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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 15 2012,05:36) Mike……….This is not what you have said You (HAVE) said Angels (ARE) SPIRITS, themselves , While i have argued they have Bodies ………………..
Yes Gene. YOU are right about angels having bodies. Toby is right about angels BEING spirits.I am right about both.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 16 2012,14:28) Hi Terraricca, John 20:22…
tobyJn 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
so were does it say essence
???????Quote (toby @ Mar. 14 2012,21:05) Neither of them – because your premises are flawed.
Let's do talk about our “premises” for a minute.Your premise is: Mike, I know Jesus didn't have a spiritual body because something would have had to happen to that spiritual body when Jesus was made into a human being.
And right from the start, YOUR premise is flawed. If God took EVERYTHING that comprised Jesus in heaven (everything made of spirit – including his spiritual body), and made that same everything into a human being, WHY would you assume that God first had to remove his spiritual outer perimeter and only turn THE REST of Jesus into a human being?
If Jesus existed in heaven with purple hair and pink fingernails, and God turned JESUS into a human being, then it would stand to reason that THOSE THINGS were also turned into a human being along with the rest of Jesus. WHY would you make an attempt to separate his body from the rest of him?
Can you see how your premised is flawed to start with? It relies on the nonsensical ASSUMPTION that if Jesus had a a body, it would have had to be removed BEFORE Jesus could be made into a man. But WHY would you assume such an odd thing?
Now, about the car analogy: Imagine that this is the Firebird from the old show Knight Rider. Remember that show? Remember how that car had its own intelligence called K.I.T.T. ?
Now, if God turned the Knight Rider car into a human being, WHY would you just assume that God would first have to remove quarter panels, rocker panels, roof, trunk and hood before He could perform this act? If the words said that God turned THE KNIGHT RIDER CAR into a human, why would you assume it ONLY MEANT K.I.T.T. – and not the WHOLE ENTIRE CAR?
Could not God turn the WHOLE ENTIRE CAR into a human being – body and all?
Your question was a non-question from the moment you asked it, and beneath any kind of response from me in the first place. But still I tried. And here is one last try:
John the Baptist said that God could raise up sons of Abraham from stones. Assume those stones were geodes, with the hard, ugly, outer crust and the beautiful crystal formations on the inside. Would you then ask John the Baptist what God did with the crusty outside of the stones before turning JUST the pretty inside into sons of Abraham?
If so, WHY? Why would you just assume that God couldn't turn the WHOLE ENTIRE STONE (crusty outside and all) into a son of Abraham?
Hi Mikeboll,
I never made any premises. You made that up – I only asked the question. The question was to clarify the premises you made concerning the droplet of water analogy that excludes the Spirit in the Being and only concentrates on the body.
A (Living) human being is 'Spirit… and …Body'.
Where is the 'Spirit' in your analogy?Even the car analogy does not have a Spirit in it.
So far all you've said is that God turned:
1) The Spiritual Body (and all) of Jesus into a Human Being
2) A droplet of water into a Human Being
3) A car with an Engine into a Human Being
4) Stones into Human BeingsIn none of these points do you mention the most important element: The Spirit.
I asked you to show me the Scripture that says God transformed the Spiritual Body of Jesus (and All) into a Baby in the womb of Mary.
As far as the Real Scriptures, it says that 'A body was prepared for him'. God does not create flawed flesh and blood bodies so the body must have been that of Mary who had human flesh that was corrupt by the sin of Adam.
So, if the Body is prepared, as of Adam, then it needs only the Spirit to be housed in it to make it a Living Soul.
Do you want to try again?
Seeing that it is the Breathe of Life (The Spirit) of Jesus that enlivened the prepared body in the womb of Mary, what I am asking you to do is to say what happened to the (supposed) 'Spiritual Body' that contained the Spirit of Jesus?
(You did say that the Spirit has a 'Body' (a Spiritual Body?), didn't you?)Mikeboll,
Do you wish you'd never had mentioned 'Jesus had a Spiritual Body in Heaven before coming as Man'?You made a grave error of judgement a while back when you thought it would get you some kudos but it has come back to bite you.
Are you ready to say what the body of your supposed 'Spiritual Body' is made of?
And please don't say 'Spirit' as I will only ask what 'Spirit' is?
See, Mikeboll, an endless loop for you!!
Perhaps you will do as the Trinitarians do and say 'It is a mystery'!
You are already saying what Mormons/Latter Day Saints say.Is this a new Hybrid Religious concept – as you might say: 'The Scriptures according to Mikeboll'?
Quote (toby @ Mar. 15 2012,18:43) See, Mikeboll, an endless loop for you!!
Talking to you is a seemingly endless (and very tiresome) loop for me!
Toby, in my last post to you, I've asked a WHY? question three different ways. Will you answer it? (I particularly like the geode one, so answer it first.)
Quote (toby @ Mar. 15 2012,18:41) As far as the Real Scriptures, it says that 'A body was prepared for him'……….
For WHO?Was the body prepared for “Jesus“? Or was it prepared for “only certain parts of Jesus“? Which answer fits better with “a body you prepared for ME” ?
Toby, the word “ME” would include ALL that was Jesus – spirit, body……… and even the purple hair and pink fingernails if he truly had those things.
I feel that you are starting to get it now. I feel that way because you have resorted back to your usual way of talking, talking, and more talking – all while trying to ignore or skip over my questions/points.
To all…………Bottom line is Spirits are NOT BODIES of ANY KIND, Never were and never will be. Spirit are what is (IN) BODIES. No need to change or add to or switch around any of this , this is simple and clear and backed up from all Scriptures at our disposal. There exists NO SPIRIT “BODY” of any kind.
The word Spiritual deals with a Spirit (Influence) of the MIND and its effect on a BODY ONLY, and nothing more. IMO There is only one definition of the word Spirit and in it simplest Form is (INTELLECTS) that effect and animate physical minds and Bodies of all kinds.
peace and love………………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 16 2012,21:33) To all…………Bottom line is Spirits are NOT BODIES of ANY KIND, Never were and never will be. Spirit are what is (IN) BODIES. No need to change or add to or switch around any of this , this is simple and clear and backed up from all Scriptures at our disposal. There exists NO SPIRIT “BODY” of any kind. The word Spiritual deals with a Spirit (Influence) of the MIND and its effect on a BODY ONLY, and nothing more. IMO There is only one definition of the word Spirit and in it simplest Form is (INTELLECTS) that effect and animate physical minds and Bodies of all kinds.
peace and love………………………………………………gene
GeneI agree with you spirit angels ARE not body s but have a body of a sort
Mike,
You claim that angels have spirit bodies even though no scripture testifies of that. The closest it comes is spiritual bodies. That is in 1 Corinthians 15:44 and the word translated spiritual means “pneumatikós (an adjective, derived from 4151 /pneúma, “spirit”) – spiritual; relating to the realm of spirit, i.e. the invisible sphere in which the Holy Spirit imparts faith, reveals Christ, etc.”, strong’s concordance 4152.
You therefore have no direct evidence to support your claim in scripture. On the other hand a soul that has no spiritual or worldly body is naked even though it has a form, that form is composed of spirit and is called a body according to the definition of “something that embodies or gives concrete reality to a thing”, Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary.
So are angels ghosts? Why or why not.
Hi Mikeboll.
The reason you are in an endless loop is because you started something that you cannot finish.
You said that the 'Spiritual Body' is composed of 'Spirit' but you then can't define what 'Spirit' is.
Not only that but you know that Jesus is Spirit in Heaven but you say that he is 'In a Spiritual Body'.
So there are 'Two Elements':
1) Jesus the Spirit
2) The Spiritual 'Body' of Jesus the SpiritJesus the Spirit – is in a Spiritual Body.
What is 'Spirit' in each case?
Mikeboll,
Quote WHY would you assume that God first had to remove his spiritual outer perimeter and only turn THE REST of Jesus into a human being? What do you mean by 'the rest of Jesus'?
Quote WHY would you make an attempt to separate his body from the rest of him? 'Assuming that He had a Spiritual Body' then because he had an 'Earthly Body' of Flesh prepared for him so he 'would' be exactly like those who he was to minister to.
Quote Can you see how your premised is flawed to start with? It relies on the nonsensical ASSUMPTION that if Jesus had a a body, it would have had to be removed BEFORE Jesus could be made into a man. But WHY would you assume such an odd thing? This answer is the same as the answer just given in your previous question.
Quote Now, about the car analogy: Imagine that this is the Firebird from the old show Knight Rider. Remember that show? Remember how that car had its own intelligence called K.I.T.T. ? Mikeboll, K.I.T.T. is a 'Fantasy Kids TV' programme.
Quote Now, if God turned the Knight Rider car into a human being, WHY would you just assume that God would first have to remove quarter panels, rocker panels, roof, trunk and hood before He could perform this act? Oh, you are a car fanatic… Hey, I had a Buick v8 with purple leather seats and whitewalled tyres… Never use whitewall tyres unless you drive slowly or willing to risk crashing – the white rubber parts are not safe as they contain contaminants to make them white… Oh, sorry, got carried away… Mikeboll, what nonsense are you talking about… ?
Quote If the words said that God turned THE KNIGHT RIDER CAR into a human, why would you assume it ONLY MEANT K.I.T.T. – and not the WHOLE ENTIRE CAR? There you go again. What do you mean by 'Only meant K.I.T.T.'?
God did not 'Turn' Jesus into a Human Being. God put the Spirit that is Jesus into the 'Body' of a human. The 'Body' was prepared as the 'Earthly Embodiment' for his 'Spirit'.Quote Could not God turn the WHOLE ENTIRE CAR into a human being – body and all? God could turn the entire car into a 'Lifeless Flesh Body'. God would then still have to put a separate 'Spirit' into it to 'Enliven It', to make it a Living Soul.
A car does not have a 'Life Force' in it.Quote Your question was a non-question from the moment you asked it, and beneath any kind of response from me in the first place. But still I tried. Only because you cannot get out of the endless loop you created.
Quote And here is one last try: John the Baptist said that God could raise up sons of Abraham from stones. Assume those stones were geodes, with the hard, ugly, outer crust and the beautiful crystal formations on the inside. Would you then ask John the Baptist what God did with the crusty outside of the stones before turning JUST the pretty inside into sons of Abraham?
Mikeboll, you make a supposition and then ask me to ask someone who died over 2010 years ago for an answer – are you 'a King Saul'?
Quote If so, WHY? Why would you just assume that God couldn't turn the WHOLE ENTIRE STONE (crusty outside and all) into a son of Abraham?
The point of the verse was not concerning something God could do because clearly God can turn any material matter into Flesh and Blood – but that Flesh and Blood would 'still not have a Spirit' in it. It would still be a 'Dead Body' until a Spirit was put into it: 'God formed the man (Body) from the 'Dust' of the earth and Blew the Breathe of Life (Spirit) into his nostril – and the man became a 'Living' Soul'.Mikeboll, when you stop banging your head against a brick wall you will feel so much better.
When you stop this nonsense you will look back and wonder why you were doing what you are doing now.
Isn't it better to stop now.
There is no shame in admitting false ideas and adopting truthful ones.Quote (toby @ Mar. 15 2012,02:59) Hi Kerwin, Quote it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body You are perfectly correct, here. It's so simple to understand.
Mikeboll thinks that a “Spiritual Body” is “a Body belonging to a Spirit”.
But you will never hear him say that a “Natural Body” is “a Body belonging to a Nature”.I especially like the part he says about the part about Lot's Wife turning into a pillar of salt:
Quote Toby, what happened to THE BODY of Lot's wife when “she” was turned to salt? Don't you agree that her body, as a part of “she”, was also turned to salt right along with the rest of her? Is there reason to think that God first separated her from her body, and the body remained while the rest of her turned to salt?
Only asking for an opinion, but Kerwin, can you interpret this for me as it seem mikeboll won't – and it is his words – or what do you think of it? (Remember that Lot's Wife is a Body with a Spirit in it – Did the Spirit get turned into a Pillar of Salt?)
Toby,If a human being's body is turned to ashes their soul, which is spirit in content, descends to Sheol.
The same is true of Lot's wife, since Scripture does not state otherwise.
Mikeboll,
The verse from John the Baptist stating that God could raise up children to Abraham from stones is not a valid analogy.
The point of the saying is not to 'prove' that God can create children from stones because clearly if the children 'were' created from 'stones' then they would not be children from the loins of Abraham? (Unless Abraham….!)
The point was to show the stubborn (stone like) Jews that they were no more the 'Righteous Sons' of Abraham just because they they were descended from Abraham. It is a saying similar to 'it is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for an unrighteouness man to enter the kingdom of God'.
No one is really suggesting that a camel should go through a sewing needle's eye (In fact that is not actually what was alluded to anyway: one theory was that the 'Eye of a Needle' was one if the 'managed' Gates that traders had to pass through to get into Jerusalem. the merchant was not allowed thriugh unless their loaded camel was able to – this was to limit their trade to a fair proportion along with other traders. The other theory was that the 'Camel' was a shuttle that took clothing yarn through the 'Needle' of a cloth making device and was notoriously difficult to thread which briught on anger whenever the yard snapped…!)This is off topic but of some side interest, i'm sure.
Mikeboll,
You said,Quote For Who?
Was the body prepared for “Jesus”? Or was it prepared for “only certain parts of Jesus”? Which answer fits better with “a body you prepared for ME” ?
You say I don't answer you but then you ignore what I say.
I said that the Body was prepared as the embodiment of the Spirit of Jesus.
It is you who is saying '''parts of Jesus''' because it is you that claims he has a Body but cannot say what that Body is!I would like to ask you why was a 'Body prepared for Him' if he already 'had one'?
Ok… Long shot…:
1) Jesus has a Spiritual Body…
2) An Earthly Body is prepared for him to house his Spirit because the Heavenly Spirit cannot sin nor decay and Jesus needs to be exactky like those of Mankind…
3) The Spirit of Jesus Is taken out off his Spiritual Body and Put into the Earthly Body
4) Still the same question: What happened to the Spiritual Body?When Jesus died his Earthly Body was in the grave. His Spirit went up to Heaven to God : 'Father, into thy hands I commit my Spirit'
When Jesus was raised from the dead, his Spirit was put back into the Earthly Body that had been made Glorious, Sinless, Spiritual and Jesus once more became a Living Human Being.
Mikeboll, why is it that I can spell out what I am talking about using Scriptures but you can only write single bits here and there – is it because what you say would not make sense if you tried?
Surely by now you must realise it (I'm not guessing that you haven't!! Hence the increasing number of ludicrous examples of inaimste unintelligent things turned into living human beings!)
Quote (toby @ Mar. 17 2012,00:44) Mikeboll, Quote WHY would you assume that God first had to remove his spiritual outer perimeter and only turn THE REST of Jesus into a human being? What do you mean by 'the rest of Jesus'?
Quote WHY would you make an attempt to separate his body from the rest of him? 'Assuming that He had a Spiritual Body' then because he had an 'Earthly Body' of Flesh prepared for him so he 'would' be exactly like those who he was to minister to.
Quote Can you see how your premised is flawed to start with? It relies on the nonsensical ASSUMPTION that if Jesus had a a body, it would have had to be removed BEFORE Jesus could be made into a man. But WHY would you assume such an odd thing? This answer is the same as the answer just given in your previous question.
Quote Now, about the car analogy: Imagine that this is the Firebird from the old show Knight Rider. Remember that show? Remember how that car had its own intelligence called K.I.T.T. ? Mikeboll, K.I.T.T. is a 'Fantasy Kids TV' programme.
Quote Now, if God turned the Knight Rider car into a human being, WHY would you just assume that God would first have to remove quarter panels, rocker panels, roof, trunk and hood before He could perform this act? Oh, you are a car fanatic… Hey, I had a Buick v8 with purple leather seats and whitewalled tyres… Never use whitewall tyres unless you drive slowly or willing to risk crashing – the white rubber parts are not safe as they contain contaminants to make them white… Oh, sorry, got carried away… Mikeboll, what nonsense are you talking about… ?
Quote If the words said that God turned THE KNIGHT RIDER CAR into a human, why would you assume it ONLY MEANT K.I.T.T. – and not the WHOLE ENTIRE CAR? There you go again. What do you mean by 'Only meant K.I.T.T.'?
God did not 'Turn' Jesus into a Human Being. God put the Spirit that is Jesus into the 'Body' of a human. The 'Body' was prepared as the 'Earthly Embodiment' for his 'Spirit'.Quote Could not God turn the WHOLE ENTIRE CAR into a human being – body and all? God could turn the entire car into a 'Lifeless Flesh Body'. God would then still have to put a separate 'Spirit' into it to 'Enliven It', to make it a Living Soul.
A car does not have a 'Life Force' in it.Quote Your question was a non-question from the moment you asked it, and beneath any kind of response from me in the first place. But still I tried. Only because you cannot get out of the endless loop you created.
Quote And here is one last try: John the Baptist said that God could raise up sons of Abraham from stones. Assume those stones were geodes, with the hard, ugly, outer crust and the beautiful crystal formations on the inside. Would you then ask John the Baptist what God did with the crusty outside of the stones before turning JUST the pretty inside into sons of Abraham?
Mikeboll, you make a supposition and then ask me to ask someone who died over 2010 years ago for an answer – are you 'a King Saul'?
Quote If so, WHY? Why would you just assume that God couldn't turn the WHOLE ENTIRE STONE (crusty outside and all) into a son of Abraham?
The point of the verse was not concerning something God could do because clearly God can turn any material matter into Flesh and Blood – but that Flesh and Blood would 'still not have a Spirit' in it. It would still be a 'Dead Body' until a Spirit was put into it: 'God formed the man (Body) from the 'Dust' of the earth and Blew the Breathe of Life (Spirit) into his nostril – and the man became a 'Living' Soul'.Mikeboll, when you stop banging your head against a brick wall you will feel so much better.
When you stop this nonsense you will look back and wonder why you were doing what you are doing now.
Isn't it better to stop now.
There is no shame in admitting false ideas and adopting truthful ones.
TobyKeep this up and we will all go for rope dancing and some circling to.
No essence yetToby
You are doing fine
Mb you say this ……… Toby says do not like it so not good
Mb you say that ……….Toby. This does not make sense,
Mb you say again”………Toby. It no substance
Mb you say like this “..”…Toby this is not true really come on ……..
After 200 times we still turning in circle with the same people,
It is totally obvious that they do not recognize Christ as. A being before he was send from being with the father ,so what the use to drag this on
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2012,17:44) Toby, If a human being's body is turned to ashes their soul, which is spirit in content, descends to Sheol.
The same is true of Lot's wife, since Scripture does not state otherwise.
Hi Kerwin,So you are saying 'No, the Spirit that was in Lot's wife was not turned into a Pillar of salt when her flesh and blood body was.
And that the same Spirit went out of the body (whether of flesh or as Salt) and went to (Sheol) to await judgement day as Scriptures says of the dead (that is – those who are not the Elect because the Elect are already judged righteous).Thank you and well said on this point.
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