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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,09:39) Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,13:27) The problem is that you are not reading what is being said, but only reacting on your pre-conceived notion that Jesus pre-existed.
I disagree, Marty.I think the REAL problem is that not one of the scriptures you showed prohibit Jesus from having a spiritual pre-existence. Correct me if I'm wrong, sir. And if I am wrong, please point me to the exact words of the scriptures you quoted that explain how Jesus couldn't possibly have pre-existed in the form of God before emptying himself and being made as a human being.
If you cannot do that, then perhaps you could answer the question I asked again. Because your answer of “No, it's not possible” is based on your claim that some scripture prohibits the pre-existence of Christ. If that scripture does not exist, then your answer must be adjusted, right?
The other problem is that you think it takes a “vivid imagination” to understand “I came down from heaven” and “what if you see me ascend to where I was before”, as they are written.
Marty, the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking in John 6 clearly understood that this “regular man”, whose parents they all knew, was for some odd reason, all of a sudden now claiming that he “came down from heaven”. They didn't know what he meant by that, but they at least knew what his words were saying. Why don't you?
mike
Mike;The reason the Jews could not understand Jesus' words is not because of any problem with clarity, but because God stopped their ears so they could not hear, and stopped their eyes that they could not see; because if those Jews understood with their hearts, heard with their ears, and saw with their eyes, they would have communicated their thoughts, and argued for years over what the words meant, and Satan would have picked up on it, and would not have crucified the son of God.
This is why God issued a separate language revelation in the Greek Septuagint, and the Jews were ensnared by it, and fell –
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” [Isa 28:11-13]This was designed by God so the Gentiles could come into the kingdom previously reserved for the Jews; ” (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”[Rom 11:8-25]
“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,09:59) Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,13:38) That's o.k. Mike, none of your references say anything about “eye witness” either, because it is your standard that you have turned into a requirement, not scriptures.
Hi Paladin,Your post is the act of desparation. Acts 1:9 has the words “taken up before our very eyes”, which refers to people actually EYE-WITNESSING the ascension of Jesus. The actual Greek says “blepo autos” which means “themselves saw by use of the eye”.
What you've done is try to find any mention of “see” and “witness” in the same sentence, as if those two words in the same sentence would equate to someone EYE-WITNESSING an event.
What I wanted to know is if anyone was ever said to have actually seen Jesus ascend from sheol back to the earth. Do you have any scriptures that show this happened? YES or NO?
I also await responses to these two points:
1. So, I'm still looking for some scriptural validation to support your “out of the blue” assumption that, in the middle of a teaching about how he came down from heaven, Jesus followed up this teaching by speaking of “ascending to where he was before”, meaning “from sheol back to the earth”.
2. So, I await an answer on why you think the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were clever enough to know he was speaking of COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, but you apparently are not.
peace,
mike
Well you see Mike, the problem is I cannot respond to your question, because you need to address it to someone who acknowledges that theri understanding is “out of the blue” and “moronic” in in origin.If you expect courteous answers from me, you will ask courteous questions of me.
Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,16:55) Some translators are even now adding words to the translations to make their own doctrine more evident.Case in point is a new translation called “Net Bible” which adds a word to John 1:1 to “clarify” a position point – 1:1 “In the beginning 1 was the Word, and the Word was with God, 2 and the Word was fully God.” The word was “fully” God. John never said any such thing, but that doesn't stop the ranslator (Daniel wallace) from making the effort.
I've brought up that same point before, Paladin. The CEV adds “truly” instead of “fully”. Neither words are there in the Greek, and it is very telling that these translators don't have enough faith that the scriptural words themselves teach their doctrine that they are forced to “doctor” God's written word to get their point across. (Yes, I could have used either “logos” or “rhema” for my last statement.
)I've been thinking about starting a thread about it sometime. Bible Gateway.com has the 1984 version of the NIV and the 2011 version as well. We could fill a thread on just the words they've changed in this short time in order to further slant the scriptures toward their belief that Jesus is God.
Here's just one example:
Phil 2:6 NIV 1984
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,Phil 2:6 NIV 2011
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;Capping the “G” in the word “God” is a major slant in itself. But this discussion is for another time in another thread, eh?
mike
Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,16:47)
The bread of life were the Words that God was speaking to humanity through him. It was the Holy Spirit that was indwelling him and speaking to humanity through him.
So was it the Holy Spirit speaking through him when he said he would send the Holy Spirit as ANOTHER helper after he ascended?Marty, you are in error, because Jesus, (not the Holy Spirit), is the only begotten Son of God. And it was JESUS who said he was the bread that came down from heaven, not the Holy Spirit. God filled Jesus WITH His Holy Spirit without measure, just as we can be filled with Holy Spirit. It didn't mean Jesus WAS the Holy Spirit any more than it means WE are the Holy Spirit when we receive the gift of it.
Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,16:47)
Jesus existed in the heart of the Father prior to the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person.
Again, you are in error. Because Jesus existed IN THE PRESENCE of the Father with much glory before the creation of the world. Would you normally take “in your presence” to mean “in your heart”?
Show me another example from the history of the world that “in your presence” really means “in your heart” or “as a thought in your head”. If you can find no other instance when “in your presence” means one of these other things, then chances are, it doesn't mean that in 17:5 either.Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,16:47)
Jesus says “what if you see the Son of man ascend where he was before”? He was not the Son of man until he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world as a living soul.
You're really grasping now. By “Son of Man”, Jesus means “ME”. He is saying, “What if you see ME ascend to where I was before”. Besides, like I've asked Paladin to no avail, where else was the “Son of Man” actually SEEN ascending to?Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,16:47)
Forget about Philippians 2:6 referring in some way to Jesus prior to his birth into this world. The Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility and giving the life of Jesus as an example of humility. He existed in the form of God in his earthly ministry as God's Christ, not in heaven prior to his birth.
No, how about I forget YOUR oddball, alternate meaning to Phil 2 instead? These are YOUR words, Marty: “He existed in the form of God in his earthly ministry as God's Christ”. When exactly then did he EMPTY HIMSELF OF THIS “FORM OF GOD” and become made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING?Your scenarios don't add up. Anyone can start with a pre-conceived notion and, given time, find many scriptures they can claim as support for that notion. (See the Trinitarians for an example of this fact.)
So I won't spend anymore time chasing down your “alternate scenarios” to clear scriptural wording. Instead, I will continue to press you for the one scripture that prohibits Jesus from pre-existing.
mike
Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,17:01) The burden of proof is on you if you are going to say that he pre-existed in the form of God prior to his birth into this world.
I disagree again Marty.I see the burden of proof being on you to show that these words……………
1. I came down from heaven.
2. What if you see me ascend to where I was before?
3. He was taken up before our very eyes.…………….don't teach that Jesus came down from heaven and was later taken up to where he was before.
mike
Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,17:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,09:59) Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,13:38) That's o.k. Mike, none of your references say anything about “eye witness” either, because it is your standard that you have turned into a requirement, not scriptures.
Hi Paladin,Your post is the act of desparation. Acts 1:9 has the words “taken up before our very eyes”, which refers to people actually EYE-WITNESSING the ascension of Jesus. The actual Greek says “blepo autos” which means “themselves saw by use of the eye”.
What you've done is try to find any mention of “see” and “witness” in the same sentence, as if those two words in the same sentence would equate to someone EYE-WITNESSING an event.
What I wanted to know is if anyone was ever said to have actually seen Jesus ascend from sheol back to the earth. Do you have any scriptures that show this happened? YES or NO?
I also await responses to these two points:
1. So, I'm still looking for some scriptural validation to support your “out of the blue” assumption that, in the middle of a teaching about how he came down from heaven, Jesus followed up this teaching by speaking of “ascending to where he was before”, meaning “from sheol back to the earth”.
2. So, I await an answer on why you think the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were clever enough to know he was speaking of COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, but you apparently are not.
peace,
mike
Well you see Mike, the problem is I cannot respond to your question, because you need to address it to someone who acknowledges that theri understanding is “out of the blue” and “moronic” in in origin.If you expect courteous answers from me, you will ask courteous questions of me.
I'll take your refusal to answer these direct scriptural questions as a failure to be able to in the first place.
mike
Hi Mike:
Please give me your understanding of the following scripture:
Quote John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,17:12) Mike; The reason the Jews could not understand Jesus' words is not because of any problem with clarity,
Start your post again with the correct premise, please.The Jews DID understand the words Jesus spoke. They CLEARLY understood that this “regular guy” was for some reason claiming he came down from heaven.
They just didn't know why he would say such a thing.
mike
Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,17:59) Hi Mike: Please give me your understanding of the following scripture:
Quote John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I would love to…………….immediately after you show me the scripture that prohibits the pre-existence of Jesus that I've been asking for.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,11:01) Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,17:59) Hi Mike: Please give me your understanding of the following scripture:
Quote John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I would love to…………….immediately after you show me the scripture that prohibits the pre-existence of Jesus that I've been asking for.
mike
Hi Mike:I already answered your questions pertaining to this, and apparently, you do not understand, and you do not want to answer the question that I posed through the scripture because it will show which of us is in error, and so, there is no need for me to continue this discussion with you.
I will just pray that God will give you revelation knowledge of the truth.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 18 2011,11:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,11:01) Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,17:59) Hi Mike: Please give me your understanding of the following scripture:
Quote John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I would love to…………….immediately after you show me the scripture that prohibits the pre-existence of Jesus that I've been asking for.
mike
Hi Mike:I already answered your questions pertaining to this, and apparently, you do not understand, and you do not want to answer the question that I posed through the scripture because it will show which of us is in error, and so, there is no need for me to continue this discussion with you.
I will just pray that God will give you revelation knowledge of the truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Who has the truth, you alone? Come on, it is you and Paladin who
want to ignore Truth…..IreneQuote (Baker @ April 18 2011,11:21) Quote (942767 @ April 18 2011,11:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,11:01) Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,17:59) Hi Mike: Please give me your understanding of the following scripture:
Quote John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I would love to…………….immediately after you show me the scripture that prohibits the pre-existence of Jesus that I've been asking for.
mike
Hi Mike:I already answered your questions pertaining to this, and apparently, you do not understand, and you do not want to answer the question that I posed through the scripture because it will show which of us is in error, and so, there is no need for me to continue this discussion with you.
I will just pray that God will give you revelation knowledge of the truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Who has the truth, you alone? Come on, it is you and Paladin who
want to ignore Truth…..Irene
Hi Irene:I will also pray for you, and if I am wrong in anything that I teach, I will and do ask God every day in my morning prayer routine to correct me. I certainly do not want to teach anything that is not His Word, and I do not want for you to to that either because we will all have to answer to God for what we teach.
Ultimately, if he confirms what I am teaching or what you are teaching with the same miracles and signs, that he did in the ministry of the Apostles, it will be Him who is stating who is correct in what they teach.
I know that Jesus exists now by the Holy Spirit of God my Father who dwells within me to testify to the truth regarding His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,10:57) Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,17:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,09:59) Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,13:38) That's o.k. Mike, none of your references say anything about “eye witness” either, because it is your standard that you have turned into a requirement, not scriptures.
Hi Paladin,Your post is the act of desparation. Acts 1:9 has the words “taken up before our very eyes”, which refers to people actually EYE-WITNESSING the ascension of Jesus. The actual Greek says “blepo autos” which means “themselves saw by use of the eye”.
What you've done is try to find any mention of “see” and “witness” in the same sentence, as if those two words in the same sentence would equate to someone EYE-WITNESSING an event.
What I wanted to know is if anyone was ever said to have actually seen Jesus ascend from sheol back to the earth. Do you have any scriptures that show this happened? YES or NO?
I also await responses to these two points:
1. So, I'm still looking for some scriptural validation to support your “out of the blue” assumption that, in the middle of a teaching about how he came down from heaven, Jesus followed up this teaching by speaking of “ascending to where he was before”, meaning “from sheol back to the earth”.
2. So, I await an answer on why you think the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were clever enough to know he was speaking of COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, but you apparently are not.
peace,
mike
Well you see Mike, the problem is I cannot respond to your question, because you need to address it to someone who acknowledges that theri understanding is “out of the blue” and “moronic” in in origin.If you expect courteous answers from me, you will ask courteous questions of me.
I'll take your refusal to answer these direct scriptural questions as a failure to be able to in the first place.
mike
You could. But then I would ask you to explain your application of rude words and derogatory remarks addressed to my posts when they are not called for by anything in any of my posts.Are you sure you want to persue that route?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,10:59) Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,17:12) Mike; The reason the Jews could not understand Jesus' words is not because of any problem with clarity,
Start your post again with the correct premise, please.The Jews DID understand the words Jesus spoke. They CLEARLY understood that this “regular guy” was for some reason claiming he came down from heaven.
They just didn't know why he would say such a thing.
mike
No. You can dictate the start of your [posts, Mike, I will not be so manipulated.Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,18:13) Hi Mike: I already answered your questions pertaining to this, and apparently, you do not understand,
No Marty,What you did was show scriptures that explained how Jesus came to be IN THE FLESH. Not one of those scriptures prohibits Jesus from a pre-existence before he came to be in the flesh.
But if that's all you have, then you're entitled to your belief. Look, I started individual threads a while back, each pertaining to just one pre-existent scripture. You started the discussion, but then bailed when you couldn't answer questions like “when did Jesus as a man EMPTY HIMSELF of this form of God he had as a man?”
And it seems some things will never change. You have made your “end run” here with a few scriptures that you think say Jesus didn't pre-exist. I've asked you to show me the exact words in those scriptures that tell you this. You can't, can you? Just like you can't answer the above question. Just like you can't give a good reason why Jesus isn't talking about heaven when he says he came down from heaven and implies he'll ascend to where he was before. The disciples SAW him ascend to “where he was before” with their own eyes for Pete's sake.
But I like you Marty. I hold nothing against you because I recognize that it is our flawed human nature that makes us so stubborn and fool-headed.
peace to you and yours,
mikeCan't answer the points, Paldin? I didn't think so. In fact I KNEW you couldn't, because scripture is on OUR side on this one, brother.
Irene, I think I broke his spirit. Well, not me personally, but the scriptures we've all posted.
Carry on, ma'am.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,13:22) Can't answer the points, Paldin? I didn't think so. In fact I KNEW you couldn't, because scripture is on OUR side on this one, brother. Irene, I think I broke his spirit. Well, not me personally, but the scriptures we've all posted.
Carry on, ma'am.
mike
Mike! I don't really want to brake anyone's Spirit, but if it is not of God, then yes. To interpret Scriptures to their view is wrong. Paladin and Marty, you don;t take Scriptures the way they are written. But interpret them to your view. And that I find not right.
Good if you are praying for the truth to come out, but Marty, if you continue to interpret them according what you want them to say, God will not show you….One thing I have learned from Georg, always ask for wisdom to see it according to how it is written, and not my way …not my will, but Gods will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Paladin @ April 18 2011,18:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,10:59) Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,17:12) Mike; The reason the Jews could not understand Jesus' words is not because of any problem with clarity,
Start your post again with the correct premise, please.The Jews DID understand the words Jesus spoke. They CLEARLY understood that this “regular guy” was for some reason claiming he came down from heaven.
They just didn't know why he would say such a thing.
mike
No. You can dictate the start of your [posts, Mike, I will not be so manipulated.
Paladinthere was no manipulation, just questions and answers and at the end you would not give a answer;
what I hate the most is the devil asumption “He said to the woman, “Did God really say,”? this is putting everything under question ,NO ?
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2011,04:10) Paladin, I am having some trouble understanding what your conclusion is. From what I understand the common Greek word “gennaō”, which you label gennaw, means sired. So flesh is sired by flesh and spirit is sired by spirit. So just as Jesus taught Nicodemus that a human being must be sired of both Spirit and water to enter the kingdom of heaven the Spirit of Jesus himself was sired in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God.
According to my understanding of Matthew 1:20, the body and flesh of Jesus miraculously came to be in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God, as the Spirit of Christ is God’s creative force.
Never the less I agree with the spirit of your understanding for the reason that Jesus never sinned even though tempted as is common to man, proving he was always sired of the spirit of righteousness and holiness.
According to Strong’s “gennaō” translated “sired”, “genos” translated “kindred” and “ginomai”, the later which Mike prefers the translation “was made”, are all related words.
This is definitely food for thought. I plan on getting back to this later, God willing.
edited to add punctuation and some words to make my meaning clearer.Paladin,
I am sorry for confusing you. I meant that Mike insisted that “was made” for the common Greek word “ginomai”. Strong’s states the words are related and I can see the relationship in their definitions. Neither of those is that important though the former was just a complaint of mine and so even more useless. I thought the later may come to something but your argument otherwise was convincing.
I agree that Jesus’ spirit was sired of God's Spirit and that Jesus’ body was sired from his mother’s flesh.
I believe that when Jesus spoke of coming from above he was speaking of his Spirit even as John is in 1 John 2:18-19 when he stated the false teachers who went out from them were not of them. Jesus is of God even though he was caused to exist within Mary’s womb and so did not come out from God though the Spirit of God both came out from God and is of God.
In a like manner Jesus told those who did not believe that they came from below, John 8:23-24.
Quote 1 John 2:18-19 18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.Quote John 8:23-24 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.Why I am interested in the common Greek word “ginomai” is because it is used to describe the relationship between the Logos and a human. I believe that John is teaching us that the Logus was joined to the human Jesus in verse 14 of Chapter 1 of the gospel of his name.
In 1 John 1:1-3 we are taught the Word was “phaneroō”, which is to say what has been hidden or unknown is made visible or known according to the Lexicon as searchgodstruth.org.
Quote 1 John 1:1-3 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.That is also what John 1 teaches us in verse 18.
Quote John 1:18 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Jesus teaches us that God is revealed in him because the Father is in him and he is in the Father. We know God is in Jesus through the Holy Spirit and thus it is reasonable to conclude that the Logos spoken of in John1 is speaking of the Spirit of Christ.
Quote John14:8-11 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.Note: All Scriptures from King James version of Scripture.
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