High Priest, but was glorified by the One who said, “You are my Son”. This is the same One who says in another place, “You are a Priest forever”.
I don't see the link you are claiming that they both happened at the same time.
Now let me ask you a question about the scripture you posted: Jesus will be Priest FOREVER. How is a Priest TO God also the God he is the Priest TO?
I will also steal this from JA's thoughts: If the “God” in 1:1b is the Father, then Jesus was already a Son to him, and therefore begotten at a prior time to the “in the beginning” referred to in that scripture. If the “God” in 1:1b is NOT the Father, then please tell us who you think it is.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2011,10:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,19:38) Keith actually hit the nail right on the nose when he said: Quote God did notbring birth to an angel [a god] that became a man andceased to be an angel for awhile andthen ceased to be a man to become an angel again who is “a little god” that we serve and bow down too that we call our god but he is not the “True god” because we only serve “one god”.
MikeBut I didn't say that did I? So why would you do that to my post?
WJ
Because you are “spot on” except for the words I struck.mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2011,11:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,19:38) Claim: God brought Jesus forth. First scripture: Psalm 2:7
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.mike
MikeRead it in its context…
Yet have “I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “THIS DAY“ have I begotten thee. Pss 2:6, 7
If God brougth forth Jesus on that day who created the the Holy hill of zion he sat on that day?
If God brought forth Jesus on that day then who created the day that he was brougth forth on?
WJ
Keith,We've been through this and through this. The Hebrew word “yowm” can mean “any general time period”. It does not have to mean a literal day here anymore than it means that Jesus' origin was from “DAYS of antiquity” in Micah 5:2. So your point is null and void because “yowm” doesn't necessarily refer to a “day” as we consider it.
I won't have this discussion in this thread, but just suffice to know that YOUR answer doesn't actually answer MY scripture because of the word “yowm” and it's many definitions. Please try again with something you can scripturally SUPPORT.
Also, that reminds me that you and I had a good discussion going on Micah 5:4 before you had troubles at home and left HN for a while. I seem to recall you were backed into a corner and stuttering different things out of the side of your mouth because you were stumped.
I'll look for the thread and bump it for you, okay?
mike
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