Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

Participant

Rebellman,

As threads get longer conversations tend to stray. Currently we are discussing what is actually being taught about Jesus in Colossians 1. Other scripture, insights gained from the common Greek language, and other tools to aid understanding are used in the conversation.

I believe Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all manifestations of the very word that comes out of the mouth of God.

Manifestation is a synonym of incarnation.

October 22, 2011 at 2:06 am#261101

Participant

Actually “manifestation” and “incarnation” are not synonyms. Incarnation is defined as: A person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality: “Rama was Vishnu's incarnation on earth”, and manifestation is defined as: 1. An event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, esp. a theory or an abstract idea: “manifestations of global warming”. 2. The action or fact of showing something in such a way: “the manifestation of anxiety”. “Jesus” is the incarnation of the Word, not God as a whole as would be the case if “Jesus” were the manifestation of God. Maybe the difference is subtle, but nevertheless they are not synonyms.

I also cannot agree that God is a manifestation of himself by way of the Word, which was God and is now the man “Jesus.” God is God in all of his attributes, the Holy Spirit is a “manifestation” of God (that essence of God that indwells the believer) and Jesus is the incarnation of the Word as the “only begotten of the Father” (a wholly and totally separate entity from God).

God is a complete, self-determined entity, as is the Son, they are not and cannot be the same entity for various reasons it would take to long to address here. However, the Holy Spirit is not a separate, self-determined entity. It is that essence or unction that God bestows upon the believer, enabling him (the believer) to do the will of God. There is no personality with the Holy Spirit, regardless of the passages that seem to qualify it as such. Off the top of my head I can't remember the passage, but I will endeavor to find it if you'd like to see the evidence. The passage I speak of is in one of the Gospels and the gender of the Holy Spirit is translated in the KJV (and other translations) as “he” (àùtós [this is an approximation of the Greek as I don't have the ability to render Greek letters]), but when the Greek mss are consulted the gender is “it” (àútó). The NT writers, who knew the Greek language like you and I know English, used the neuter (it) when referring the the Holy Spirit, therefore it becomes clear that they did not consider the Holy Spirit a person. For a more comprehensive study of this see http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/questions/holyspiritpronouns.htm. You'll either have to copy and paste this URL or click on the link on the page that pops up from this link, I don't know why this doesn't go straight to the webpage.

October 22, 2011 at 2:43 am#261102

Participant

rebellman

Quote

the Holy Spirit is a “manifestation” of God (that essence of God that indwells the believer)

what are you saying or mean when you say;that essence of God that indwells the believer

the only thing I know that dwells in people and a mean true believers and that DOES NOT DWELL IN THE SINNERS is the will of God ,

God his spirit and what God does or say his his will ,God does not do small talk like men does ,so we as men we either work with God or against God their is no half / half situation.(or in men only for a short while to chose )

Pierre

October 22, 2011 at 2:54 am#261103

Participant

Kerwin

Quote

Quote
I have brought you glory on earth,(what is the glory that Christ brought on earth?)

Jn 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

According to the best fitting definition I read from Strong’s, Jesus’ actions have been causing “the dignity and worth of God to become manifest and acknowledged” even on earth.

I do not understand this ; “the dignity and worth of God to become manifest and acknowledged” it does not make sens to me that is ,

Quote

uote
how is it that “ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER”

According to Strong’s “All things are “to put together, unite parts into one whole”

you see I do not want to know what strong thinks ,I want to know what you understand in scriptures ,if I would be interested in Strong opinion I would get it from him,(book)

but so you do not know what it means ,this happen when people only see one verse at the time ,this is why I quote you Col1;13 t0 23,if you pay attention to what Paul says he says what ALL THINGS ARE ,but you do not want to believe Paul but I guess you believe STRONG opinion

Pierre

October 22, 2011 at 6:12 am#261107

Participant

Pierre

What I meant by “essence” is the power of God that dwells in the believer. It is the unction (unction is defined as: The action of anointing someone with oil or ointment as a religious rite or as a symbol of investiture as a monarch.) from God. Let me go back a minute. I said in another post that contrary to popular belief, Christ is not “Jesus'” last name, it is a title, but more than a title. The words “Christ” (Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning “the anointed one”) and “Messiah” (the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ [Māšîaḥ], usually transliterated into English as Messiah) both mean “the anointed one.” This anointing (unction) comes by the Holy Spirit and was bestowed upon “Jesus” at his baptism, prior to that time he was the Son of God, but not the Christ. There are many, many passages that talk about the Spirit of God and Christ dwelling in or being in you. This is the anointing of God. See Matt. 3:16, Mark 1:10, and John 1:32 for the anointing of “Jesus.” 1 Co 2:9-16 (KJV) “[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. [10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” Take close note of the bold passages in verses 12, 13 and 16. In 12 we see that we have received a spirit from God, this is that anointing which gives us the ability to (among other things) understand the Word of God. In 13 we see that it is this indwelling spirit that teaches, and in 16 Paul tells us that we have the mind of Christ. This last passage is of special significance, Paul is not saying here that some how “Jesus'” brain has been stuffed into our heads, but rather that we have an anointed mind. We are, if you can receive it, literally “Christ” the anointed one, or in this case, ones, all of us sons and daughters of God, with the same rights and privileges as “Jesus.”

The “will of God” is not something that can dwell anywhere. God's will is not a “thing” but rather a faculty (a function of the mind) and is defined thus: The faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action: “she has an iron will”.

I hope this was more clear than mud, this is one of those things that is just very difficult to define.

October 22, 2011 at 7:42 pm#261123

Participant

Quote (rebellman @ Oct. 22 2011,08:06)

Rebellman,

Here is the thesaurus entry I used from thesaurus.com.

Quote

Main Entry:

incarnation

Part of Speech: noun

Definition: personification

Synonyms: embodiment, epitome, incorporation, manifestation

Here is the particular definition from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary I am referring to.

Quote

b (2) : a perceptible, outward, or visible expression.

To my eyes that is a paraphrase of the following definition or incarnation from your source.

Quote

2. The action or fact of showing something in such a way: “the manifestation of anxiety”.

In other words Jesus, God, and the Spirit of God personalize the impersonal utterance of God.

I also found this entry for embody at thesaurus.com interesting at it mentions incarnate, manifest, personify, and even mirror. The later I mention because it reflects image as in Jesus is the image of God and the exact reflection of his glory.

Quote

Main Entry: embody
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: represent; materialize
Synonyms: actualize, complete, concretize, demonstrate, emblematize, epitomize, evince, exemplify, exhibit, express, exteriorize, externalize, hypostatize, illustrate, incarnate, incorporate, manifest, mirror, objectify, personalize, personify, realize, reify, show, stand for, substantiate, symbolize, typify .

October 22, 2011 at 9:24 pm#261129

Participant

Pierre,

Quote

you see I do not want to know what strong thinks ,I want to know what you understand in scriptures ,if I would be interested in Strong opinion I would get it from him,(book)

I appealed to the authority of Strong’s definition that agrees with what has been revealed to me. I did this since Strong’s has the advantage over me in knowing the definitions of the common Greek words behind the English words which I am seeking both to understand and to share that insight with others.

Quote

I do not understand this; “the dignity and worth of God to become manifest and acknowledged” it does not make sense to me that is .

That is a definition of the common Greek word that is translated to glory in John 17:4. Jesus revealed God’s value to the Hebrew people dwelling in Samaria, Judea, Galilee, Perea, and the Decapolis by his teachings, actions, and wonders God did through him. Some of the peoples of all of those regions then acknowledged God’s excellence by becoming Jesus’ disciples.

Quote

but so you do not know what it means ,this happen when people only see one verse at the time ,this is why I quote you Col1;13 t0 23,

I am speaking of the ideas behind the words as words can be deceptive to those that do understand. Those ideas weave together to form a consistent doctrine which is why I used Jesus words in John 17 to seek to understand the ideas expressed in the second clause of Colossians 1:17. If you understand the ideas expressed in and purpose of Colossians 1:17 then it will aid you to understand the surrounding verses and the whole teachings of Jesus.

In Colossians 1:17 I have pointed out how Paul teaches the all things are in Christ and unified with Christ just as he asked that the believers would come to believe in John 17:23. The all things Paul has been teaching of in Colossians 1:17 is the same all things that he is teaching of in Colossians 1:16. You previously asked what “all things” as used in Colossians 1:17 meant and I will point at the words of Strong’s who has more understanding of the Greek language than either you or me.

Quote

1.individually
a.each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2.collectively
a.some of all types

Quote

Ephesians 6:12
New International Version (NIV)

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Do you believe that the rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” hold together in Jesus the Anointed?

October 22, 2011 at 10:15 pm#261131

Participant

kerwin

Quote

Quote
but so you do not know what it means ,this happen when people only see one verse at the time ,this is why I quote you Col1;13 t0 23,

see you do it again you cut Paul letter in pieces extract what is convenient to you and scrap the rest ,that is why you do not understand scriptures ,not that it is not available to you to understand it ,it is your concept to Gods word what is wrong ,you do not believe in it the way it is written, this means if you where in Paul presence and listen to his talk you would have not understand a thing ,,you may say I could have ask question like ?“?? but you do not ask

Quote

Do you believe that the rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” hold together in Jesus the Anointed?

yes I do ,you see kerwin the entire process of bringing back men to God and save him from sin,his Christ works this including the cleansing of all creation and the total destruction of the oppressor and anything that stands in the way of Gods will.

of cause the last thing being dead

Pierre

October 22, 2011 at 10:33 pm#261133

Participant

rebellman

Quote

you are definitively wrong in your understanding of Gods will ,you looking from men view point.

Ps 103:1 Praise the LORD, O my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
Ps 103:2 Praise the LORD, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits—
Ps 103:3 who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
Ps 103:4 who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
Ps 103:5 who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.

Ps 103:6 The LORD works righteousness
and justice for all the oppressed.

Ps 103:7 He made known his ways to Moses,
his deeds to the people of Israel:
Ps 103:8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
Ps 103:9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
Ps 103:10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
Ps 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
Ps 103:12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Ps 103:13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;
Ps 103:14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
Ps 103:15 As for man, his days are like grass,
he flourishes like a flower of the field;
Ps 103:16 the wind blows over it and it is gone,
and its place remembers it no more.
Ps 103:17 But from everlasting to everlasting
the LORD'S love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children’s children—
Ps 103:18 with those who keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.

Ps 103:19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven,
and his kingdom rules over all.

Ps 103:20 Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
Ps 103:21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Ps 103:22 Praise the LORD, all his works
everywhere in his dominion.

Praise the LORD, O my soul.

is not something that can dwell anywhere

do you know that all what we ever have seen is Gods will in motion and going towards the perfection of all things under Christ ,

all what Christ has preached are the will of God ,it is Gods will that men shall live trough Christ ,so if you are becoming a christian you are now applying to yourself the will of God by doing this you now are blessed because God always blessed what is his own,if a apple grows it is because Gods will has made it to do so ,

the spirit of God is his will what we all can follow and obey to it , physically and spiritually ,and so become submitted to God ; Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Jas 4:9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

Quote

But we have the mind of Christ.

how can we ,unless we submit to God

Pierre

October 23, 2011 at 8:32 am#261137

Participant

Pierre,

Quote

see you do it again you cut Paul letter in pieces extract what is convenient to you and scrap the rest ,that is why you do not understand scriptures ,not that it is not available to you to understand it ,it is your concept to God’s word what is wrong ,you do not believe in it the way it is written, this means if you where in Paul presence and listen to his talk you would have not understand a thing ,,you may say I could have ask question like ?”?? but you do not ask

You accuse me of cutting Scripture to pieces even as I quote various passages to reveal how the whole gospel holds together as one. I do that instead of using scriptures to add to the gospel of Christ and you would be wise to do the same.

If you can see that “all things” is Colossians 1:17 is speak of all things that are being brought into unity with the Holy Spirit then I believe you will come to understand that they are the same all things being spoken of in Colossians 1:16 just as I have been pointing out.

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Do you believe that the rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” hold together in Jesus the Anointed?

of cause the last thing being dead

The words “Hold together does” not mean having authority over though Jesus does indeed have authority over those who are in unity of faith.

Here are the four definitions that Strong’s gives or the common Greek word translated to hold together in the NIV.

Quote

1.to place together, to set in the same place,to bring or band together
a.to stand with (or near)
2.to set one with another
a.by way of presenting or introducing him
b.to comprehend
3.to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing
a.to show, prove, establish, exhibit
4.to put together, unite parts into one whole
a.to be composed of, consist

The fourth one best fits what has been revealed to me about Colossians 1:17 and that understanding is also echoes in:

Quote

John 17:23
New International Version (NIV)

23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

and

Quote

Ephesians 1:10
New International Version (NIV)

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

The rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are not united with Jesus Christ as nothing you united with him are declared by God to be of this dark world or of evil.

Which of the four definitions, if any, support your understanding?

October 23, 2011 at 3:39 pm#261149

Participant

Pierre

What language do you actually speak, that is what is your first language, because it certainly is not English as it is painfully clear that you do not understand English even a little bit or else you would say such completely assinine things.

Quote

Ps 103:21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

How is doing, dwelling?!?

Please take the sage's advice and shut up, for it is better to be quite and seem a fool, than to speak and prove it!

October 23, 2011 at 3:54 pm#261152

mikeboll64

Blocked

Bump for Kerwin:

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2011,23:55)

My answer was in the form of explaining to you how God being the Maker of all things fit the context of Ecclesiastes 11:1-6.

Let's see if you're right:

1 Ship your grain across the sea; after many days you may receive a return.
What does verse 1 have to do with the act of creation?

2 Invest in seven ventures, yes, in eight; you do not know what disaster may come upon the land.
How does verse 2 discuss the act of creation?

3 If clouds are full of water, they pour rain on the earth. Whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there it will lie.
And verse 3?

4 Whoever watches the wind will not plant; whoever looks at the clouds will not reap.
How about verse 4? What does this have to do with the act of creation?

5 As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother’s womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.
How about this one? Does verse 5 speak of the act of creation? Or does “Maker of all things” refer ONLY to God making bodies in a mother's womb? (Oh, that's right. You already said “all things” literally means “ALL things”, right?)

6 Sow your seed in the morning, and at evening let your hands not be idle, for you do not know which will succeed, whether this or that, or whether both will do equally well.
And finally, how does verse 6 refer to the act of creation?

I anxiously await your insight into how ANY of these verses concern the act of God creating the heavens, the earth, and ALL things in them.

(Acts 4:24 and Revelation 4:11 are soon to follow, Kerwin. I hope you are equally prepared to show how the “internally consistent teaching” in those chapters center around “the act of creation”.)

peace,
mike

October 23, 2011 at 4:01 pm#261153

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 18 2011,19:56)

Mike,

Quote

No, we're not. Paul not only says “ALL things” once, but TWICE. There is no mention of “only new things”. So to imply that is what is meant is to write your own version of 1:16.

Nonsense!

You are contradicting the very idea of only believers dwelling in Christ Jesus with the teaching you hold to.

I find such a teaching unclean.

Why would Jesus ask God that believers would come to be in him if they were already in him as you seem to claim Colossians 1:17 teaches.

I on the other hand am convinced that Colossians 1:17 testifies that Jesus' prayer in John 17 was answered by God.

Kerwin,

You posted mish-mash. Col 1:16 says that ALL THINGS (up until the point Paul wrote this verse) had ALREADY BEEN created through Jesus.

This thought has nothing to do with people coming to be in God and Jesus – or already being in God and Jesus. The thought has to do with the creation of all things. And Paul CLEARLY states, not once, but TWICE, that ALL THINGS were created through Jesus.

Believe the God-inspired words of scripture – or don't. The choice is yours.

mike

October 23, 2011 at 5:10 pm#261157

Participant

Quote (rebellman @ Oct. 24 2011,09:39)

Pierre

Quote

Ps 103:21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

How is doing, dwelling?!?

Please take the sage's advice and shut up, for it is better to be quite and seem a fool, than to speak and prove it!

rebellman

dwell·ing (dwlng)
n.
A place to live in; an abode.

you his servants who do his will.

tell me what is dwelling in a servant that obey his master

and as far of your comment regarding your wisdom between you and I it will be done.

Pierre

October 23, 2011 at 5:16 pm#261159

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2011,02:32)

Pierre,

Quote

see you do it again you cut Paul letter in pieces extract what is convenient to you and scrap the rest ,that is why you do not understand scriptures ,not that it is not available to you to understand it ,it is your concept to God’s word what is wrong ,you do not believe in it the way it is written, this means if you where in Paul presence and listen to his talk you would have not understand a thing ,,you may say I could have ask question like ?”?? but you do not ask

Quote

Do you believe that the rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” hold together in Jesus the Anointed?

of cause the last thing being dead

The words “Hold together does” not mean having authority over though Jesus does indeed have authority over those who are in unity of faith.

Here are the four definitions that Strong’s gives or the common Greek word translated to hold together in the NIV.

Quote

The fourth one best fits what has been revealed to me about Colossians 1:17 and that understanding is also echoes in:

Quote

John 17:23
New International Version (NIV)

23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

and

Quote

Ephesians 1:10
New International Version (NIV)

Which of the four definitions, if any, support your understanding?

kerwin

I have answered that question already to you but ,strong'S is stronger than scriptures so follow strong'S interpretation

if that is what make sens to you go for it

Pierre

October 23, 2011 at 6:15 pm#261167

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 23 2011,23:16)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2011,02:32)

Pierre,

Quote

see you do it again you cut Paul letter in pieces extract what is convenient to you and scrap the rest ,that is why you do not understand scriptures ,not that it is not available to you to understand it ,it is your concept to God’s word what is wrong ,you do not believe in it the way it is written, this means if you where in Paul presence and listen to his talk you would have not understand a thing ,,you may say I could have ask question like ?”?? but you do not ask

Quote

Do you believe that the rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” hold together in Jesus the Anointed?

of cause the last thing being dead

The words “Hold together does” not mean having authority over though Jesus does indeed have authority over those who are in unity of faith.

Here are the four definitions that Strong’s gives or the common Greek word translated to hold together in the NIV.

Quote

The fourth one best fits what has been revealed to me about Colossians 1:17 and that understanding is also echoes in:

Quote

John 17:23
New International Version (NIV)

23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

and

Quote

Ephesians 1:10
New International Version (NIV)

Which of the four definitions, if any, support your understanding?

kerwin

I have answered that question already to you but ,strong'S is stronger than scriptures so follow strong'S interpretation

if that is what make sens to you go for it

Pierre

Pierre,

Then please be patient with my limited comprehension as I addressed what perceived that you were stating. I also pointed out that it did not match up to the 4 definitions that Strong's gives for the common Greek words translated to “hold together in Colossians 1:17.

Since I believe I correctly perceive what those definitions mean could you please explain which one supports your understanding. Thank you!

October 23, 2011 at 8:35 pm#261170

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2011,22:01)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 18 2011,19:56)

Mike,

Quote

No, we're not. Paul not only says “ALL things” once, but TWICE. There is no mention of “only new things”. So to imply that is what is meant is to write your own version of 1:16.

Nonsense!

You are contradicting the very idea of only believers dwelling in Christ Jesus with the teaching you hold to.

I find such a teaching unclean.

Why would Jesus ask God that believers would come to be in him if they were already in him as you seem to claim Colossians 1:17 teaches.

I on the other hand am convinced that Colossians 1:17 testifies that Jesus' prayer in John 17 was answered by God.

Kerwin,

You posted mish-mash. Col 1:16 says that ALL THINGS (up until the point Paul wrote this verse) had ALREADY BEEN created through Jesus.

Believe the God-inspired words of scripture – or don't. The choice is yours.

mike

Mike,

Quote

Believe the God-inspired words of scripture – or don't. The choice is yours.

You are the one that chooses not to believe the Word of God as you deny the mystery of God’s “will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ”, Ephesians 1:3-10(NIV), by your teaching that all things of the old creation were originally created in him.

The Spirit of truth should instruct you that since all things are being brought into unity to God by and through Jesus then they are not already in unity in him as you seem to claim Colossians 1:17 states; unless you like Pierre want to debate with the meaning Strong’s gives for the word translated to “consist” in the KJV or the fact that believers are part of all things.

Here are the four definitions that Strong’s gives or the common Greek word translated to “consist” in the KJV.

Quote

1.to place together, to set in the same place, to bring or band together
a.to stand with (or near)
2.to set one with another
a.by way of presenting or introducing him
b.to comprehend
3.to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing
a.to show, prove, establish, exhibit
4.to put together, unite parts into one whole
a.to be composed of, consist

Please notice that the words “all things” are in both the NIV and KJV translations of Ephesians 1:10 is translated from the same common Greek word that is also translated to “all things” in both Colossians 1:16 and 17. This is what Strong’s state the possible definitions of that word are.

Quote

1.individually
a.each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2.collectively
a.some of all types

Being as Paul is teaching the same gospel in Colossians 1:16-17 that he has been teaching in Ephesians 1:10 and he also speaks of all things that are unified in Christ, in Colossians 1:17, just as he speaks of all things that are being unified in all things that are being unified in Christ, in Ephesians 1:10.

According to what is written in Paul’s letter to the Ephesians he and they were “ktizo” in Christ, Ephesians 2:10 and Jesus “ktizo” a consolidated race of mankind by uniting them with God, Ephesians 2:15. He did this by “ktizo” a new man that is like God in true righteousness and holiness. So these scriptures testify that the new man is created by Jesus and in just as Colossians 1:16-17 declares for the new man is part of all things that are unified in Christ for it is also written that believers are a kind of first fruits of God’s “ktisma”, a word who’s origins is “ktizo”, James 1:18.

Why do you, by your teachings, deny that the new mankind is created by and in Christ and that the new man is a kind of first fruits of all things created new?

Now to the first clause of Colossians 1:15. Jesus and God are manifestations, incarnations, personifications, mirrors, images etc, of the teachings of God and so they are also manifestations, incarnations, personifications, mirrors, images, etc. of each other.

The second instructs us that Jesus is the first born of “all things” “ktisis”, another word whose root is ktizo.

You already acknowledge that God calls David firstborn of all kings on earth because God placed him over them so it should not be difficult that Jesus is also firstborn of all things in heaven and on earth because God placed him over them.

Why do your teachings obscure that Jesus is the one God placed over all things he created whether in heaven or one earth?

Note: I have limited time to cover what there is to cover and am in conversation with a number of separate individuals. Those conversations are related and therefore some points may be covered in those conversation that I do not cover in yours or that I cover fewer and or other aspects of in my conversation with you. It may aid you to follow my reasoning by reading them. I also address things as am led to assign them priorities and therefore I will most likely not be addressing some of your posts or points within them or others.

October 24, 2011 at 12:00 am#261176

Participant

Kerwin

I thought I understood English (I've spoken it all my life and I got straight A's in English classes in school), but if you are speaking English, I guess I'm wrong. Because I can't seem to decipher your posts, I may be way off base here, but the one thing that keeps popping up in your posts seems to be that whatever it is you're saying is said to support your belief that Jesus is at this time God. But, because I don't understand your posts, I don't know what you base this belief on. Nevertheless, such a belief must be in error, because of what God needed to accomplish through the death of Jesus. Follows is from my post in “Preexitence (part 2)”:

Quote

So, how is God going to do this. Since the penalty was death, a death is required to satisfy justice. But, God can't die! (God's omnipotence notwithstanding, as by his own rules, God cannot do anything that is contrary to his nature – he can't lie, he can't change what he is and he can't die.) So, what is he to do? See the story of Abraham and Isacc. God will personally make the sacrifice to atone for Adam's transgression (that's how much he loves us), but he cannot do this personally, because even if it were possible for God to die, if he did die, at that precise instant everything would cease to exist. So, enter the Son. God chose to sacrafice a like thing to Adam; Adam is a created son, Jesus issues from God's being (the only begotten of the Father). It is necessary for Jesus to issue from God's being for two principle reasons: 1) the sacrifice must be both perfect and holy; and 2) it must be a thing that God personally gives up (sacrifices). So, God takes the thing most dear to him, his Word, physically separates it from himself and causes it to become a human being. Now enter Mary, Jesus' mother. Because Jesus must be human, one man standing in the place of another man, he can't just wander in out of the desert, he has to be connected directly so that mankind will know that this is that sacrifice that God has made. The virgin birth is essentially a by product of this, because Jesus is a new creation and cannot, by definition, actually partake of his mother's flesh, lest it impart man's fallen nature.

Now, regardless of where the man Jesus came from or what stuff he was made of, he absolutely must be a separate entity from his Father for a large number of reasons, but primarily so that he can be something that God actually gives up; if he is in any way still God and God can't die, then the death of Jesus is a sham and Jesus must die in order to satisfy the penalty (It may or may not be worthy of note that in any religion where God is said to have incarnated, when he leaves he just goes away, he does not die). Now, in order for it to be proven that Jesus is his Father's son, he must be enabled to do those things that the Father can do, so Jesus is anonted (made Christ) by receiving God's Spirit which empowers him.

Any passage that can be presented to prove anything else must be taken out of context and therefore cannot be proof. The entire act of God saving mankind hinges on the Father and the Son being separate entities (individuals), because the Son must die and this is something the Father cannot do.

If this isn't your ultimate point, then I apologise and I will shut up, because if this isn't your point, I don't have an inkling of a clue as to what your point actually is.

October 24, 2011 at 12:16 am#261177

Participant

Kerwin

Quote

Pierre,

Since I believe I correctly perceive what those definitions mean could you please explain which one supports your understanding. Thank you!

you remember our discussion over a year ago I think about the logic ?? you remember telling you that as long as you follow men 's logic you will not come to the godly understanding of scriptures ,you pay to much attention to men in their explanation of what is what and who is who.

get all your information from the scriptures,

ask yourself who is Christ ;he is the son of God ,now when did he became the son of his father ?? was it when he became a man ?? if so what make you think that any man can be the ONLY begotten son of God ?? see I made the word ONLY son ;if it is at his birth as a man ,this would not be true;because Adam was ahead of him their right?? and also the angels where called the sons of God,,and also we have to consider that NO man can save anyone not even himself.an other question would God make a half breed ?
NO, other wise he would have been a nephylim (giant)right ,
now as you have said before “all is possible with God ” Christ own words so we have to add to that WHY ?reason ??could God not destroy all the surface of the earth at the time of Noah ?? “all is possible with God ”

now could not God destroy Israel at the time of Babylon ? “all is possible with God ” why did not God made final at Abraham times or at David time,or any other time or now in our time ?

those are reasons ,and answers are found in scriptures not from men interpretation but from Gods word ,in those scriptures lays the answers,

so when scriptures says one thing do not change it ,according to this or that ,or to strong's or Brown's or;;;;;; but according to Gods word,and believe in the words that God has spoken ,if you do not understand something just for the moment pass on it it will come to you from Gods word while you searching other things ,Gods purpose is to save you ,and Christ is the living prove of this.

when you read the gospels or the letters of the apostles think that you are sitting across of him speaking ,this will help to understand what they meant.

as for Christ the truth is that he became the son of God as the first of all that was created in other words Christ (the word of God ) was the first creation that God created and so the only one begotten by God ,

in this way it may be easier to understand why everything is holding together by and in him ,see it like a president CEO ,is it not by him and in him that the controls are ??

when a problem is developed at any level below him (only the owner is above him) he as to solve it but within the powers that allow him to do it ,and so Christ the WORD of God did what has to be done ,came down became like one of us give up his man like live to save men creation and now, since this allows him to receive all the power needed he using it to bring all men to God clean up wickedness and soon will built new heaven ,new earth,and destroy dead. (in a nut shell)

Pierre

October 24, 2011 at 1:43 am#261179