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Quote (t8 @ Mar. 01 2011,10:51) Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:55) Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
“to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers may be the same, the message is not.
A good point.Making the numbers say what you want it to say is not that hard. There are many variables that you can play with till you get a match.
Another person can say something completely contradictory using the same method.
Hi Paladin and T8,When you pause between words,
should we take that to mean something?God's Signature
The Bible(63) → AKJV Bible(74)יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)As I said before: Finding word structures to match opposing views does not change “Bible Truth”(117)
When someone 'lies' to you, do their lies diminish “The Truth” at all? 'THINK' ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY!“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,18:08) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 01 2011,10:51) Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:55) Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
“to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers may be the same, the message is not.
A good point.Making the numbers say what you want it to say is not that hard. There are many variables that you can play with till you get a match.
Another person can say something completely contradictory using the same method.
That's correct. But that is not the worst of the problem. When you consider a comparison between Hebresw alphabet, and Greek for example, the tenth letter in the Hebrew alphabet is “yod” and the eleventh is kaph; the tenth letter of the Greek alphabet is kappa, and the eleventh is lamda; as you can see, there is a 'slip' betweeen the alphabets. Now, when you translate the Hebrew into English, then apply the numerical system, you may get a message if you look long enough, but if you go to the Greek and translate it into englsih, there is no way you are going to get the same numerized message, as the letters do not match between the two translations. There is no way they can, assuming consistancy between the alphabets and the letter values, i.e., where thr 1st letter =1, 2nd letter = 2 etc. Before you get to the 10th letter, you have a disconnect between alphabets.Hebrew #10 is yod; Greek #10 is kappa; Hebrew #11 is kaph; Greek #11 is lamda; and there goes the consistancy so necessary for the scheme to have any meaning whatsoever.
It is a manmade scheme and should not be applied to God's word.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,19:14) All men are elohim in flesh.[Psalm 8:4-6] God is elohim, which as far as I have been able to research, has a meaning closer to “immortal” than “God;” though God is indeed much more than immortal, it is not because of the designation Elohim. The truth is, God is much more than Elohim, which is why he is not limited to that designation. He is also El Shaddai, which tells you much about God that elohim does not.
Hi Paladin,“The Bible”=63
ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) → Ēl Shăddīâ(63) → YHVH(63)
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,02:14)
Consider, your own point is misconstrued, because the
genitive is the case of possession, not the case of what the possesser is. It is form that belongs to God, it is not the form
“God.”
Hi Paladin,I agree, but that only confirms my point. “Form” belongs to God in this scripture. And in English, we would say “God's form” to convey this thought of possession. So, like the NWT says, Jesus was “existing in God's form”.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,02:14)
All men are elohim in flesh.[Psalm 8:4-6]
I don't agree with your understanding of this Psalm. First of all, the LXX has rendered “elohim” as “angels”, not “God” in this Psalm. The LXX, while not explicitly considered as “scripture inspired of God”, was nevertheless used by the early church fathers as the final say about scriptural discrepancies. And the LXX was quoted much more than the Hebrew text by Jesus, and the NT writers. Not to mention that the LXX is the reading quoted by the writer of Hebrews. And Hebrews, as far as I'm concerned, IS considered “scripture inspired of God”. And Hebrews 2:7 says “lower than angels”, not “lower than God”.I'd like to discuss my findings about “elohim” with you sometime, but that's another topic.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,02:14)
Remember, he was born to be king [John 18:37]; could have commanded angels [Mat 26:53]; but instead, emptied himself, washed the disciples feet [John 13:4-17]; and became obedient…
But it seems to me your timeline is askew. The time when Jesus said he could call 12 legions of angels down comes AFTER he washed the disciple's feet at the last supper, right?So at what exact point in Jesus' HUMAN existence do you claim that Jesus “emptied himself” of God's form, and took on a slave's form?
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,02:14)
Until I have further research showing it to be innappropriate, I would not contest it.
If you have not researched “anthropos” enough, then wouldn't you say your conviction about Phil 2 is a little premature?Paladin, there is a definite timeline in 2:6-7. It goes like this:
1. Jesus was existing in God's form.
2. THEN, Jesus emptied himself.
3. THEN, Jesus was made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.If Jesus already WAS a human being while he was in “God's form”, and those words only referred to the majestic persona he had as the foretold king, at which point in his life did he display this majestic persona; and at what point did he “empty himself” of it? And more importantly, at what point in his human existence would it have made sense to point out that he was “at that particular time”, made in the likeness of a man, or human being?
peace and love,
mikePaladin! I was reading your post to Mike again. Are you by any chance going by the philosophy of Rudolf Steiner????did you misspell anthrwpos it is not in our Random House Dictionary. But anthropological is. I am from Germany and found Rudolf Steiner interesting…..
I also question why you trying to understand what the mysteries of God is. Questioning about man or woman. I don't think that any man will ever understand the fullness of our Creator God. God made us in His image, it is not the flesh, it is our Spirit. Without it we could never communicate with God, through our Savior Jesus Christ. Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, the things prepared to them that love Him. I find it much more important to have a relationship with our God, then trying to figure out what God is. Many men have tried it in the past, and have not succeeded in doing so….
All that also has little to do with the preexisting of Jesus, unless you believe in a trinity…
you say you use the KJV of the bible, and mine does say in Phil. 2;5 “the form of God.”
Peace IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2011,11:32) Hi Paladin, Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,02:14)
All men are elohim in flesh.[Psalm 8:4-6]
I don't agree with your understanding of this Psalm. First of all, the LXX has rendered “elohim” as “angels”, not “God” in this Psalm. The LXX, while not explicitly considered as “scripture inspired of God”, was nevertheless used by the early church fathers as the final say about scriptural discrepancies. And the LXX was quoted much more than the Hebrew text by Jesus, and the NT writers. Not to mention that the LXX is the reading quoted by the writer of Hebrews. And Hebrews, as far as I'm concerned, IS considered “scripture inspired of God”. And Hebrews 2:7 says “lower than angels”, not “lower than God”.peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike and Paladin,The “AKJV Bible” has Psalm 8:5 rendered as “Angels” too,
do either of you consider the “AKJV Bible” to be inspired?Christ(77) = Glory(77)
Psalm 8:4-6 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory(77) and honor.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Ed,
I believe the words of scripture to be inspired of God…………..but not any particular translation in general.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2011,12:27) Hi Ed, I believe the words of scripture to be inspired of God…………..but not any particular translation in general.
mike
Hi Mike,That's like saying you believe God's words to be true,
but if they are translated (into another language) untrustworthy.You do understand my analogy; don't you?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,14:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2011,12:27) Hi Ed, I believe the words of scripture to be inspired of God…………..but not any particular translation in general.
mike
Hi Mike,That's like saying you believe God's words to be true,
but if they are translated (into another language) untrustworthy.You do understand my analogy; don't you?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Mike,Or like saying a witnesses testimony is unreliable if it differs from known facts.
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Baker @ Mar. 02 2011,10:03) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 01 2011,02:12) Paladin! I asked Georg, but He is not interested. When dealing with women, I find it more comfortable if the husband is involved in the study. It is not a necessary thing, just more comfortable for propriety's sake.
Quote Tell me , you said to Mike that He is right only in a small degree? Mike is correct in saying most translators provide the article. He is incorrect in assuming ir references a preexisting Jesus. Look at the tense of the verb “Being;” it is present active, and is speaking of Jesus the man according to Pauls admonition “Have this mind in you which is also in christ Jesus,” again present tense, only this time imperative.
Watch as Paul carries the present tense down through the thought – Who, in form of God [uparxwn – present active]
“being” – When the translators placed “was” – “which also was in christ Jesus” they messed up what Paul was saying. He is saying “Which also is in Christ Jesus” – Jesus still has this mind. “Was” is simply translators promoting a doctrine.Jesus was a man when he “emptied himself” according to the verb tenses (verse 1-5). He was born to be king, could have commanded angels, emptied himself of all the pomp and glory that went with that lofty hight, and washed the disciples feet. Paul is reminding the saints to have the same mind that is in Christ Jesus.
The use of present tense after using the imperative in verse one, locates the time of Paul's “present” as the time in which he is writing the epistle. This lasts throguh verse five, after which Paul switches to the aorist verb tense.
Jesus did not ascend to heaven to be God. He ascended to be at the right hand of God. He did not consider equality with God something that is his by right of [harpagmos] force.
All who think Paul is describing preexistant Jesus in heaven making the decision to humble himself to leave home to come to earth, missed entirely the significnce of the verb tenses in Paul's letter.
Quote And why do you want to study in the Old Test. 
??Because it is in the old testament that God establishes the impossibility of Jesus being co-equal God, with him through eternity.
Look at Jesus' own testimony – “Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monon [alone]: and yet egw eimi ouk monos , because the Father is with me.” [John 16:32]
Jesus said when he and his Father are together, they are ouk monos [not alone].
Now, watch as God declares who is God, and who is creating.
He introduced himself to Abraham in Gen 17:1 by saying –
EGW = Singular Personal Pronoun = “I”
EIMI = Singiular present Active verb = “AM”
HO = Singular Definite Article = “THE”
THEOS = Singular Noun = “GOD”Then in Exo 3:14 He introduced himself to Moses by saying –
EGW = Singular Personal Pronoun = “I”
EIMI = Singular Present Active Verb “AM”
HO = Singular Definite Article = “THE”
WN = Singular Present Active Participle = “BEING”God has established how many persons are God – He is singular-person God; He is singular-person Being.
Now watch God establish who created heaven and earth:
O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, su theos monos [thou art the God, even thou alone], of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.” [Isa 37:16]su is singular “thou.”
theos is singular “God.”
Monos is singular “alone.”So God established person-singular-God-alone created heaven and earth. [God ouk monos {not alone} if with Jesus]
“For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: su ei o`theos monos [thou art God alone].” [Psa 86:10]
[“ouk monos” {not alone} if with Jesus]su = singular pronoun “thou”
ei = 2nd person singular form of verb “TO BE” = “art”
theos = singular noun “God”
monos = singular adjective = “alone”“su ei auto kurios monos [Thou, even thou, art LORD alone]; su [thou] hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.” [Neh 9:6]
su = singular personal pronoun “thou”
ei = 2nd person singular form of verb “TO BE” = “art”
auto = singular personal pronoun = “even thou”
kurios = singular noun “Lord”
monos = singular adjective “alone.”
[“ouk monos” {not alone} if with Jesus]God established there is no other that is designated God, with [Deut 32:39];before [Isa 43:10], after [Isa 43:10], beside [isa 43:11; 45:6], or equal to Him [Isa 40:25; 46:5]
El Jehovah [Isa 42:5] prophesied through Isaiah [7:14], that his sone would be born of a virgin; Then he said this – “For who in the heaven can be compared unto Jehovah [the LORD]? who among the sons of El [the mighty] can be likened unto the LORD?
“Who among the sons of El can be compared to Jehovah?” Jesus is the son of el Jehovah, and El Jehovah said no son is equal with him.
And there is plenty of testimony in the new testament that shows Jesus is a man who knows he is not God equal with God. “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” [John 7:17]; ” But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God” [John 8:40]; and many many more.
Quote I grant you some Scriptures about the preexisting of Jesus is in the Old test. but most are in the New Test.
Like in Micah. 5:2 and Isaiah 11:1 and Isaiah 11:10….
Peace IreneI must go for now. If you ar einterested in studying this issue I will do so.
Go, with grace and hope and the promise of eternal life from Eden's garden to the cross; God always intended to give man hope.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 02 2011,21:14) He introduced himself to Moses by saying –
EGW = Singular Personal Pronoun = “I”
EIMI = Singular Present Active Verb “AM”
HO = Singular Definite Article = “THE”
WN = Singular Present Active Participle = “BEING”
Hi Paladin,God's Signature
The Bible(63) → AKJV Bible(74)יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)You're right, you do need to study the Old “Testament”(117) more,
because what you say is no-where to be found there!
You are quoting from the Septuagint Bible!YHVH(63) = will be(63)
יד(14). וַיֹּאמֶר אֱ־לֹהִים אֶל מֹשֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם:
Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be),”
and He said, “So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'”God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,11:09) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 01 2011,10:51) Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:55) Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
“to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers may be the same, the message is not.
A good point.Making the numbers say what you want it to say is not that hard. There are many variables that you can play with till you get a match.
Another person can say something completely contradictory using the same method.
Hi Paladin and T8,When you pause between words,
should we take that to mean something?God's Signature
The Bible(63) → AKJV Bible(74)יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)As I said before: Finding word structures to match opposing views does not change “Bible Truth”(117)
When someone 'lies' to you, do their lies diminish “The Truth” at all? 'THINK' ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY!“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)
well my friend, there must be something to “a pregnant pause.”Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,11:09) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 01 2011,10:51) Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:55) Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
“to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers may be the same, the message is not.
A good point.Making the numbers say what you want it to say is not that hard. There are many variables that you can play with till you get a match.
Another person can say something completely contradictory using the same method.
Hi Paladin and T8,When you pause between words,
should we take that to mean something?God's Signature
The Bible(63) → AKJV Bible(74)יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)As I said before: Finding word structures to match opposing views does not change “Bible Truth”(117)
When someone 'lies' to you, do their lies diminish “The Truth” at all? 'THINK' ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY!“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)
There is a different between a pause in speaking, and spaces between letters.Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,11:24) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,18:08) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 01 2011,10:51) Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:55) Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
“to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers may be the same, the message is not.
A good point.Making the numbers say what you want it to say is not that hard. There are many variables that you can play with till you get a match.
Another person can say something completely contradictory using the same method.
That's correct. But that is not the worst of the problem. When you consider a comparison between Hebresw alphabet, and Greek for example, the tenth letter in the Hebrew alphabet is “yod” and the eleventh is kaph; the tenth letter of the Greek alphabet is kappa, and the eleventh is lamda; as you can see, there is a 'slip' betweeen the alphabets. Now, when you translate the Hebrew into English, then apply the numerical system, you may get a message if you look long enough, but if you go to the Greek and translate it into englsih, there is no way you are going to get the same numerized message, as the letters do not match between the two translations. There is no way they can, assuming consistancy between the alphabets and the letter values, i.e., where thr 1st letter =1, 2nd letter = 2 etc. Before you get to the 10th letter, you have a disconnect between alphabets.Hebrew #10 is yod; Greek #10 is kappa; Hebrew #11 is kaph; Greek #11 is lamda; and there goes the consistancy so necessary for the scheme to have any meaning whatsoever.
It is a manmade scheme and should not be applied to God's word.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,19:14) All men are elohim in flesh.[Psalm 8:4-6] God is elohim, which as far as I have been able to research, has a meaning closer to “immortal” than “God;” though God is indeed much more than immortal, it is not because of the designation Elohim. The truth is, God is much more than Elohim, which is why he is not limited to that designation. He is also El Shaddai, which tells you much about God that elohim does not.
Hi Paladin,“The Bible”=63
ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) → Ēl Shăddīâ(63) → YHVH(63)
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
“I have said Ye are Elohim”
Elohim = 63, so we are equal to Jehovah?I don't think so.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 02 2011,22:27) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,11:24) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,18:08) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 01 2011,10:51) Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:55) Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
“to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers may be the same, the message is not.
A good point.Making the numbers say what you want it to say is not that hard. There are many variables that you can play with till you get a match.
Another person can say something completely contradictory using the same method.
That's correct. But that is not the worst of the problem. When you consider a comparison between Hebresw alphabet, and Greek for example, the tenth letter in the Hebrew alphabet is “yod” and the eleventh is kaph; the tenth letter of the Greek alphabet is kappa, and the eleventh is lamda; as you can see, there is a 'slip' betweeen the alphabets. Now, when you translate the Hebrew into English, then apply the numerical system, you may get a message if you look long enough, but if you go to the Greek and translate it into englsih, there is no way you are going to get the same numerized message, as the letters do not match between the two translations. There is no way they can, assuming consistancy between the alphabets and the letter values, i.e., where thr 1st letter =1, 2nd letter = 2 etc. Before you get to the 10th letter, you have a disconnect between alphabets.Hebrew #10 is yod; Greek #10 is kappa; Hebrew #11 is kaph; Greek #11 is lamda; and there goes the consistancy so necessary for the scheme to have any meaning whatsoever.
It is a manmade scheme and should not be applied to God's word.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,19:14) All men are elohim in flesh.[Psalm 8:4-6] God is elohim, which as far as I have been able to research, has a meaning closer to “immortal” than “God;” though God is indeed much more than immortal, it is not because of the designation Elohim. The truth is, God is much more than Elohim, which is why he is not limited to that designation. He is also El Shaddai, which tells you much about God that elohim does not.
Hi Paladin,“The Bible”=63
ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) → Ēl Shăddīâ(63) → YHVH(63)
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
“I have said Ye are Elohim”
Elohim = 63, so we are equal to Jehovah?I don't think so.
Hi Paladin,It doesn't matter what you 'think'! …What matters is what YHVH says!
(117)יהוה האלהים ↔ JEHOVAH Son(117)
Rev.3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I also overcame, and set down with my Father in his throne.John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,
that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2011,11:32) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,02:14)
All men are elohim in flesh.[Psalm 8:4-6]
I don't agree with your understanding of this Psalm. First of all, the LXX has rendered “elohim” as “angels”, not “God” in this Psalm.[/quote]All translation is subjective and is effected by the bias of the translators, and much translation is guesswork. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes not.
The reason for translating elohim “angels” is because it is quoted that way in Hebrews 2:7,9. But when Hebrews speaks of Jesus as “God” trinitarians insist it means co-equal with Jehovah God; when it may be a translation of Adown, or Elohim, or El, all of which have also beenied to men at some point or another.
Quote while not explicitly considered as “scripture inspired of God”, was nevertheless used by the early church fathers as the final say about scriptural discrepancies. If it was good enough for Jesus, and he said “Doth not the scriptures say…” or “It is written in the law…” or some such, just before he quoted the Septuagint, it is good enough for me. And I consider it not only inspired of God, but even the new testament writer said “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” [II Tim 3:16] So how can you pick and choose which scripture was inspired and which was not?
Quote e LXX was quoted much more than the Hebrew text by Jesus, and the NT writers. Not to mention that the LXX is the reading quoted by the writer of Hebrews. And Hebrews, as far as I'm concerned, IS considered “scripture inspired of God”. And Hebrews 2:7 says “lower than angels”, not “lower than God”. So does the Septuagint old testament. THAT is my point, Elohim is used of God, angels, and men. Men are Elohim, but that doesn't make them equal with God. And it doesn't make Jesus equal with God when God calls him “Elohim,” either.
Quote I'd like to discuss my findings about “elohim” with you sometime, but that's another topic. I would like very much to see what you have learned about Elohim. I am in a learning mode, always.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,02:14)
Remember, he was born to be king [John 18:37]; could have commanded angels [Mat 26:53]; but instead, emptied himself, washed the disciples feet [John 13:4-17]; and became obedient…Quote But it seems to me your timeline is askew. The time when Jesus said he could call 12 legions of angels down comes AFTER he washed the disciple's feet at the last supper, right? Makes no difference when you consider Paul is writing about both incidents long after the events took place, so the order is inconsequential.
Quote So at what exact point in Jesus' HUMAN existence do you claim that Jesus “emptied himself” of God's form, and took on a slave's form? Nothing is said about what exactly Jesus “emptied himself of.” It states precisely, “being in form of God, emptied himself…” nothing is said about emptying himself of God's form.
Look, my friend, Jesus, being the son of God, having been begotten by the Holy Spirit, is a form of God. He cannot empty himself of his own beginnings, nor can he change his own source. He can however, empty himself of all the pomp and circumstance of glory that was his by birthright (born to be king)(could have commanded angels) and take on the form of servitude only through serving, which he did by the washing of the disciples feet.
I do not claim this is the correct interpretation, I claim this is the interpretation that leaves no contradiction between scriptures and no contradiction between concepts provided by scriptures. Trinity doctrine leaves literally thousands of contradictions between scriptures and conceptual considerations throughout both testaments.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 01 2011,02:14)
Until I have further research showing it to be innappropriate, I would not contest it.
If you have not researched “anthropos” enough, then wouldn't you say your conviction about Phil 2 is a little premature?
[/quote]No. Did you not see my disclaimer? Did you fail to read my remark about further research? Did I not say “Until I have further research….. I would not contest it.”
Quote Paladin, there is a definite timeline in 2:6-7. It goes like this: 1. Jesus was existing in God's form.
2. THEN, Jesus emptied himself.
3. THEN, Jesus was made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.If Jesus already WAS a human being while he was in “God's form”, and those words only referred to the majestic persona he had as the foretold king, at which point in his life did he display this majestic persona; and at what point did he “empty himself” of it? And more importantly, at what point in his human existence would it have made sense to point out that he was “at that particular time”, made in the likeness of a man, or human being?
Well, you see Mike, that's how trinitarians deal with the issue. They invariably have to separate verse 5 and verse 6, because verse 5 shows Jesus the man “being in form of God.” So your “timeline” has to include the truth of the manhood of Jesus when dealing with his “being in form of God.”
As for specifics dealing with when he did this or that, why do you suppose God gave him over three years to deal with the issues? Because it entailed a learning process while he taught his disciples, and that took more than an instant application. How long did it take for him to wash the disciples feet? Twenty minutes? Thirty? An hour and forty-five minutes? who knows? I do know he washed the disciples feet and I do know he was more “king” than “servant” until the moment at which he emptied himself of the one, to take on the other. And he never left off “being in form
of God.”All men who are in Christ are “in form of God” as they become crucified with Christ (in whom God dwells), so that they no longer live, but Christ dwells in us.[Gal 2:20]; and “until Christ be formed” in them.[Gal 4:19] So you see mike, we change this vile form into a form acceptable and fit for God himself to inhabit, – “but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.[Rom 12:2]
“Transformed” is a word used to describe how Jesus stood in the presence of the disciples upon one occasion (the transformation) and we are to be transformed by being changed into another form through the complete renovation of our minds, to fit us for the master's use, and the indwelling of God himself.
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Transfigured [metemorphwthee = indicative aorist passive form of metamorphow] and transformed [metamorphousthe is the imperative present passive form of metamorphow] – It is the same proccess. I wondered for a long time why Jesus was “transfigured” – until I realized he was giving us another example of what we could be if we allow him to help us be our best. We also can be “transfigured” when Christ is formed in us and God dwells in us.
Quote peace and love, mike And hope and grace!
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 02 2011,23:27) I am in a learning mode, always.
Hi Paladin,Always? …I question this?
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,23:24) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,11:24) Hi Paladin, It doesn't matter what you 'think'! …What matters is what YHVH says!
(117)יהוה האלהים ↔ JEHOVAH Son(117)
You may be right. show me where you find “Jehovah son = 117” in scripture and you might have a convert.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,23:38) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 02 2011,23:27) I am in a learning mode, always.
Hi Paladin,Always? …I question this?
o.k.What was the question?
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 02 2011,23:43) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,23:24) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,11:24) Hi Paladin, It doesn't matter what you 'think'! …What matters is what YHVH says!
(117)יהוה האלהים ↔ JEHOVAH Son(117)
You may be right. show me where you find “Jehovah son = 117” in scripture and you might have a convert.
Hi Paladin,Rev.21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I(YHVH=63) “will be”(63) his God,
and he shall be MY SON.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Paladin @ Mar. 02 2011,23:44) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,23:38) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 02 2011,23:27) I am in a learning mode, always.
Hi Paladin,Always? …I question this?
o.k.What was the question?
Always in a learning mode?
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