Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

Participant

Kerwin

my dear friend you are lost in your understanding;you say that

Quote

1 John 2:19 (Young's Literal Translation)

19out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but — that they might be manifested that they are not all of us.

and you mix it with ;Jn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

and you saying;and yet you seem not to understand John 6:38, where Jesus teaches he came from God spiritually even though we know he came from his mother literally.

It seems to me you have a gender problem ;Lk 1:26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,

Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

now we see who is the father of Jesus ;sinse you see things can you tell us who is ;the holy one to be born;? before he is in Marie he is already called holy one.

Pierre

May 7, 2011 at 11:35 pm#245573

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 07 2011,23:14)

Paladin………I have brought out before about Jesus telling his Apostles they were not of this World just as he was not for this world and they were from above also. What Generally happens when these things are brought out is people just ignore them, and go right on as if they were never presented. WJ has done that with what you have put forth to consider , Mike also does that to and Irene and Pierre do it also, Once i ask Irene about her assumption of Wisdom being Jesus and Showed Her that wisdom was (personified) as a She and Jesus was a he, and that wisdom is an attribute not a real person. but she just ignored and insisted Wisdom was Jesus Himself, I did the same with the Lucifer thing where it say He was a Man in the book of Isiah. So there seems no head way is made here, it is as if everyone has already made up their minds, even though scriptures says we see and understand only in part. It would be much better if we all have a teachable attitude, while each of us can contribute thoughts and explore each others reasonings we can still be teachable and learn new things and come to a more sound and surer foundation of Faith.

I am not a Greek Scholar and admit it, but what i find interesting is how i percieve what you say the Greek meanings are clearly, and that is amazing to me. What you have brought out I seem to have been taught by the Spirit of GOD already. “Brethern you have no need of a teacher , the spirit itself will teach you all things” What i find is that what you bring out edifies me and i believe all who are truly seeking the truth also are edified by your posts brother. My desire is that all of us come to the full measure of the stature of Christ. My hope and prayer is the you do not get to discouraged and leave the site as many Have over the years.

Peace and love to you and yours Paladin…………………………………………….gene

I will try to make it clear, my friend, because I think it is important. The vessel is faulted, but the message is not.

When Jesus said “John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me” [John 6:38], he used the word katabebeeka which is the indicative perfect active form of katabainw. Please follow closely my friend, do not lost this chain of thought.

This is the same word that tells us “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” [James 1:17] “Cometh down” is katabainon = present active nominative neuter form of katabainw.

So here we have an instance in which we are told of God-given gifts coming down from heaven. Also involving the use of katabainw.

Rev 3:12 tells us of the city of New Jerusalem “coming down out of heaven” and uses “katabainousa” which is also a form of katabainw.

We are told of rain coming down from heaven, and storms and lightning also, coming down from heaven.

I do not believe storms are formed in God's abode, and stored for future use. I do not believe God has wrath stored in heaven for use on earth. I believe it is always a reference to things that are consinged to duty by the authority of God who is in heaven. So, when scripture says lightning fell from heaven, I think it is a reference to God's use of lightning; i.e., by his authority and knowledge. That comes from heaven.

There is no place ever in scripture that describes the person of Jesus in pre-existant heaven, that then tells us he came down to be born of a woman. That necessary link is missing, unless you understnad “came down from heaven” is a reference to “This came from the authority of God in heaven,” which is shortened to “this came from heaven,” just like “The
Baptism of John, from heaven or of men?”

Both “from” and “of” in that verse are translated from the Greek “ek.” So it is asking the question from both as sources of authority.

I think the use of katabainw to cover the instances of gifts from God, storms, rain, fire, and a host of other things “coming down from heaven” is a reference to “they came by the authority of God. Otherwise, it becomes necessary to explain how gifts are stored in heaven, how rain is sustained in heaven, ho wfiore is stored, and a host of other things that come from heaven, like John's baptism.

And when Jesus raised the question about John's baptism it was always about the authority, where did it come from. And when they refused to say “from heaven” he refused to tell them whence his authority.

The use of the indicative perfect active does nothing toward proving any actual existanec in heaven, as has already been demonstrated in a previous post; because lies, false testimony, if/then situations, and an assortment of other applications are included in this type of language. It does not prove a litteral existance of Jesus in heaven. Instead it is the language used for exceptions to the expected.

If you were to take an airplane, and when the rain starts, fly to its source, I do not think you would arrive at God's throne, but would be in the sky above the earth; commonly called
“the heavens.” The same can be said for lightning, and hail, fire, and brimstone. All things that “fall from heaven” fall by God's authority, from the heavens, rather than from the scene of God's throne.

Whatever way Jesus is “not of this world” it is the same way the Apostles were “not of this world” [John 17:16]. They all did things by the authority of God in heaven, and in that respect, they came down from heaven, along with John's baptism.

Does this clear it up any?

May 7, 2011 at 11:50 pm#245574

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2011,02:30)

Paladin has attacked me and my writings which are only the writings of the best Greek Scholarship of our day.

Please show us all the post where I attacked you prior to your attack on Greek users whom you accuse of not knowing the Greek forms or uses. Please indicate any post in which I have failed to always treat you with dignity and respect. I did not attack you, I asked you to account for why you attacked those with whom you disagree.

Quote

I don't claim to be a Greek expert or even that I know much about all the tenses, moods etc.

Sure you did, when you attacked other posters who reference the Greek, and asserted your own knowledge as somehow truer than theirs.

Quote

Paladin says I chose to attack his character yet practically his whole post attacks me and the scholarship of 1000s.

Please show me where I attacked your character rather than attacking your positional statements about the meaning and form of Greek words.

As for “scholarship” allow me to remind you God himself gave us a sign of his disfavor with “Scholars” when the clergy developed what they labeled “orthodox position” and turned the church over to the emperor so the state could kill anyone who disagreed with the church's “authority” and “orthodox position.”

You would think that when the gospel of Jesus Christ hit the news stands, there would follow a period of enlightenment unseen previously in history of manking. Instead, at that point in history 452 a.d, whe world was introduced to a thousand years of dark ages. Those dark ages did not let up until 1452 when the bible first came off the printing presses and became available to the common man, taking “orthodoxy” out of the hands of clergy, and self-appointed “vicars of Christ.”

Please clearup this statement of yours that I attacked your character, when it was you who started the attack, calling Greek users dishonest, and asserting your position without examples to prove your assertions.

May 8, 2011 at 12:02 am#245575

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 08 2011,03:01)

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,06:32)

“The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?”

Paladin – the baptism of John the (order)came from a angel or a vision but there is no baptism in heaven,

So let me see if I understand your position, from your own words –

Jesus to Jews

“The baptism of John, was it 1) from heaven
or was it 2) from men –

Or was it 3) from Pierre 3:16, from an angel or a vision

I was not asking you to help Jesus rewrite the account, Pierre, I was asking you what the simple question of Jesus is to the Jews about the baptism of John.

He gave them two options to consider. “Was it from heaven or of men?”

May 8, 2011 at 12:37 am#245577

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ May 08 2011,18:02)

Quote (terraricca @ May 08 2011,03:01)

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,06:32)

“The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?”

Paladin – the baptism of John the (order)came from a angel or a vision but there is no baptism in heaven,

So let me see if I understand your position, from your own words –

Jesus to Jews

“The baptism of John, was it 1) from heaven
or was it 2) from men –

Or was it 3) from Pierre 3:16, from an angel or a vision

I was not asking you to help Jesus rewrite the account, Pierre, I was asking you what the simple question of Jesus is to the Jews about the baptism of John.

He gave them two options to consider. “Was it from heaven or of men?”

Paladin

Mt 21:25 John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?”
They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’
Mk 1:4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the

so what is it that come from heaven the preaching of baptism or the baptism,?

Pierre

May 8, 2011 at 1:02 am#245580

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2011,07:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,15:27)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,09:30)

Good points Mike. That is the whole issue. He cannot prove that Jesus is not speaking in literal terms but instead a parable.

Hi Keith,

mike

They could have written it like this…

…[For the thought and plan of God] came down from heaven, not to do [its] own will, but the will of him that sent [it]. John 6:38

Please show me the post where I said any such thing.

May 8, 2011 at 1:32 am#245582

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2011,12:18)

Quote (942767 @ May 07 2011,17:10)

Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2011,10:00)

Marty

Quote

The meaning of the name “Jesus” is YHWH is salvation. The scripture states: “They shall call his name” Emmanuel. Which is interpreted to mean “God with us”. We have seen God's character manifest through his life and death.

Love in Christ,
Marty

God can not be manifested in any way in dead

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

God's character was manifested through Jesus suffering on the cross and his death because it was God that he was obeying.

No, God Himself did not and cannot die. He is eternal.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

it was not the character of God but of Christ that was put to the test,faithful until dead.

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Jesus said:

Quote

John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 8, 2011 at 1:48 am#245583

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,19:32)

Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2011,12:18)

Quote (942767 @ May 07 2011,17:10)

Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2011,10:00)

Marty

Quote

Love in Christ,
Marty

God can not be manifested in any way in dead

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

God's character was manifested through Jesus suffering on the cross and his death because it was God that he was obeying.

No, God Himself did not and cannot die. He is eternal.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

it was not the character of God but of Christ that was put to the test,faithful until dead.

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Jesus said:

Quote

John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

that as nothing to do ,only what it says;

the fact that Christ says that the father is in him and him in the father;only means that the will of the father is in him as the sole purpose and that he Christ will is to do what that will wants.are one

and nothing else.

so it is Christ character that is doing and respond to all things but with Gods will in his mind and heart,

Pierre

May 8, 2011 at 1:59 am#245584

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2011,12:23)

Marty

Quote

In Revelation 19:13, the scripture states that “His Name” is called the Word of God, and it does not say that he is the Word of God. The Word of God is that which God has spoken, and the scriptures in Hebrews 1 state that God has spoken to humanity through His Son in these last days. Jesus obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross. “His name” is called refers to the character or spirit of Jesus which was formed by God in him through perfect obedience to His Word. And since he obeyed God's Word without sin even unto death on the cross, it is through this same Word that he is a life-giving spirit, and it is by this Word that he will judge the living and the dead.

were do you get those explanations?

wen you father or mother look at you at your birth his name ,will be called Marty, right or this is not right?

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

This is what the definition of the word ¨name¨ according to strong concordance:

Quote

1) name: univ. of proper names

2) the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.

3) persons reckoned up by name

4) the cause or reason named: on this account, because he suffers as a Christian, for this reason

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 8, 2011 at 2:59 am#245585

Participant

Quote (Baker @ May 07 2011,13:18)

OK Marty, and that Word became flesh…..verse 14……Then John tells us in

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

He came from Heaven, and He will come again as the Word of God and King of Kings…..Rev. 19

funny He is the Word in Rev. 19, but not in John 1, even though it says in verse 14 that He became flesh….. it all fits….Peace Irene

Hi Mrs:

The ¨Word¨ in John 1:14 is ¨Logos¨ and the meaning of Logos is:

Quote

1) of speech

a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

b) what someone has said

1) a word

2) the sayings of God

3) decree, mandate or order

4) of the moral precepts given by God

5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets

6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

c) discourse

1) the act of speaking, speech

2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking

3) a kind or style of speaking

4) a continuous speaking discourse – instruction

d) doctrine, teaching

e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative

f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law

g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed

2) its use as respect to the MIND alone

a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating

b) account, i.e. regard, consideration

c) account, i.e. reckoning, score

d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment

e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation

1) reason would

f) reason, cause, ground

3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

Definition 3 is an opinion, as you can see it is biased toward the Trinity doctrine.

And, my understanding of John 14 is that which God has said became flesh or a reality.

In John 6:38 Jesus makes it clear that he is talking about the words that he was speaking to humanity came from heaven.

He had been talking to those who were with him about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and some were offended by this, and so, he gives the following explanation of what he was saying:

Quote

Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Of course his body, and soul came from heaven when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

But it is what he did in the body that defines who he really is. He obeyed the Word of God which came from heaven even unto death on the cross. It is through his obedience to the Word of God that his spirit is formed and through his life of obedience to the Word of God that we see that he is the express image of God_s person.

And so when he was talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he was really talking about someone obeying the Word of God that he was speaking to humanity.

We know that God was dwelling in him by His Spirit, and he said that he only did what the Father showed him, and he said also that his doctrine was not his but that the Father told him what he should say.

Quote

John 12:44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

In the below listed scripture Jesus states that he is in the Father, and so, maybe you can tell me what he means by this?

Quote

17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee

Maybe by this you can understand how he was in the Father from the beginning, and how he came down from heaven to do the will of the Father.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 8, 2011 at 3:54 am#245588

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,19:59)

Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2011,12:23)

Marty

Quote

were do you get those explanations?

wen you father or mother look at you at your birth his name ,will be called Marty, right or this is not right?

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

This is what the definition of the word ¨name¨ according to strong concordance:

Quote

1) name: univ. of proper names

3) persons reckoned up by name

4) the cause or reason named: on this account, because he suffers as a Christian, for this reason

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

so I am right

Pierre

May 8, 2011 at 11:53 am#245595

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2011,07:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,15:27)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,09:30)

Good points Mike. That is the whole issue. He cannot prove that Jesus is not speaking in literal terms but instead a parable.

Hi Keith,

mike

They could have written it like this…

…[For the thought and plan of God] came down from heaven, not to do [its] own will, but the will of him that sent [it]. John 6:38

Please tell me how it is important to say how they “could have translated it.”

“They” (whoever that might be) could have translated it “WJ's gonna tell a story on me.” But they didn't, did they? It's a foolish line of reasoning.

All of translation is subjective, based on education, experience, bias, parental guidance, as well as a host of unknown and uncounted various and sundry creeds and doctrinal pulls.

This is why God never allowed men to just throw away the originals after translating them. He kept them for proofing the translation against the original.

May 8, 2011 at 12:06 pm#245596

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2011,07:40)

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,15:35)

Please give me the reference where “the best Greek Scholar of the day” said any such thing as you put in your post.

Paladin

Every thing I posted in my thread was directly from Strongs.

You are misleading and I will show you how.

Strong's Dictionary?

Strong's Concordance?

What?

May 8, 2011 at 12:13 pm#245597

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 08 2011,11:37)

Quote (Paladin @ May 08 2011,18:02)

Quote (terraricca @ May 08 2011,03:01)

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,06:32)

“The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?”

Paladin – the baptism of John the (order)came from a angel or a vision but there is no baptism in heaven,

So let me see if I understand your position, from your own words –

Jesus to Jews

“The baptism of John, was it 1) from heaven
or was it 2) from men –

Or was it 3) from Pierre 3:16, from an angel or a vision

I was not asking you to help Jesus rewrite the account, Pierre, I was asking you what the simple question of Jesus is to the Jews about the baptism of John.

He gave them two options to consider. “Was it from heaven or of men?”

Paladin

so what is it that come from heaven the preaching of baptism or the baptism,?

Pierre

Pierre;

(sigh!)

Jesus did not say “The preaching of John's baptism, whence cometh it?”

Jesus did not say “The people's reaction to John's baptism, whence cometh it?”

Jesus said, “John's baptism, whence cometh it? From heaven or of men?”

Where do you come up with asking if Jesus meant the preaching or the baptizing?

Why are you so reluctant to give a simple answer to a simple question? Could it be because, like those Jews of old, you see a trap in the question, so will not answer, just as they would not answer?

“The baptism (not the “preaching about baptism” ) of John, whence cometh it, from heaven or of men?

May 8, 2011 at 12:14 pm#245598

Baker

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ May 08 2011,23:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2011,07:40)

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,15:35)

Please give me the reference where “the best Greek Scholar of the day” said any such thing as you put in your post.

Paladin

Every thing I posted in my thread was directly from Strongs.

You are misleading and I will show you how.

Strong's Dictionary?

Strong's Concordance?

What?

Paladin! There is a Greek and Hebrew Strong's Dictionary. We have one also….. One can look up any word in any of those languages.
Real need……Peace Irene

May 8, 2011 at 1:44 pm#245602

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To All………….The examination of the incarnation doctrine , stands like this Jesus the man did not preexist his berth , he was a man, GOD had from the start of creation Prophesied to be born from a women He came into existence at his berth on earth, GOD put his LOGOS in Him at the JORDAN River and from that time forth he (GOD) was incarnate into the Flesh being Jesus. After that GOD sent him out into the world to Speak GOD the Fathers Words to us all. Jesus was the culmination of GOD'S plan for humanity the perfect Man, who GOD the Father Perfected in the Flesh. The first of many brethren to attain that goal we are told. ” until we all come to the full measure of the stature of Christ , by the same LOGOS of GOD that was (IN) our fellow man and brother Jesus our Lord. Paladin has presented it correctly. IMO

peace and love to you all……………………………………….gene

May 8, 2011 at 2:41 pm#245609

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 08 2011,14:54)

Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,19:59)

Quote (terraricca @ May 07 2011,12:23)

Marty

Quote

were do you get those explanations?

wen you father or mother look at you at your birth his name ,will be called Marty, right or this is not right?

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

This is what the definition of the word ¨name¨ according to strong concordance:

Quote

1) name: univ. of proper names

3) persons reckoned up by name

4) the cause or reason named: on this account, because he suffers as a Christian, for this reason

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

so I am right

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

The name marty has no significance relative to my character or position in the body of Christ.

However, if you say Mary is a Son of God then it takes on some significance. It is what I do in this body that defines who I am.

Quote

Proverbs 22:1
A GOOD name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 8, 2011 at 2:48 pm#245610