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Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,02:27) Quote (toby @ Feb. 18 2012,16:39) Huh? Terraricca, I thought the idea was to show how a Spirit has a body in the spirit realm?
Are you saying that you cannot do this?
tobywell were are you ??
Terraricca,Huh?
And Huh!
The question is for you to answer?
Quote (toby @ Feb. 19 2012,15:12) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,02:27) Quote (toby @ Feb. 18 2012,16:39) Huh? Terraricca, I thought the idea was to show how a Spirit has a body in the spirit realm?
Are you saying that you cannot do this?
tobywell were are you ??
Terraricca,Huh?
And Huh!
The question is for you to answer?
tobyyou are talking with me and Mike on this subject, so answer my question, what is yours in reverse ,
and do not be the religious guy that can not talk or as so much ego he can not answer or learn some thing,
we have clarified what we mean by body this I believe you now understand
so as for the wind ,you better go back and read the scriptures ,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2012,08:10) I didn't care for your long-winded nonsense posts when you came here as JA. I didn't care for them when you came as Istari. And I don't care for them now that you're Toby.
Excuse me? I have never ever posted with those names? Are you feeling OK??Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2012,08:10) Toby, I didn't care for your long-winded nonsense posts when you came here as JA. I didn't care for them when you came as Istari. And I don't care for them now that you're Toby.
Long winded? Do you say this to every poster who comes here? Wow!Goodbye!
Mikeboll, Why are you referring me to Gene? If I wish to talk with Gene, then I will decide to do so when I desire to do so, thank you. And if Gene wishes to dialogue with me, then he will do so when he desires to do so, thanks.
So, this is your exit strategy? Well, very poor it is, just as much as the rest of your ideas. (Badly thought out, badly linked, a muddle of ideas, ever changing theme, redefined words, false allegations against me… What else?
)You asked to confine this discussion to 'Spirits in Heaven, like Jesus, Angels and God, yet you keep coming back to the only thing you think you have as evidence: 'Spiritual Body' that Mankind will acquire.
Even this makes no sense, as this is still speaking of the Body of a human being, not an Angel, Jesus in Heaven, or God (Remind me why you exclude the Holy Spirit? Is it because the Holy Spirit (Spirit) does not have a body?)
When Jesus was dead in the grave, and his Spirit was with God, did it have a Body then? When Steven died and he committed his Spirit to Jesus, did Steven's Spirit have a body? Did any of the Demon Spirits encountered in the Body of Men have bodies of their own – or were they as Gene says?
Quote (toby @ Feb. 19 2012,15:51) Mikeboll, Why are you referring me to Gene? If I wish to talk with Gene, then I will decide to do so when I desire to do so, thank you. And if Gene wishes to dialogue with me, then he will do so when he desires to do so, thanks. So, this is your exit strategy? Well, very poor it is, just as much as the rest of your ideas. (Badly thought out, badly linked, a muddle of ideas, ever changing theme, redefined words, false allegations against me… What else?
)You asked to confine this discussion to 'Spirits in Heaven, like Jesus, Angels and God, yet you keep coming back to the only thing you think you have as evidence: 'Spiritual Body' that Mankind will acquire.
Even this makes no sense, as this is still speaking of the Body of a human being, not an Angel, Jesus in Heaven, or God (Remind me why you exclude the Holy Spirit? Is it because the Holy Spirit (Spirit) does not have a body?)
When Jesus was dead in the grave, and his Spirit was with God, did it have a Body then? When Steven died and he committed his Spirit to Jesus, did Steven's Spirit have a body? Did any of the Demon Spirits encountered in the Body of Men have bodies of their own – or were they as Gene says?
tobyQuote When Jesus was dead in the grave, and his Spirit was with God, did it have a Body then? When Steven died and he committed his Spirit to Jesus, did Steven's Spirit have a body? Did any of the Demon Spirits encountered in the Body of Men have bodies of their own – or were they as Gene says? then it is a CELESTIAL SOUP” RIGHT ,?
???you are so miss guided that you do not even understand that all things that God created VISIBLE OR NOT THEY DID NOT EXIST PRIOR TO THERE CREATION AND SO DID NOT OCCUPIED A SPACE OR VOLUME (BODY)
WEN GOD MADE THE NUCLEUS IN THE ATOM EVEN THERE IT AS A BODY SCIENCE NOW FOUND and BELIEVE THAT EVEN IN THE
EMPTINESS IN SPACE IS IN FACT NOT EMPTYBUT ALL THINGS HAVE A BODY OF HIS OWN.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,09:16) toby then it is a CELESTIAL SOUP” RIGHT ,?
???you are so miss guided that you do not even understand that all things that God created VISIBLE OR NOT THEY DID NOT EXIST PRIOR TO THERE CREATION AND SO DID NOT OCCUPIED A SPACE OR VOLUME (BODY)
WEN GOD MADE THE NUCLEUS IN THE ATOM EVEN THERE IT AS A BODY SCIENCE NOW FOUND and BELIEVE THAT EVEN IN THE
EMPTINESS IN SPACE IS IN FACT NOT EMPTYBUT ALL THINGS HAVE A BODY OF HIS OWN.
Pierre
Hi Terraricca. Thank you for your thoughts. I see you are still discussing things from the point of view of the physical realm. Terraricca, the discussion is regarding the Spirit realm – Heaven. The word 'Spirit' = 'Incorporeal, Invisible, Immaterial, Without (material) Form or Shape, as opposed to Body'. No discussion can be meaningful when the parties in the discussion can devise their own definitions of the elements of the discussion. A 'Body' is defined as 'Having material Form and Shape, Corporeal, and Physical, as Opposed to the Spirit'. I can define the parameters of the discussion and stick to them. If you feel different, then please show your definitions of the core elements of the discussion: Spirit, Body and Spirit realm (Heaven). These parameters need to be defined, otherwise all discussions on this topic are immaterial and lack understanding of the topic. Without parameters, the Spirit of the discussion cannot be contained to fixed points. Fixing the parameters gives BODY to the discussion, and LIMITS the power of the topic. Without parameters, Terraricca, the Spirit of the topic can go off in many many different ways, and no one will know which way it blows, whether it is coming or going, from where a point is made, not where the point is going..Quote (toby @ Feb. 18 2012,15:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2012,08:10) Toby, I didn't care for your long-winded nonsense posts when you came here as JA. I didn't care for them when you came as Istari. And I don't care for them now that you're Toby.
Long winded? Do you say this to every poster who comes here?
Only to the ones who submit long-winded nonsense posts.Toby:
1. Why was Paul anxious to have his lowly body transformed into a glorious new body like the one Jesus now has, if he wasn't even going to need that body in heaven?2. Why did Paul teach that God would not leave the elect naked in heaven, but would give them a spiritual tent to replace the earthly tent they left behind?
Until you can answer those with any satisfaction, you are merely blowing smoke.
Mike…………Paul wanted a eternal living Body that could not get corrupted as his Present body had. He had the same problem with his “earth-ly Body as we all have , and that is the way it functions causes us to WILL, did he not say for he found NO GOOD THING is HIS (present) BODY WHY? For to “WILL” was present in (IT)> But the (BODY) with Spirit back (IN) (IT) that is from above comes (not through Adam) but from GOD the FATHER and is RAISED in POWER and HONOR, but (it) that same body was sown in dishonor a (Natural) “BODY” but (IT) is raised a Glorified “BODY” Not a raised and Glorified SPIRIT of any kind. But a BODY that is SPIRITUALLY Kept alive for ever.
We or any other created thing can not be a separate LIVING SOUL with out a BODY with SPIRIT (IN)(IT)> We are not composed of three separate things as you falsely assume , We are not, a Body, a SOUL, and a Spirit. as your metaphysical teachings insist. We are a LIVING SOUL which is, A BODY + SPIRIT in it and nothing more or less.
Mike Toby is right on this and you and your ch-hart Pierre have no idea what you both are saying and both of you just muddy the water every time you mouth off by insisting you are right and trying to make it like You agree with me is a LIE When in fact we disagree Spirit ARE NOT BODIES of ANY KIND, they never were and never will be either < Jesus Has a BODY of Flesh and BONE Just as He said He did He is also a SON OF MAN
There is no gain on this subject becasue you continue to insist scriptures are saying what in fact they are not saying at all Toby and I and many many other have pointed this out to you in a Hundred or so different ways about Subjects here, But Your Pride will not admit you are wrong about these Subjects , and the Subject of Spirits was not started by YOU either it was started by me and you change it to this Present topic. The original Topic was what is SPIRIT and I was looking for the Simplest Definition of what is Spirit, and we came to the conclusion that Spirits Were Simply (INTELLECTS) that influence our thinking and the way we see thing and are “expressed” through our WORDS>
You started immediately to distort and change that post to something you wanted. But the fact is it is still about what a Spirit is and it is not now or ever has been a Body of any kind. Its just that Simple.
Every thing TOBY say about the way you Handled this thread is right and that goes for your Co- Hart Pierre also. Every time someone comes along, You and Him both gang up on that person and start to insult and belittle and ridicule them Trying to make it like you know what you are saying, and have no idea what you are trying to say is senseless and makes no sense at all. The only one here confused Mike is You and your Co-hart Pierre. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………..gene
Gene,
The only question of this thread is whether or not angels and Jesus have bodies. You agree with me and Pierre that they do, and Toby insists that they don't.
Aren't you smart enough to know which side of the discussion you're even on?
Or is it that you are so hell-bent on disagreeing with anything I say that you can't even see which end is up anymore?
Quote (toby @ Feb. 20 2012,04:56) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,09:16) toby then it is a CELESTIAL SOUP” RIGHT ,?
???you are so miss guided that you do not even understand that all things that God created VISIBLE OR NOT THEY DID NOT EXIST PRIOR TO THERE CREATION AND SO DID NOT OCCUPIED A SPACE OR VOLUME (BODY)
WEN GOD MADE THE NUCLEUS IN THE ATOM EVEN THERE IT AS A BODY SCIENCE NOW FOUND and BELIEVE THAT EVEN IN THE
EMPTINESS IN SPACE IS IN FACT NOT EMPTYBUT ALL THINGS HAVE A BODY OF HIS OWN.
Pierre
Hi Terraricca. Thank you for your thoughts. I see you are still discussing things from the point of view of the physical realm. Terraricca, the discussion is regarding the Spirit realm – Heaven. The word 'Spirit' = 'Incorporeal, Invisible, Immaterial, Without (material) Form or Shape, as opposed to Body'. No discussion can be meaningful when the parties in the discussion can devise their own definitions of the elements of the discussion. A 'Body' is defined as 'Having material Form and Shape, Corporeal, and Physical, as Opposed to the Spirit'. I can define the parameters of the discussion and stick to them. If you feel different, then please show your definitions of the core elements of the discussion: Spirit, Body and Spirit realm (Heaven). These parameters need to be defined, otherwise all discussions on this topic are immaterial and lack understanding of the topic. Without parameters, the Spirit of the discussion cannot be contained to fixed points. Fixing the parameters gives BODY to the discussion, and LIMITS the power of the topic. Without parameters, Terraricca, the Spirit of the topic can go off in many many different ways, and no one will know which way it blows, whether it is coming or going, from where a point is made, not where the point is going..
tobyyou key word is SPIRIT, of cause this word is your ignorance of understanding that I can see,
of cause scriptures says WE CAN NOT SEE THEM (Angel,God )but there are many other things that God created that we can not see,right ?this is were you stop your understanding,
and the word SPIRIT becomes some thing strange,some thing of a new dimension,and yet the word spirit means many things not just one thing,
Quote Without parameters, the Spirit of the discussion cannot be contained to fixed points. Fixing the parameters gives BODY to the discussion, and LIMITS the power of the topic. Without parameters,
but you seem not to understand that God is alone God and that he has a SOUL ,and so all of us has one ,and you never answer the question ,:::: is all of God s creation are separated of HIM or are IN him and so are a soup within on creator?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,10:05) is all of God s creation are separated of HIM or are IN him and so are a soup within on creator?
Toby,Pierre is wanting to know if ALL THINGS are God Himself – or if there is some outer parameter to God that distinguishes Him from all other things that are NOT God Himself.
If all things are NOT God, then there is something separating the things that are NOT God from the thing that IS God. That something is what we're calling a body. A body – inside of which exists God, and outside of which exists all the other things that are not God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2012,10:11) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2012,10:05) is all of God s creation are separated of HIM or are IN him and so are a soup within on creator?
Toby,Pierre is wanting to know if ALL THINGS are God Himself – or if there is some outer parameter to God that distinguishes Him from all other things that are NOT God Himself.
If all things are NOT God, then there is something separating the things that are NOT God from the thing that IS God. That something is what we're calling a body. A body – inside of which exists God, and outside of which exists all the other things that are not God.
Mikeboll,
The topic title is 'Do Spirits have Bodies? How about God?'. You have, for your own reasons, additionally redefined the question as: 'Do Spirit Beings in Heaven such as Jesus, Angels and God, have Bodies in the Spirit realm?' But even with this, you cannot stick to your own request.
If you are confining the topic question as you suggest, then what does the flesh and bone body of Jesus in the physical realm have to do with it. It seems you cannot refer to bodies of Angels, Jesus, nor God, in the Spirit realm, and have turned against your own parameter. Concerning the 'Spirit-ual Body' of Jesus, you said he had a Spiritual Body before coming to Earth in the 'Body prepared for him'. So let's follow this through, using your idea of Spiritual Body meaning 'a Body belonging to a Spirit', and 'Natural Body', meaning the 'Body that is created from another human (mother)':
- Jesus is in a Spiritual Body in Heaven, as a Spirit Being.
- Jesus has a Natural Body prepared for him by God, in the body of Mary.
- Jesus enters the Natural Body, and becomes a Human Being.
Now, just pause there.
Was Jesus still in his Spiritual Body when he became Man?- Jesus lives an exemplary life in his Natural Body, and gives up his Spirit to God when he dies on the Cross.
Let's pause again.
What happened to the Jesus' Spirit, while his Natural Body was dead in the grave?- Jesus is raised from the dead on the third day
Pause again.
How was Jesus raised from the dead – in what Body was he raised up? Was Jesus seen and touched in that body, for 40 days after he was raised up from the dead? Was Jesus a Spirit Being, or a Human Being, during those 40 days? So, according to your idea, the Spirit of Jesus is in a body, belonging to a Spirit, for those 40 days – a body made of Flesh and Bone, which Jesus himself said a Spirit (Being) does not have.- Jesus goes back to Heaven, after rising up into a cloud.
Pause:
Neither of us has any evidence of any change taking place at this point. All ideas are speculations.- Jesus is then referred to as both Spirit and Man in various and different Scripture verses.
It would be interesting to discover why this is. My idea is that the Apostles did not want to say to those they wished to convert, that Jesus was an Angel but a Man whom they too could aspire to be like – even as their sinful bodies could be made Spiritually like his in the present time.- So now, according to your idea, Jesus is in Heaven in his Spiritual Body again. The same type of Spiritual Body that all in Heaven have. The same type of body that Angels have, and God has, too.
Pause:
Is the Spiritual Body of Jesus exactly like that of the Spiritual bodies of Angels? (Reminder: 'Spiritual body' is by your definition) – Yet Jesus says 'Not': 'A Spirit does not have a body, as you see I have… Touch me and see!'- When Jesus was taken up to Heaven, an Angel spoke to those who watched and was bemused at them, saying, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking into a empty sky? This SAME Jesus will come again in like manner to that which you saw him leave!'
Pause:
In what manner did the Disciples see Jesus leave? What Body was Jesus in when he 'left'? In what Body will he be in when he returns? What Body did Jesus say he had? (Was it one of a Spirit?)- You say that Jesus was in a Spiritual Body like that of the Angels of Heaven when he was raised up from the grave (or at least you did at one stage).
Pause:
If Jesus was raised up in a Spiritual Body (in the manner you mean), then what happened to his Natural body – it did not decay – that is for sure. Was it 'stolen' as the soldiers were said to have been bribed to say?Mikeboll, it is fantastic that you can, so slowly and serruptiously, modify your ideas each time that you are shown to be wrong. I'm glad, because you then slowly grow in agreement with Scriptures, which is the aim of all good doctrinal discussions (Not a debate!). However, you could try outlining your ideas in sequence, then you will see where some don't fit.
Quote (toby @ Feb. 20 2012,15:19) Mikeboll, The topic title is 'Do Spirits have Bodies? How about God?'. You have, for your own reasons, additionally redefined the question as: 'Do Spirit Beings in Heaven such as Jesus, Angels and God, have Bodies in the Spirit realm?' But even with this, you cannot stick to your own request.
If you are confining the topic question as you suggest, then what does the flesh and bone body of Jesus in the physical realm have to do with it. It seems you cannot refer to bodies of Angels, Jesus, nor God, in the Spirit realm, and have turned against your own parameter. Concerning the 'Spirit-ual Body' of Jesus, you said he had a Spiritual Body before coming to Earth in the 'Body prepared for him'. So let's follow this through, using your idea of Spiritual Body meaning 'a Body belonging to a Spirit', and 'Natural Body', meaning the 'Body that is created from another human (mother)':
- Jesus is in a Spiritual Body in Heaven, as a Spirit Being.
- Jesus has a Natural Body prepared for him by God, in the body of Mary.
- Jesus enters the Natural Body, and becomes a Human Being.
Now, just pause there.
Was Jesus still in his Spiritual Body when he became Man?- Jesus lives an exemplary life in his Natural Body, and gives up his Spirit to God when he dies on the Cross.
Let's pause again.
What happened to the Jesus' Spirit, while his Natural Body was dead in the grave?- Jesus is raised from the dead on the third day
Pause again.
How was Jesus raised from the dead – in what Body was he raised up? Was Jesus seen and touched in that body, for 40 days after he was raised up from the dead? Was Jesus a Spirit Being, or a Human Being, during those 40 days? So, according to your idea, the Spirit of Jesus is in a body, belonging to a Spirit, for those 40 days – a body made of Flesh and Bone, which Jesus himself said a Spirit (Being) does not have.- Jesus goes back to Heaven, after rising up into a cloud.
Pause:
Neither of us has any evidence of any change taking place at this point. All ideas are speculations.- Jesus is then referred to as both Spirit and Man in various and different Scripture verses.
It would be interesting to discover why this is. My idea is that the Apostles did not want to say to those they wished to convert, that Jesus was an Angel but a Man whom they too could aspire to be like – even as their sinful bodies could be made Spiritually like his in the present time.- So now, according to your idea, Jesus is in Heaven in his Spiritual Body again. The same type of Spiritual Body that all in Heaven have. The same type of body that Angels have, and God has, too.
Pause:
Is the Spiritual Body of Jesus exactly like that of the Spiritual bodies of Angels? (Reminder: 'Spiritual body' is by your definition) – Yet Jesus says 'Not': 'A Spirit does not have a body, as you see I have… Touch me and see!'- When Jesus was taken up to Heaven, an Angel spoke to those who watched and was bemused at them, saying, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking into a empty sky? This SAME Jesus will come again in like manner to that which you saw him leave!'
Pause:
In what manner did the Disciples see Jesus leave? What Body was Jesus in when he 'left'? In what Body will he be in when he returns? What Body did Jesus say he had? (Was it one of a Spirit?)- You say that Jesus was in a Spiritual Body like that of the Angels of Heaven when he was raised up from the grave (or at least you did at one stage).
Pause:
If Jesus was raised up in a Spiritual Body (in the manner you mean), then what happened to his Natural body – it did not decay – that is for sure. Was it 'stolen' as the soldiers were said to have been bribed to say?Mikeboll, it is fantastic that you can, so slowly and serruptiously, modify your ideas each time that you are shown to be wrong. I'm glad, because you then slowly grow in agreement with Scriptures, which is the aim of all good doctrinal discussions (Not a debate!). However, you could try outlining your ideas in sequence, then you will see where some don't fit.
Tobyyou are turning all in circles,you actually YOU DO NOT KNOW
and you try to spin other in your corrupt understanding,
simple questions are not for you is it
??yesI have qualified all possible means to the word or the answer we looking for ,but NO,you still have to start from scratch,like nothing was ever said ,and looking for grammar definition this is YOUR FULL IGNORANCE PLAYING OUT
IF NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION,QUALIFY YOUR ANSWER IF YOU WANT TO BUT ANSWER OR LEAVE IT MANY DO NOT KNOW,
11 ,DID NOT KNOW WHO CHRIST WAS WHEN HE ASK WHO THEY THINK HE WAS,ONLY PETER ,
Mikeboll, Terraricca,
God is in all of his creation. Nothing exists 'Without' God. To be 'Not in God' is not as you infer. Saying God is not IN someone is, again, metaphorical. Nothing can exist without God, else God is not God. Those who choose to be 'Without' (Metaphorically outside of) God – or are in ignorance of his Omnipresence, Omniscience and Omnipotence, are said to be 'Not in God' or 'God is not in them'. God is in all of His creation. All Power and Authority is God's. Everything is made of Power and Living Beings aspires to that Power along with the Authority to wield it. Mankind, being made in the likeness of God – but limited in the sinful flesh, becomes his own God, wielding his own limited power and authority. The sinless flesh has no such restrictions. Did Jesus not hunger, did Jesus not thirst. Was Jesus not in pain and anxiety, did Jesus not sleep and cry? All of this in his sinful body, the body from the mother of a man, the natural body. Yet, in his sinless body he had power to do things that the sinful body could not do.Gene, you are spot on. Mikeboll is only claiming to agree with you, because he wants to say that 'Toby is by himself on this one'. And you have rightly seen the wayward manner in which he posts, ignoring that which speaks against him (Most of the posts) and only focuses on any minor aspect he thinks he can bore a hole through.
Hi Terraricca,
What are you talking about. The post you quoted was to Mikeboll.
Why do you post a response to someone else's questions.
Do you actually have anything of value to say in this thread?
Quote (toby @ Feb. 19 2012,15:46) Gene, you are spot on. Mikeboll is only claiming to agree with you, because he wants to say that 'Toby is by himself on this one'.
Do angels have bodies? Gene says YES, Toby says NO. Yeah, I don't think Gene is agreeing with you, Toby. As much as he enjoys disagreeing with me, he doesn't on this thread.These are the questions I asked you on the previous page of this thread:
1. Why was Paul anxious to have his lowly body transformed into a glorious new body like the one Jesus now has, if he wasn't even going to need that body in heaven?2. Why did Paul teach that God would not leave the elect naked in heaven, but would give them a spiritual tent to replace the earthly tent they left behind?
If there is something resembling an answer in that last novel you posted, please re-post only the part that answers these two questions – because I don't have the time or patience to wade through all the other garbage you post. In other words, if you'd like the majority of people on this site to read your posts, then make them smaller and more to the point.
I await your two answers.
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