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Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2011,05:26) KERWIN Quote if you believe Jesus is King IS BEING THE SON LESS THAN BEING KING
Pierre,Was Solomon’s roll as David’s preeminent son less than his role as king or was he David’s preeminent son because David appointed him the king to follow him?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2011,08:14)
Mike……..Well now that you have admitted the FATHER was (IN) Jesus , lets proceed to the next two questions…………..
Yes Gene, let's do. We can start with the two points from page 289 that you ignored:1. Scripture doesn't say “the Word came to be IN someone who was flesh”. It says “the Word BECAME flesh”.
2. The Logos that BECAME flesh had the glory of God's only begotten. Why would God not have His own glory, but instead the glory as of an only begotten OF God?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2011,08:14)
so the Logos who was God never became flesh (IT) came to be (IN) the flesh man Jesus.
Your argument is with John and the words he wrote then, not me.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2011,08:14)
Had you understood what Spirit is this would not be a problem for you. Spirit does not have all kinds of meanings as you presume they do.
I'm sorry Gene, but you are simply wrong about this.Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit, ghostFrom pneo; a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit — ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.
Gene, you have posted the words “You just don't understand what spirit is” about 1000 times now. But we DO understand that “mental disposition” (what you call INTELLECT) is ONE of the many meanings of “spirit”. It is YOU who won't acknowledge that “spirit” has many OTHER meanings in scripture, including “wind, breath, angel/demon”.
Ask your friend Paladin, since you don't trust the scholars.
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2011,05:31) Kerwin Quote I hear your opinion that I am mixing two things but do not know what things you believe I am mixing when I site scripture passages that instruct us that God employs his Spirit through and by his Son to create a spirit in us that is like his in true holiness and righteousness. His Spirit teaches and trains us how to use the power of God to obtain that righteousness just as Mosses used the power of God to split the Red Sea. God employs his Spirit through and by his Son to create a spirit in us this I do not understand ,unless you tell me what is Gods spirit and how a spirit is created in us
?this is be on my humble understanding
Pierre,God's Spirit is both his creative force and the seat of his character and so it conformed to the image of his Son who is the image of God just as it is written.
Quote Romans 8
New International Version (NIV)29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
In this way we are renewed.
Titus 3:5
Quote New International Version (NIV) 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Oct. 08 2011,09:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2011,11:50) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2011,17:12) The bottom line is that there are ages to come even after Paul wrote his letter to the out-called in Ephesus.
But again you have to deal with the aorist tense in Hebrews 1:2, which generally acts as an Enlish past tense.So 1:2 is saying that God DID (past tense) make the ages through Jesus. 1:2 does not say that God IS MAKING (present tense) the ages through Jesus.
Therefore, it refers to MORE THAN ONE age that had ALREADY BEEN created through Jesus.
peace,
mike
God ORDAINED the ages (past tense) because of the Son. The Greek is 'poieo' which in Greek exegesis means 'to ordain' or 'to appoint.' God did NOT make the ages (past tense) in the sense of creating them. He made the ages (past tense) in the sense of appointing them. He makes them in the sense of creating them within the context of human history. Jesus spoke of the age 'to come' (the new covenant) and Paul spoke of the ages 'to come' (the various epochs of the new covenant Eph. 2:7).You make me bust a gut laughing sometimes Mike. Even Paladin who lacks in the area of Greek exegesis has a much better handle on it than you. Will you PLEASE stop commenting on the Greek so much and humble yourself and listen to those of us who have formally studied it? You probably won't be quiet because you are the offspring of the NWT translators who also had no formal training in Greek. “Like father like son.”
KJ
Jack,From Strong's Concordance
poieó: to make, do
Original Word: ποιέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poieó
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I do, make
Definition: (a) I make, manufacture, construct, (b) I do, act, cause.Will you bust a gut laughing at James Strong, who lists “make” as the very first definition of “poieo”?
NWT
and through whom he made the systems of thingsNET Bible
and through whom he created the world.New International Version (©1984)
and through whom he made the universe.New Living Translation (©2007)
and through the Son he created the universe.English Standard Version (©2001)
through whom also he created the world.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
through whom also He made the world.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
by whom also he made the worlds;International Standard Version (©2008)
and through whom he also made the universe.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
and by him he made the universe.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
His Son is the one through whom God made the universe.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
by whom also he made the worlds;American King James Version
by whom also he made the worlds;American Standard Version
through whom also he made the worlds;Bible in Basic English
and through whom he made the order of the generations;Douay-Rheims Bible
by whom also he made the world.Darby Bible Translation
by whom also he made the worlds;English Revised Version
through whom also he made the worlds;Webster's Bible Translation
by whom also he made the worlds;Weymouth New Testament
and through whom He made the Ages.World English Bible
through whom also he made the worlds.Young's Literal Translation
through whom also He did make the ages;Will you bust a gut laughing at these trained scholars who all rendered “poieo” as “made” or “created”?
From Barnes:
By whom – By whose agency; or who was the actual agent in the creation.It may be true that the universe was formed with reference to the glory of the Son of God, and that this world was brought into being in order to show his glory; but it would not do to establish that doctrine on a passage like this. Its obvious and proper meaning is, that he was the agent of the creation……………..
Will you bust a gut lauging at Barnes?
Jack, I have learned a lot from you in my time here. Unfortunately, one of those things is how to speak to the other posters here. You were the first person I ever debated in the only forum I've ever joined. You “taught me” how to discourse with others about scriptural matters. Since then, I've been called to task for my attitude many times. I am solemnly working on my behavior and “smart-aleck” remarks. My hope is that you will do the same. If you have something to correct me on, you can do so without implying I'm an idiot.
Anyway, as far as Heb 1:2 goes, it seems you stand alone in your understanding of “appointed”.
mike
Pierre,
Quote this does not make sense ,what is; feed righteousness; ? Sorry, I dropped the word “you”. This is the corrected statement of mine.
Quote Living by the spirit requires the knowledge and application of believing that God can and will feed you righteousness if you believe Jesus is King with both your actions and your words. It is a lesson I learned from Matthew 5:6 where the promise of the food and drink of a righteousness that is like God’s is made and Galatians 5:22-23 where that food and drink is spoken of. Romans 10:9-10 also is part of the message I heard on this topic as it teaches us that if we confess Jesus is Lord with our mouth and believes in our heart we confess unto salvation and believe unto righteousness.
Quote and why is it so critical to believe that Christ is king ?? It is critical because Jesus did not have the authority to give the Spirit until he was made king of everything in heaven and earth. This is why he teaches us that the Comforter would not have come unless he had gone away.
Quote John 16:7
King James Version (KJV)7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2011,21:49) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Oct. 08 2011,09:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2011,11:50) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2011,17:12) The bottom line is that there are ages to come even after Paul wrote his letter to the out-called in Ephesus.
But again you have to deal with the aorist tense in Hebrews 1:2, which generally acts as an Enlish past tense.So 1:2 is saying that God DID (past tense) make the ages through Jesus. 1:2 does not say that God IS MAKING (present tense) the ages through Jesus.
Therefore, it refers to MORE THAN ONE age that had ALREADY BEEN created through Jesus.
peace,
mike
God ORDAINED the ages (past tense) because of the Son. The Greek is 'poieo' which in Greek exegesis means 'to ordain' or 'to appoint.' God did NOT make the ages (past tense) in the sense of creating them. He made the ages (past tense) in the sense of appointing them. He makes them in the sense of creating them within the context of human history. Jesus spoke of the age 'to come' (the new covenant) and Paul spoke of the ages 'to come' (the various epochs of the new covenant Eph. 2:7).You make me bust a gut laughing sometimes Mike. Even Paladin who lacks in the area of Greek exegesis has a much better handle on it than you. Will you PLEASE stop commenting on the Greek so much and humble yourself and listen to those of us who have formally studied it? You probably won't be quiet because you are the offspring of the NWT translators who also had no formal training in Greek. “Like father like son.”
KJ
Jack,From Strong's Concordance
poieó: to make, do
Original Word: ποιέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poieó
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I do, make
Definition: (a) I make, manufacture, construct, (b) I do, act, cause.Will you bust a gut laughing at James Strong, who lists “make” as the very first definition of “poieo”?
NWT
and through whom he made the systems of thingsNET Bible
and through whom he created the world.New International Version (©1984)
and through whom he made the universe.New Living Translation (©2007)
and through the Son he created the universe.English Standard Version (©2001)
through whom also he created the world.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
through whom also He made the world.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
by whom also he made the worlds;International Standard Version (©2008)
and through whom he also made the universe.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
and by him he made the universe.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
His Son is the one through whom God made the universe.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
by whom also he made the worlds;American King James Version
by whom also he made the worlds;American Standard Version
through whom also he made the worlds;Bible in Basic English
and through whom he made the order of the generations;Douay-Rheims Bible
by whom also he made the world.Darby Bible Translation
by whom also he made the worlds;English Revised Version
through whom also he made the worlds;Webster's Bible Translation
by whom also he made the worlds;Weymouth New Testament
and through whom He made the Ages.World English Bible
through whom also he made the worlds.Young's Literal Translation
through whom also He did make the ages;Will you bust a gut laughing at these trained scholars who all rendered “poieo” as “made” or “created”?
From Barnes:
By whom – By whose agency; or who was the actual agent in the creation.It may be true that the universe was formed with reference to the glory of the Son of God, and that this world was brought into being in order to show his glory; but it would not do to establish that doctrine on a passage like this. Its obvious and proper meaning is, that he was the agent of the creation……………..
Will you bust a gut lauging at Barnes?
Jack, I have learned a lot from you in my time here. Unfortunately, one of those things is how to speak to the other posters here. You were the first person I ever debated in the only forum I've ever joined. You “taught me” how to discourse with others about scriptural matters. Since then, I've been called to task for my attitude many times. I am solemnly working on my behavior and “smart-aleck” remarks. My hope is that you will do the same. If you have something to correct me on, you can do so without implying I'm an idiot.
Anyway, as far as Heb 1:2 goes, it seems you stand alone in your understanding of “appointed”.
mike
Mike,In this case I believe created is a poor choice of translating the word “poieo” which in general seems to mean to make one thing from another.
I have only looked at Strong's and not looked at how “poieo” is used in other passages of Scripture.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2011,01:38) Quote (Pastry @ Oct. 08 2011,06:12) Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. Jhn 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Hi Irene,If verse 37 means NO ONE HAS EVER heard God's voice, then verse 38 must mean that NO ONE HAS EVER believed in Jesus.
But since Jesus is saying this specifically to the ones who had not believed in him, he is also saying that those particular ones are the ones who have never heard God's voice.
John 12
28 Father, glorify your name!”Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine.
Also, read my signature at the bottom of my posts. These are part of the words God spoke directly to Job and his four companions starting in chapter 38. All five of them heard God's voice.
peace,
mike
Mike!
iHbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Mike, do you believe these Scriptures? This is how God communicated with all men…..and the Scripture in John 5 tells us that no one has seen or HEARD Gods voice…but spoke through the Prophets in the OT and through Jesus in the New Test. times…That is what the Scriptures in Hebrew say…
Peace IreneQuote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2011,10:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2011,21:49)
NWT
and through whom he made the systems of thingsNET Bible
and through whom he created the world.New International Version (©1984)
and through whom he made the universe.New Living Translation (©2007)
and through the Son he created the universe.English Standard Version (©2001)
through whom also he created the world.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
through whom also He made the world.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
by whom also he made the worlds;International Standard Version (©2008)
and through whom he also made the universe.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
and by him he made the universe.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
His Son is the one through whom God made the universe.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
by whom also he made the worlds;American King James Version
by whom also he made the worlds;American Standard Version
through whom also he made the worlds;Bible in Basic English
and through whom he made the order of the generations;Douay-Rheims Bible
by whom also he made the world.Darby Bible Translation
by whom also he made the worlds;English Revised Version
through whom also he made the worlds;Webster's Bible Translation
by whom also he made the worlds;Weymouth New Testament
and through whom He made the Ages.World English Bible
through whom also he made the worlds.Young's Literal Translation
through whom also He did make the ages;Jack……………..it seems you stand alone in your understanding of “appointed”.
Mike,In this case I believe created is a poor choice of translating the word “poieo” which in general seems to mean to make one thing from another.
I have only looked at Strong's and not looked at how “poieo” is used in other passages of Scripture.
I stand corrected then. Jack does not stand alone anymore, for Kerwin stands with him.
Unfortunately, you both stand AGAINST the learned scholars who translated the 22 Bibles listed above. And if you consider that each of those translations had up to 100 Greek scholars working on them, that adds up to a lot of scholars who disagree with you and Jack.
But Kerwin, I'll entertain your thoughts in the matter. Tell me WHY “made” is not the appropriate translation.
peace,
mikeQuote (Pastry @ Oct. 08 2011,10:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2011,01:38) Quote (Pastry @ Oct. 08 2011,06:12) Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. Jhn 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Hi Irene,If verse 37 means NO ONE HAS EVER heard God's voice, then verse 38 must mean that NO ONE HAS EVER believed in Jesus.
But since Jesus is saying this specifically to the ones who had not believed in him, he is also saying that those particular ones are the ones who have never heard God's voice.
John 12
28 Father, glorify your name!”Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine.
Also, read my signature at the bottom of my posts. These are part of the words God spoke directly to Job and his four companions starting in chapter 38. All five of them heard God's voice.
peace,
mike
Mike!
iHbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Mike, do you believe these Scriptures? This is how God communicated with all men…..and the Scripture in John 5 tells us that no one has seen or HEARD Gods voice…but spoke through the Prophets in the OT and through Jesus in the New Test. times…That is what the Scriptures in Hebrew say…
Peace Irene
Irene,It doesn't say that was the ONLY way God spoke to us, or else you'd have to disbelieve all the scriptures where God spoke to us through His angels.
Whose voice was Jesus referring to in John 12:30?
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2011,10:26) KERWIN Quote if you believe Jesus is King IS BEING THE SON LESS THAN BEING KING
Hi Pierre,Yes, Prince is son of the King; YHVH is King and Jesus is Prince. (See Acts 3:15 and Rev.1:5-6)
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Revelation 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2011,05:40) kerwin Quote I did not give an opinion I cited a dictionary entry as evidence that to be King over all things is to be the Supreme authority over all things. You did not address that point. if you do not answer my questions then do not complain wen i do not answer yours,
Col 1:16( For by him all things were created:)? (things in heaven and on earth,)? ( visible and invisible)?, (whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;)? (all things )? (were created)? ( by him and for him.) ?
Col 1:17( He is before all things,)? and (in him all things hold together.)?could you answer those question with other scriptures NOT OPINIONS PLEASE
Pierre,
Quote if you do not answer my questions then do not complain when I do not answer yours, I am answering your question by pointing our why other passages declare that Jesus has supremacy in all things just as is written in Colossians 1:18. So my question is part of my answer meant to test whether or not you are following my answer. That is why I seek to see if you understand Philippians 2:9-11 teaches that Jesus was made Supreme in everything after he in his mercy sacrificed himself that we may be set free from slavery to sin.
Quote Philippians 2
New International Version (NIV)9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2011,22:50) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2011,10:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2011,21:49)
NWT
and through whom he made the systems of thingsNET Bible
and through whom he created the world.New International Version (©1984)
and through whom he made the universe.New Living Translation (©2007)
and through the Son he created the universe.English Standard Version (©2001)
through whom also he created the world.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
through whom also He made the world.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
by whom also he made the worlds;International Standard Version (©2008)
and through whom he also made the universe.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
and by him he made the universe.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
His Son is the one through whom God made the universe.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
by whom also he made the worlds;American King James Version
by whom also he made the worlds;American Standard Version
through whom also he made the worlds;Bible in Basic English
and through whom he made the order of the generations;Douay-Rheims Bible
by whom also he made the world.Darby Bible Translation
by whom also he made the worlds;English Revised Version
through whom also he made the worlds;Webster's Bible Translation
by whom also he made the worlds;Weymouth New Testament
and through whom He made the Ages.World English Bible
through whom also he made the worlds.Young's Literal Translation
through whom also He did make the ages;Jack……………..it seems you stand alone in your understanding of “appointed”.
Mike,In this case I believe created is a poor choice of translating the word “poieo” which in general seems to mean to make one thing from another.
I have only looked at Strong's and not looked at how “poieo” is used in other passages of Scripture.
I stand corrected then. Jack does not stand alone anymore, for Kerwin stands with him.Unfortunately, you both stand AGAINST the learned scholars who translated the 22 Bibles listed above. And if you consider that each of those translations had up to 100 Greek scholars working on them, that adds up to a lot of scholars who disagree with you and Jack.
But Kerwin, I'll entertain your thoughts in the matter. Tell me WHY “made” is not the appropriate translation.
peace,
mike
Mike,It is simply the wrong word in Greek for create.
The correct word translated create is “ktizō” which is translated to create or Creator every time but 1 in both the King James version and the New American Standard Version and that exception is made in Ephesians 2:15 where it also should have been translated create.
If created was meant the word “ktizo” would have been used as it was in other passages of scripture.
Kerwin said:
Quote Mike, In this case I believe created is a poor choice of translating the word “poieo” which in general seems to mean to make one thing from another.
I have only looked at Strong's and not looked at how “poieo” is used in other passages of Scripture.
Kerwin,You got it right. Proper exegesis shows that 'poieo' in Hebrews 1:2 must mean 'appointed.' Mike and I have been over these things before but he just won't listen.
Note the exchange I had with Mike on this last year. NOTE THAT MIKE ADMITS THAT 'MADE' HAS MANY MEANINGS.
Mike:
Quote Oh brother, here we go. “Made” has many meanings Jack.
Reply:Exactly! That's exactly what I said. Mike needs to go back and read what I said.
I said:
Quote Mike needs to realize that the word “made” even in English means many things and that he is just assuming his meaning in Acts 4.
Mike just assumes his meaning in Acts 4.Mike:
Quote Appointed is one of them, and I agree that in the case of what Peter said above, the meaning is “appointed”. Why? Because it is followed by words describing what Jesus was appointed TO.
Good! We know also that the creation was appointed TO declare His praise. This is repeatedly said in the Psalms. Peter did not need to explicitly say it.Mike:
Quote John 2:15 says, NET © So he made a whip of cords and drove them all out of the temple courts, with the sheep and the oxen. He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
This is the same word “poieo” that John uses. But in this case, it means “formed” because it's clear from the context Jesus didn't “appoint” this whip AS anything or TO any position. He simply “formed” it out of cords.
Reply:In this instance Strong's meaning “to band together” should be applied. Strong does not say that “poieo” means “to create.” The word “poieo” does not mean “to create.”
Mike:
Quote There is another abstract meaning when it is used like this: Jesus “made” the blind man well again.”
Reply:Again, the word “poieo” does not mean “to create.”
Mike:
Quote Can one just “appoint” something without appointing it TO or AS something? If not, then Acts 4 is not talking about “appointing”, but about “forming”, for it doesn't mention the heavens and earth were appointed TO or AS anything – just “made”.
Reply:It was already known to the Jews that all creation was appointed TO declare His praise. Peter did not need to say it in Mike's wording. In fact, Hebrews 1 says that the Father appointed (poieo) the worlds because of the Son. So we are not bound to Mike's “appointed TO” formula. The scripture says that the worlds were appointed “because….”
Mike:
Quote The word “to” that you use represents a reason they were “appointed”. We need an adjective or a noun that they were “appointed” AS or TO. There are none mentioned in Acts 4. In fact, there is no “reason” mentioned either. It just says God “made” the heavens and earth and everything in them.
Reply:Sheer nonsense! Mike is saying that because Peter did not state the reason for the appointment of creation then there was no reason. Again, Hebrews 1 says that the Father appointed (poieo) the worlds because of the Son. Verse 10 says that Jesus did the actual work of creating the heavens and the earth. If the Father was Mike's God as he claims, then he would not argue with the Father.
I said:
Quote MY SINCERE THANKS TO MIKE! Strong's says nothing about “making” in the sense of forming.
Mike replied:Quote Yes he does. 1) to make 1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
It's his first definition.
Reply:No Strong does not! None of the defintions for “poieo” Mike gives are found in Strong's Concordance. Here is what Strong's# 4160 actually says:
Quote to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct); , abide, + agree, appoint, x avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring forth, cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfill, gain, give, have, hold, x journeying, keep, + lay wait + lighten the ship, make, x mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have, purged, purpose, put, + raising up x secure, shew, x shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work yield. Comp. 4238
Two observations:1. Strong begins by saying that “poieo” has a “wide variety” of applications. Then he lists the various meanings of the word. The words Mike imputes to Strong do not appear in Strong's list of definitions!
2. Strong ends saying to compare with 4238. None of Mike's definitions are found in 4238 either.
The words Mike gives as definitions “to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc” are no where found in Strong's 4160 and 4238! Where does Mike get this stuff?
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=30
KJ
Pierre,
Quote TELL ME WHAT THE WORD “SPIRIT ” MEANS IN THOSE SCRIPTURES YOU ARE QUOTING ME ? This is a breakdown of Romans 8:9.
1) But ye are not in the flesh = You are not compelled to sin
2) but in the Spirit = You are driven to do right
3) if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you = Provided God’s saintly Spirit dwell’s in you
4) if any man have not the Spirit of Christ = If anyone does not have Jesus’ saintly Spirit in him
5) he is none of his = Jesus does not know them.1 Corinthians 12:13 is speaking of the creative force of God which is also God’s spirit of Love. It is God’s Spirit of Anointing by which he begets his children through the act of creating or recreating their spirits. It is the same Spirit that drives those who have it to do right.
Quote OR WHAT IS IT ?? God is love because his Spirit is love and he anoints his children with that same love so that they too become love.
Quote (Pastry @ Oct. 09 2011,06:12) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 08 2011,14:56) Quote (Pastry @ Oct. 08 2011,21:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 07 2011,13:12) Irene, We are talking about HEARING God, remember? I agree that no man can SEE God and live, because scripture says just that.
But scripture NEVER says that no man has ever HEARD God. And the Israelites clearly DID hear God at Horeb. And men heard God at Jesus' baptism and at his transfiguration.
peace,
mike
Mike! When Jesus said inJhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Said this, it was years after the Israeli's, and it does not mattter to whom He said it, it is true…..
No man will ever, in flesh and blood see God……
To say differently is calling Jesus a liar….. Sorry Mike but YOU are dead wrong here……
Peace and Love Irene
Ireneyou should read those scriptures in John 5 36-37-38
then you understand that Jesus was speaking to the people in front of him ,
Mike is right because as he says the hebrew heard the voice of God ,but those who were in front of Jesus did not and also did not show faith in the scriptures because they ad not believed in Jesus teachings
Pierre
Pierre! So now every time Jesus is speaking to others in Scriptures, its not so?
Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Jhn 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
These Scriptures do not void what Jesus is saying…. that is ridiculous….and wrong….. all Scriptures are for our understanding and true…. the Scripture verse 37 is not taken out of context….but true for all of us…..
Also since you both believe verse 37 is not for us, now when the verse 36nd 38 say that He was sent….. it is also wrong and not for us to believe? Especially verse 36 is that wrong too?
Of course not….Irene
Ireneall the verse are true ,this you miss understood what I try to say,
first application ,those words are said by Christ to the people around him (mainly scribes and other religious leaders) but we can learn of what he said to them for us now,
Jer 5:20 “Announce this to the house of Jacob
and proclaim it in Judah:
Jer 5:21 Hear this, you foolish and senseless people,
who have eyes but do not see,
who have ears but do not hear:but use them to interpret them and applying to all of creation or all men this could lead to a distorted view of his words
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2011,04:37) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2011,10:26) KERWIN Quote if you believe Jesus is King IS BEING THE SON LESS THAN BEING KING
Hi Pierre,Yes, Prince is son of the King; YHVH is King and Jesus is Prince. (See Acts 3:15 and Rev.1:5-6)
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Revelation 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,I informed you last year that the word “prince” in old King James English proves nothing. King James was also called “Prince” James. The word 'prince' in Rev. 1:5 is old King James English. It is 'archon' which simply means 'ruler.' Jesus is EXPLICITLY called “King of kings” in Rev. 19.
But you will continue to manipulate language to your liking won't you?
KJ
Mike said:
Quote I stand corrected then. Jack does not stand alone anymore, for Kerwin stands with him. Unfortunately, you both stand AGAINST the learned scholars who translated the 22 Bibles listed above.
Mike is wrong. See my post above from an exchange I had last year with Mike. Strong's did not define 'poieo' the way Mike said he did.This is the problem with heretics and cults. They assign only one meaning to words. But even Mike has admitted that 'make' (poieo) means MANY things.
Mike said:
Quote Oh brother, here we go. “Made” has many meanings Jack. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y311940
Now Mike is flip flopping again like he often does. FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Oct. 09 2011,10:21) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2011,04:37) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2011,10:26) KERWIN Quote if you believe Jesus is King IS BEING THE SON LESS THAN BEING KING
Hi Pierre,Yes, Prince is son of the King; YHVH is King and Jesus is Prince. (See Acts 3:15 and Rev.1:5-6)
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Revelation 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,I informed you last year that the word “prince” in old King James English proves nothing. King James was also called “Prince” James. The word 'prince' in Rev. 1:5 is old King James English. It is 'archon' which simply means 'ruler.' Jesus is EXPLICITLY called “King of kings” in Rev. 19.
But you will continue to manipulate language to your liking won't you?
KJ
Hi Jack,Are you denying that ἀρχηγός means “Prince”?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike,
Quote Those scripture talk about the current age, and an age that is yet to come. Past tense words are not generally used in reference to things yet to come. You are vague on which Scripture you are addressing but all three verbs used in Hebrews 1:2 are aorist which does not tell when they took place but that they took place.
Aorist verbs can be speaking of when the action started, ended, or its totality.
Quote But the imperfect tense of “ktizo” in Col 1:16 is the final nail in the coffin, Kerwin. That tense makes it clear that all existing things had already been created through Jesus in a “once for all time” action. Biblos.com states it is also an aorist and not a imperfect tense. Are you using another source?
I used this site to learn about aorist verbs.
Quote But again you have to deal with the aorist tense in Hebrews 1:2, which generally acts as an English past tense. I missed this post. There are those that argue that but “endeiknymi” in Hebrews2:7 b is an aorist verb translated to present tense and Ephesians 2:7 is the scripture I cited for comparison. Hebrews 11:3 the word aion is perfect tense.
Quote So 1:2 is saying that God DID (past tense) make the ages through Jesus. 1:2 does not say that God IS MAKING (present tense) the ages through Jesus. Therefore, it refers to MORE THAN ONE age that had ALREADY BEEN created through Jesus.
I believe these are answered by what I have already written.
Yes! Archon means 'ruler' and is translated that way in ALL other translations except the KJV which is archaic English. The NKJV has it right!
Young's Literal Translation
Quote 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,
The first King James Bibles in 1611 were dedicated to “The Mighty King, Prince James.”In old English the words 'king' and 'prince' could be equivalents. So you can't prove squat from the KJV. But go ahead and let the whole internet world see you ignore the historical usage of words.
KJ
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