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JA…………Please Show us where any Scripture say Angels do (not) have Bodies then. Would like to see that would greately help in this debate. Because they can appear or disappear as Jesus did with his body does not mean Angels do not have bodies all the time. It may be Just we can't always see there bodies like the lad with Elijah the Prophet, the angels were there fighting for Israel but no one could see them but the Lad when Elijah ask GOD to Open his eyes for him to see them and they did have bodies it appears. Elijah saw them all along right?. IMO
gene
Gene,
That is the most coherent post I've seen you make in ages!
Bravo, my good man.
Now, all you have to do is believe the scripture that says angels ARE spirits.
mike
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2010,21:00) JA you say;And Terra, what was fascinating about these two questions?
it especially the one about the nephilim
Pierre
JAyes i have seen your answer and now a question you have said in a previous quote that according to Gen 6;4 the nephilim were or existed before and also after the flood ,
so that the angels were still having marriages with the women of the earth ,that is what you saying ???since the nephilim were still born.
IS THIS YOUR THINKING???Pierre
MIke…………….Post where it say Angels (ARE) “SPIRITS” then Same applies to you as JA. I believe Angels have bodies with SPIRIT (IN) Then JUST like WE DO. Because it say GOD Created His Angles (SPIRITS) does not mean they a(ARE THEMSELVES) SPIRITS BUT they Have SPIRITS (INTELLECTS) (IN) them created BY GOD. That is the way I see it anyway. I personally believe nothing can exist as a “BEING” without a Body of some kind (EXCEPT) GOD. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2010,01:11) To all, Do ghosts, aka phantasms, have spiritual bodies?
If so are their bodies like the bodies of other spiritual beings?
Just looking for answers.Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2010,22:01) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2010,01:11) To all, Do ghosts, aka phantasms, have spiritual bodies?
If so are their bodies like the bodies of other spiritual beings?
Just looking for answers.
Kerwini have never heard of that stuff ,it is out of my phantasm.
the only thing i know for sure is that there are demons,
the type Jesus and the apostles removed out of people.those it seems to be the spirits of the nephilim who were the offspring of the angels that came down to take the daughters of men.
at the flood the escaped but now wandering the planet for volunteers so they can use(or take over) there body .
that s about all i know of it .
Pierre
Kerwin,
There are no such things as 'Ghosts', nor 'Phantasms'…
These are all made up things by the imagination of pagan man.
We don't discuss such nonesense.
Spirits, yes….ghosts, no, phantasms, no.
Please start a thread about this and see who responds…
Terra,
When the Angels came down from Heaven, abandoning their posts, they created humanlike bodies for themselves and mated with human women.What do you think? that invisible, bodyless spirits 'walked' on the earth ravishing women as they pleased…must have been a shock, or a thrill, for the women to be having carnal sex with an invisible bodyless spirit, and then finding themselves pregnant, busting them out giving birth to giant babies.
When American soldiers went to Korea they too had carnal knowledge of the much smaller Korean women. The babies that resulted in the death of many korean women in childbirth and generated a small race of much larger Koreans.Terra, i'm not going into what the Nephilims did after the flood nor whether they still exist today..
To me, that is of no interest…understand this: JustAskin is not interested, not that any one else should not be…Gene,
You too are in a stupor…Angels fighting with men…..what chance does a human have against an Angel?
You can only say what you say if you are in total confusion.
In one post to me, you both agree AND disagree with me…duh!!!
Your post was covering every combination of thought on the matter…
Is this meant to try and make you look wise…being able to later say, 'i did say that before'…by way of only quoting the paragraph that agrees, ignoring the ones that disagree…
This is how women delude themselves with Palmistry, Weejee boards, Spiritism, Horoscopes, mediums , etc.
The false medium tells them many things 'that they WANT to believe'.
The very fact they search out these things shows they are up to believing it and will believe just because they often pay good money and, like Eve, are more easily succeptible to belief in 'revelation'.
But, no matter how idiotic the outcome…they tend to believe it….and when the 'prohecy' proves false…they are the first to say, 'Ah, maybe she was just having a bad day. I don't expect that she would get everything right…no, i don't mind, i'll go back for another reading…because i want to know the future…'!!!!Gene, you cover many bases, 'spread betting', hoping that when you are proved wrong in one place you simply abandon it and move to the next 'bet'.
Gene, no one can 'prove' a negative…'show me where it doesn't say Angels have bodies'.
That is a childish questuon in the line of Mikebollishness…. No one can 'prove' a negative….
There is no 'proof' that Angels don't have bodies because in the Scriptures because who would imagine that anyone would say 'Spirits have bodies'… when, by the very 'Nature' of their being, by the very nature of the Word…Spirits means, 'without body'…
The 'spirit of the law, not the letter'
Very simple….the 'Spirit' of the law means freedom from the 'Body' of the law, which is the 'Letter'.
Gene,
Appear and Disappear…no, materialise and dematerialise.If an entity has a physical body, then it occupies physical space.
Even if the entity 'disappear' it still occupies Space, it is still there.But if it dematerialises it no longer occupies space, therefore, the 'Spirit' of the entity, freed from the 'body', can go anywhere….and immediately, instantly, then…materialise where it will….
In effect, doing the 'disappear and reappear' thing….That was just for refinement…as long as you understand that 'appear' means 'Spirit materialised into a body' and 'disappear' means 'dematerialise the body, leaving the Spirit free'.
See, the Angel materialised as fire in the bush before Moses.
Another materialised as a soldier with sword before Balaam (Did the Angel NEED a sword to stop Balaam…hardly!!! Do Angels need swords…do they kill or wound each other in Heaven….no, the sword is simply symbolic of 'power'..the Angel displayed a symbol of 'authority' for why he was sent to Balaam)The legions of battling Angels…do Angels battle with humans in hand to hand combat? Ha ha, who's been reading Greek Homer's 'The Illiad'?
No, the Angels represented the power that was available to infuse the human fighters….see, even, why were the Angels invisible until the eyes of the man were open…no, it meant that the power of God was with him and he shouldn't dispare. He was shown, in symbolic forms, the power of God, visibly in the form of Angels in appropriate 'power gear'…battle armour on battle horses….
Think, also, where does it say that there are Horses in heaven, except by symbolism, e.g. In the book of Revelation.
Gene, part of your struggle is simply because you refuse to believe certain aspects of Spirit.
Because you refuse to accept preExistence, you need to 'invent' solutions against clear Scriptural rendering….Gene, this must be such a struggle, hence your need to keep posting repetitive post saying 'preExistents' are AntiChrist…when even the most simplistic view of 'AntiChrist' shows you are wrong, wrong, wrong…
AntiChrist is: If you do not believe that Christ has come in the flesh…
Gene, it matters not if Christ came from 'preExistence' or 'from the mind of God', if one believes that 'Christ came as Man'…then you are saved….that's it in 'simplistic form',
The 'Spirit of the Word' but, of course, the 'Letter of the Word' has meat on it…that is, is more restrictive, there is more solid Material to 'AntiChrist' than simply 'belief that Christ came'…you have to 'live Christ'.Just Askin,
Then you must not believe that the Witch of Endor summoned the phantasm of Samuel to give the King Saul advice and who instead rebuked the king.
You must also not believe God when he declares the disciples thought Jesus was a phantasm. The word phantasm is actually closely related to the Greek word they used.
In addition Jesus proved he was not a Ghost be eating before the disciples.
Scriptures show us the God's people believe in ghosts even as they believe in demons and angels.
To reject them is the act of so called rationalist who do not know God.
Mikeboll,
Do you know what i wrote and then delete….
I wrote this, and it's a quote from the spirit…
“Mikeboll, you are an idiot of the highest order. You certainly deserve your title of 'Master(de)bater'.I will not trouble you any more n this topic as it is clear and apparent that your style of mastering only leads to antagonism… You do not seek truth, but merely try, at any cost, nay, all (And this ALL does mean ALL) costs to win…or, as you would say, and none agree, 'put your point across in a point by point basis….'
(Mike, have you ever moved from point #1 in any discussion or debate? Yet it is your trademark cry 'let me take this point by point'.
Mike, you like puzzles…do you know what 'Recursion' is?)You draw yourself into sin, dancing with the devil and can't seem to understand that you can only stop, even when you whizz by the truth, when He says so, when His music stops…Mike, do you wear 'Red Shoes'…do you know what that means….”
That's what i wrote and then deleted…
As far as i am concerned, this thread is finished.
I will read what others say but this topic has caused you, Terra and irene to sin…it is not healthy.
Shimmer is right…'does it matter' (I know the answer, and i told her but i won't tell you because it is beyond your comprehension, much like much that you debate…beyond the flesh…and that's why you baulk at truth….
Flesh and Blood thinking cannot accommodate Spiritual Truth.
In the same way how it frustrates you dealing with Gene, and I uphold you on that, it is the same for me dealing with you…and God upholds me on that…
Get out of Fleshly earthly thinking Mike….that's where you are Pharasee… Start putting on the Spirit and ALL (the small 'all') will become clear…
I try to show that 'dimensions' is the key to understanding Spirit. How a Spirit can go from one place to another miles, billions of miles away in a twinkling of an eye….how can a bodied entity do that…impossible…
Mike, at the risk of a long thread…i work on Maps…i do lots of things, i work in Computers, i believe in Science, Science uncovers God's work…i'm not one denying God by Science. I am one embracing God through Science…i saw a program last night show how 'Chaos' created life…i laughed…the presenter said he couldn't understand how 'order came out of Chaos'…he was almost struggling to say there was an unknown 'intelligence' that did it…but he couldn't say it else he'd never present another program, ever…they don't make programs showing God doing anything, eben reigious programs shy away from saying it straight these days…
On a Map landscape…what is the quickest way to get from 'A' to 'B'….ok, simple, a straight line…but, long distances…even Scienctist have worked this one out…. Go up into the air, high high…..then you can come down ANYWHERE as quickly as Anywhere else…no restrictions on mountains, valleys, weaving roads, trees, rivers….
Terrain, is 'flesh', sky is 'spirit'.
With terrain you struggle. Traffic lights, hold ups, steep hills…restrictions…
Go up…nothing to restrct you, you see the whole earth…everywhere at once…come down where you will…Put off the Terrain, put on the Sky…
When you come down to where you will, then you put on the terrain again. Try 'Google Earth' see how they do it, see how wonderful an example it shows (we are gods, made in the Image of God…not angels, angels are not made in the image of God but are under the direct order of servitude, not free to do as they please except by rebellion. God made man to serve Him by choice)
When you put off the fleshly cloak body, you 'disappear' by the Spirit. Then you reappear elsewhere putting back the Free unembodied Spirit into the fleshly cloak body.
This is the 'SpiritMan'…
And Mike….don't grieve the Spirit..how do you ask, 'Where does it say Jesus is still man'….i won't even answer that….
I guess now you going to say that i'm saying that Jesus isn't Spirit…please, don't go there….you full well know what i think and believe…it is the Spirit of Satan that ndwells you that drives you to accuse me where itis clear, i have said many many times over, by word and diagram, what i believe…but the Spirit of …that word i forget… makes my words, views and beliefs as a revelation to you everytime (Terra even tells me that i should believe something he says…just after i posted him the same thing…it'sas if he reads it, forgets where he read it, then says, 'ha, See JA, this is whatyou should believe…see it's written here, or there''.
Sad, so sad.. Terra, you repeating it to me because you JUST READ IT FROM ME!!!(Amnesia…that's the word. How could i forget that word?)
To all,
If you are sincerely addressing the point of whether spirits have bodies then you must address the phantasm of Samuel summoned by the Witch of Endor. A ghost is a spirit after all and the Witch was able to describe the spirit she saw. She was disobeying the law that banned the summoning of spirits, Deut. 18:11.
If a ghost is a disimbodied spirit then is an angel a ghost? Why or why not?
All,
This was written by Irenaeus from the earliest church aprox 130 AD I think. PLEASE READ IT.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/history….ii.html
Chapter XXVIII.-Perfect Knowledge Cannot Be Attained in the Present Life: Many Questions Must Be Submissively Left in the Hands of God.
1. Having therefore the truth itself as our rule and the testimony concerning God set clearly before us, we ought not, by running after numerous and diverse answers to questions, to cast away the firm and true knowledge of God. But it is much more suitable that we, directing our inquiries after this fashion, should exercise ourselves in the investigation of the mystery and administration of the living God, and should increase in the love of Him who has done, and still does, so great things for us; but never should fall from the belief by which it is most clearly proclaimed that this Being alone is truly God and Father, who both formed this world, fashioned man, and bestowed the faculty of increase on His own creation, and called him upwards from lesser things to those greater ones which are in His own presence, just as He brings an infant which has been conceived in the womb into the light of the sun, and lays up wheat in the barn after He has given it full strength on the stalk. But it is one and the same Creator who both fashioned the womb and created the sun; and one and the same Lord who both reared the stalk of corn, increased and multiplied the wheat, and prepared the barn.
2. If, however, we cannot discover explanations of all those things in Scripture which are made the subject of investigation, yet let us not on that account seek after any other God besides Him who really exists. For this is the very greatest impiety. We should leave things of that nature to God who created us, being most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit; but we, inasmuch as we are inferior to, and later in existence than, the Word of God and His Spirit, are on that very account destitute of the knowledge of His mysteries. And there is no cause for wonder if this is the case with us as respects things spiritual and heavenly, and such as require to be made known to us by revelation, since many even of those things which lie at our very feet (I mean such as belong to this world, which we handle, and see, and are in close contact with) transcend out knowledge, so that even these we must leave to God. For it is fitting that He should excel all [in knowledge]. For how stands the case, for instance, if we endeavour to explain the cause of the rising of the Nile? We may say a great deal, plausible or otherwise, on the subject; but what is true, sure, and incontrovertible regarding it, belongs only to God. Then, again, the dwelling-place of birds-of those, I mean, which come to us in spring, but fly away again on the approach of autumn-though it is a matter connected with this world, escapes our knowledge.What explanation, again, can we give of the flow and ebb of the ocean, although every one admits there must be a certain cause [for these phenomena]? Or what can we say as to the nature of those things which lie beyond it? What, moreover, can we say as to the formation of rain, lightning, thunder, gatherings of clouds, vapours, the bursting forth of winds, and such like things; of tell as to the storehouses of snow, hail, and other like things? [What do we know respecting] the conditions requisite for the preparation of clouds, or what is the real nature of the vapours in the sky? What as to the reason why the moon waxes and wanes, or what as to the cause of the difference of nature among various waters, metals, stones, and such like things? On all these points we may indeed say a great deal while we search into their causes, but God alone who made them can declare the truth regarding them.
3. If, therefore, even with respect to creation, there are some things [the knowledge of] Which belongs only to God, and others which come with in the range of our own knowledge, what ground is there for complaint, if, in regard to those things which we investigate in the Scriptures (which are throughout spiritual), we are able by the grace of God to explain some of them, while we must leave others in the hands of God, and that not only in the present world, but also in that which is to come, so that God should for ever teach, and man should for ever learn the things taught him by God? As the apostle has said on this point, that, when other things have been done away, then these three, “faith, hope, and love, shall endure.” For faith, which has respect to our Master, endures unchangeably, assuring us that there is but one true God, and that we should truly love Him for ever, seeing that He alone is our Father; while we hope ever to be receiving more and more from God, and to learn from Him, because He is good, and possesses boundless riches, a kingdom without end, and instruction that can never be exhausted. If, therefore, according to the rule which I have stated, we leave some questions in the hands of God, we shall both preserve our faith uninjured, and shall continue without danger; and all Scripture, which has been given to us by God, shall be found by us perfectly consistent; and the parables shall harmonize with those passages which are perfectly plain; and those statements the meaning of which is clear, shall serve to explain the parables; and through the many diversified utterances [of Scripture] there shall be heard one harmonious melody in us, praising in hymns that God who created all things. If, for instance, any one asks, “What was God doing before He made the world? “we reply that the answer to such a question lies with God Himself. For that this world was formed perfect by God, receiving a beginning in time, the Scriptures teach us; but no Scripture reveals to us what God was employed about before this event. The answer therefore to that question remains with God, and it is not proper for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it]; so, as by one's imagining that he has discovered the origin of matter, he should in reality set aside God Himself who made all things.
6. But, beyond reason inflated [with your own wisdom], ye presumptuously maintain that ye are acquainted with the unspeakable mysteries of God; while even the Lord, the very Son of God, allowed that the Father alone knows the very day and hour of judgment, when He plainly declares, “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, neither the Son, but the Father only.” If, then, the Son was not ashamed to ascribe the knowledge of that day to the Father only, but declared what was true regarding the matter, neither let us be ashamed to reserve for God those greater questions which may occur to us. For no man is superior to his master. If any one, therefore, says to us, “How then was the Son produced by the Father? “we reply to him, that no man understands that production, or generation, or calling, or revelation, or by whatever name one may describe His generation, which is in fact altogether indescribable. Neither Valentinus, nor Marcion, nor Saturninus, nor Basilides, nor angels, nor archangels, nor principalities, nor powers [possess this knowledge], but the Father only who begat, and the Son who was begotten. Since therefore His generation is unspeakable, those who strive to set forth generations and productions cannot be in their right mind, inasmuch as they undertake to describe things which are indescribable. For that a word is uttered at the bidding of thought and mind, all men indeed well understand. Those, therefore, who have excogitated [the theory of] emissions have not discovered anything great, or revealed any abstruse mystery, when they have simply transferred what all understand to the only-begotten Word of Go
d; and while they style Him unspeakable and unnameable, they nevertheless set forth the production and formation of His first generation, as if they themselves had assisted at His birth, thus assimilating Him to the word of mankind formed by emissions.7. But we shall not be wrong if we affirm the same thing also concerning the substance of matter, that God produced it. For we have learned from the Scriptures that God holds the supremacy over all things. But whence or in what way He produced it, neither has Scripture anywhere declared; nor does it become us to conjecture, so as, in accordance with our own opinions, to form endless conjectures concerning God, but we should leave such knowledge in the hands of God Himself. In like manner, also, we must leave the cause why, while all things were made by God, certain of His creatures sinned and revolted from a state of submission to God, and others, indeed the great majority, persevered, and do still persevere, in [willing] subjection to Him who formed them, and also of what nature those are who sinned, and of what nature those who persevere,-[we must, I say, leave the cause of these things] to God and His Word, to whom alone He said, “Sit at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.” But as for us, we still dwell upon the earth, and have not yet sat down upon His throne. For although the Spirit of the Saviour that is in Him “searcheth all things, even the deep things of God,” yet as to us “there are diversities of gifts, differences of administrations, and diversities of operations; ” and we, while upon the earth, as Paul also declares, “know in part, and prophesy in part.” Since, therefore, we know but in part, we ought to leave all sorts of [difficult] questions in the hands of Him who in some measure, [and that only, ] bestows grace on us. That eternal fire, [for instance, ] is prepared for sinners, both the Lord has plainly declared, and the rest of the Scriptures demonstrate. And that God fore-knew that this would happen, the Scriptures do in like manner demonstrate, since He prepared eternal fire from the beginning for those who were [afterwards] to transgress [His commandments]; but the cause itself of the nature of such transgressors neither has any Scripture informed us, nor has an apostle told us, nor has the Lord taught us. It becomes us, therefore, to leave the knowledge of this matter to God, even as the Lord does of the day and hour [of judgment], and not to rush to such an extreme of danger, that we will leave nothing in the hands of God, even though we have received only a measure of grace [from Him in this world]. But when we investigate points which are above us, and with respect to which we cannot reach satisfaction, [it is absurd ] that we should display such an extreme of presumption as to lay open God, and things which are not yet discovered, as if already we had found out, by the vain talk about emissions, God Himself, the Creator of all things, and to assert that He derived His substance from apostasy and ignorance, so as to frame an impious hypothesis in opposition to God.
9. But if any lover of strife contradict what I have said, and also what the apostle affirms, that “we know in part, and prophesy in part,” and imagine that he has acquired not a partial, but a universal, knowledge of all that exists,-being such an one as Valentinus, or Ptolemaeus, or Basilides, or any other of those who maintain that they have searched out the deep things of God,-let him not (arraying himself in vainglory) boast that he has acquired greater knowledge than others with respect to those things which are invisible, or cannot be placed under our observation; but let him, by making diligent inquiry, and obtaining information from the Father, tell us the reasons (which we know not) of those things which are in this world,-as, for instance, the number of hairs on his own head, and the sparrows which are captured day by day, and such other points with which we are not previously acquainted,-so that we may credit him also with respect to more important points. But if those who are perfect do not yet understand the very things in their hands, and at their feet, and before their eyes, and on the earth, and especially the rule followed with respect to the hairs of their head, how can we believe them regarding things spiritual, and super-celestial, and those which, with a vain confidence, they assert to be above God? So much, then, I have said concerning numbers, and names, and syllables, and questions respecting such things as are above our comprehension, and concerning their improper expositions of the parables: since thou thyself mayest enlarge upon them.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 11 2010,00:23) To all, If you are sincerely addressing the point of whether spirits have bodies then you must address the phantasm of Samuel summoned by the Witch of Endor. A ghost is a spirit after all and the Witch was able to describe the spirit she saw. She was disobeying the law that banned the summoning of spirits, Deut. 18:11.
If a ghost is a disimbodied spirit then is an angel a ghost? Why or why not?
Hi Kerwin, theres no such thing as Ghosts. It's just peoples imagination IMO.But Kerwin, I heard through some JWs that demons can pretend to be the dead too. That could be true.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2010,21:23) To all, If you are sincerely addressing the point of whether spirits have bodies then you must address the phantasm of Samuel summoned by the Witch of Endor. A ghost is a spirit after all and the Witch was able to describe the spirit she saw. She was disobeying the law that banned the summoning of spirits, Deut. 18:11.
If a ghost is a disimbodied spirit then is an angel a ghost? Why or why not?
Kerwin! Yes this is what it says inDeu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
One third of the Angels went with Lucifer who became Satan. These are now called Demons…..
To deny that is dangerous…..We need to test the Spirits to see if they are of God…..
Let me tell you a story. When we started to read the Bible Georg called a Minister from the WWChurch of God. After each time we called our Catholic Priest to compare what we had learned. The last time He told Georg that God was calling us. That night I was praying and asking God, please tell me are you the God of the Universe? At that moment I felt like one Spirit left and another Spirit came to replace the false one. It was an amazing experience I will never forget….We have to remember that Satan is a Spirit of light, and will do just about anything to get us. If we don't believe that there are no Demons then who are those that followed Satan in His rebellion of God??Peace and love Irene
JA………….Lets deal with this scripture.
Like 24: 39……> Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. This was after his resurrection right, So it appears Jesus was (NOT) a SPIRIT BEING RIGHT> And when he spoke of his return he said when the SON OF MAN RETURNS> Think about it JA
peace and love…………………………….gene
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