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Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 14 2012,09:18) Ed, in Pauls words … “In humility count others better than yourselves”.
Hi Shimmer,And your point is…??
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mikeboll.
The post from t8 has that error that you made of changing 'Natural Body' to 'Physical Body' when there is no text saying 'Physical Body'.
I see that Gene used the same word 'Physical' in his post not realising the error.
Once the term 'Physical' is innocently accepted it can change the context of the discussion.The word used is Natural.
Natural means that it is the sinful body procreated by sinful man (That which is born of the Flesh – is Flesh) as opposed to the Spiritual (That which is born of the (Holy Spirit) is Spirit(ual) see Footnotes/Commentary text where applicable for explanation…!!Mikeboll, what does 'Barnes' say to that verse?
Shall I post and analyse here for you?Consider if the word WAS physical: 'If there is a Physical then there is a Spiritual…
physical then contrasts with Spiritual giving the meaning of 'Not Physical' – not what was said nor meant.
Why does Barnes say to John 3:6? And the other commentators?
What is the definition of Spiritual given by them and why did no one bring this up before as it says exactly what I have been saying all along.
Mikeboll, I'm surprised you didn't mention this before.Toby,
I'm okay with you having a belief that differs from mine. You'll never change my mind about this subject, and I don't suppose I'll ever change yours. We simply disagree, so let's just leave it at that, okay?
Quote (toby @ Feb. 14 2012,09:37) Hi Mikeboll. The post from t8 has that error that you made of changing 'Natural Body' to 'Physical Body' when there is no text saying 'Physical Body'.
I see that Gene used the same word 'Physical' in his post not realising the error.
Once the term 'Physical' is innocently accepted it can change the context of the discussion.The word used is Natural.
Natural means that it is the sinful body procreated by sinful man (That which is born of the Flesh – is Flesh) as opposed to the Spiritual (That which is born of the (Holy Spirit) is Spirit(ual) see Footnotes/Commentary text where applicable for explanation…!!Mikeboll, what does 'Barnes' say to that verse?
Shall I post and analyse here for you?Consider if the word WAS physical: 'If there is a Physical then there is a Spiritual…
physical then contrasts with Spiritual giving the meaning of 'Not Physical' – not what was said nor meant.
Why does Barnes say to John 3:6? And the other commentators?
What is the definition of Spiritual given by them and why did no one bring this up before as it says exactly what I have been saying all along.
Mikeboll, I'm surprised you didn't mention this before.
Toby……….Natural to is what takes place By NATURE There are NO Spirit(physical) Bodies, Just a Physical Body controlled Spiritually. Its all about what is CONTROLLING the PHYSICAL BODY is it the natural carnal mind or the Spiritual Mind. Therefore it say 'Let this mind be in you (you physical body) that was in Jesus The Christ's “Physical Body”. Now “if the spirit of him that raised Jesus From the Dead (his body) be in you (IT) will also quicken your mortal (dead) (PHYSICAL) BODY”.peace and love……………………………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2012,09:47) Toby, I'm okay with you having a belief that differs from mine. You'll never change my mind about this subject, and I don't suppose I'll ever change yours. We simply disagree, so let's just leave it at that, okay?
Hi Mikeboll.Once again I agree with you that we differ in opinions on this issue. I was only responding to the post you quoted from t8 that was so full of errors it was unbelievable (IMO).
My mention of Barnes' commentary shows that you are cherry picking. The commentary in John 3:6 clearly shows what others see the word 'Spiritual' as meaning.
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Barnes' Notes on the Bible.
That which is born of the flesh – To show the necessity of this change, the Saviour directs the attention of Nicodemus to the natural condition of man. By “that which is born of the flesh” he evidently intends man as he is by nature, in the circumstances of his natural birth. Perhaps, also, he alludes to the question asked by Nicodemus, whether a man could be born when he was old? Jesus tells him that if this could be, it would not answer any valuable purpose; he would still have the same propensities and passions. Another change was therefore indispensable.
Is flesh – Partakes of the nature of the parent. Compare Genesis 5:3. As the parents are corrupt and sinful, so will be their descendants. See Job 14:4. And as the parents are wholly corrupt by nature, so their children will be the same. The word “flesh” here is used as meaning “corrupt, defiled, sinful.” The “flesh” in the Scriptures is often used to denote the sinful propensities and passions of our nature, as those propensities are supposed to have their seat in the animal nature. “The works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,” etc., Galatians 5:19-20. See also Ephesians 2:3; 1 Peter 3:21; 1 Peter 2:18; 1 John 2:16; Romans 8:5.
Is born of the Spirit – Of the Spirit of God, or by the agency of the Holy Spirit.
Is spirit – Is spiritual, “like” the spirit, that is, holy, pure. Here we learn:
1. that all men are by nature sinful.
2. that none are renewed but by the Spirit of God. If man did the work himself, it would he still carnal and impure.
3. that the effect of the new birth is to make men holy.
4. and, that no man can have evidence that he is born again who is not holy, and just in proportion as he becomes pure in his life will be the evidence that he is born of the Spirit.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh – This is the answer to the objection made by Nicodemus in John 3:4. Can a man enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born? Our Lord here intimates that, were even this possible, it would not answer the end; for the plant will ever be of the nature of the seed that produces it – like will beget its like. The kingdom of God is spiritual and holy; and that which is born of the Spirit resembles the Spirit; for as he is who begat, so is he who is begotten of him. Therefore, the spiritual regeneration is essentially necessary, to prepare the soul for a holy and spiritual kingdom.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible.
That which is born of the flesh, is flesh,…. Man by his natural birth, and as he is born according to the flesh of his natural parents, is a mere natural man; that is, he is carnal and corrupt, and cannot discern spiritual things; nor can he, as such, enter into, and inherit the kingdom of God; see 1 Corinthians 2:14. And therefore there is a necessity of his being born again, or of the grace of the Spirit, and of his becoming a spiritual man; and if he was to be, or could be born again of the flesh, or ever so many times enter into his mothers womb, and be born, was it possible, he would still be but a natural and a carnal man, and so unfit for the kingdom of God. By “flesh” here, is not meant the fleshy part of man, the body, as generated of another fleshy substance; for this is no other than what may be said of brutes; and besides, if this was the sense, “spirit”, in the next clause, must mean the soul, whereas one soul is not generated from another: but by flesh is designed, the nature of man; not merely as weak and frail, but as unclean and corrupt, through sin; and which being propagated by natural generation from sinful men, cannot be otherwise; for “who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one”, Job 14:4. And though the soul of man is of a spiritual nature, and remains a spirit, notwithstanding the pollution of sin; yet it being defiled with the flesh, and altogether under the power and influence of the lusts of the flesh, it may well be said to be carnal or fleshly: hence “flesh”, as it stands opposed to spirit, signifies the corruption of nature, Galatians 5:17; and such who are in a state of unregeneracy, are said to be after the flesh, and in the flesh, and even the mind itself is said to be carnal, Romans 8:5.
And that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit: a man that is regenerated by the Spirit of God, and the efficacy of his grace, is a spiritual man; he can discern and judge all things of a spiritual nature; he is a fit person to be admitted to spiritual ordinances and privileges; and appears to be in the spiritual kingdom of Christ; and has a right to the world of blessed spirits above; and when his body is raised a spiritual body, will be admitted in soul, body, and spirit, into the joy of his Lord. “Spirit” in the first part of this clause, signifies the Holy Spirit of God, the author of regeneration and sanctification; whence that work is called the sanctification of the Spirit, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, 1 Peter 1:2. And “spirit”, in the latter part, intends the internal work of grace upon the soul, from whence a man is denominated a spiritual man; and as a child bears the same name with its parent, so this is called by the same, as the author and efficient cause of it: and besides, it is of a spiritual nature itself, and exerts itself in spiritual acts and exercises, and directs to, and engages in spiritual things; and has its seat also in the spirit, or soul of man.
Vincent's Word Studies.
That which is born (τὸ γεγεννηένον)
Strictly, that which hath been born, and consequently is now before us as born. The aorist tense (John 3:3, John 3:4, John 3:5, John 3:7), marks the fact of birth; the perfect (as here), the state of that which has been born (see on 1 John 5:18, where both tenses occur); the neuter, that which, states the principle in the abstract. Compare John 3:8, where the statement is personal: everyone that is born. Compare 1 John 5:4, and 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:18.
Of the flesh (ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς)
See on John 3:14. John uses the word σάρξ generally, to express humanity under the conditions of this life (John 1:14; 1 John 4:2, 1 John 4:3, 1 John 4:7; 2 John 1:7), with sometimes a more definite hint at the sinful and fallible nature of humanity (1 John 2:16; John 8:15). Twice, as opposed to πνεῦμα, Spirit (John 3:6; John 6:63).
Of the Spirit (ἐκ τοῦ πνευματος)
The Holy Spirit of God, or the principle of life which He imparts. The difference is slight, for the two ideas imply each other; but the latter perhaps
is better here, because a little more abstract, and so contrasted with the flesh. Spirit and flesh are the distinguishing principles, the one of the heavenly, the other of the earthly economy.Geneva Study Bible.
That which is born of the flesh is {g} flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(g) That is, fleshly, namely, wholly unclean and under the wrath of God: and therefore this word flesh signifies the corrupt nature of man: contrary to which is the Spirit, that is, the man ingrafted into Christ through the grace of the Holy Spirit, whose nature is everlasting and immortal, though the strife of the flesh remains.
Mikeboll, if I post something in this thread, please don't feel that you need to respond to it. If you disagree with the content then just ignore it – no need to make it a competition of wiills.
toby
Quote 3. that the effect of the new birth is to make men holy. 4. and, that no man can have evidence that he is born again who is not holy, and just in proportion as he becomes pure in his life will be the evidence that he is born of the Spirit.
this I believe is true
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2012,08:56) And all the lexicons and scholars agree that one of the meanings of “spiritual” is “belonging to a spirit”. So why single ME out?
Why, Mikeboll, because I can more easily forgive the others their errors of understanding, but you stand head and shoulders above the rest for (possibly) misleading yourself and others.No one has ever used the term 'Belonging to a Spirit' in context of a Spirit having a Body.
Spiritual Body is not 'Body belonging to a Spirit' anymore than Fleshly Body means 'Body belonging to a Flesh' (Note the word 'a').However, it does mean aspects of a Spirit.
Therefore a Spiritual Body has aspects belonging to a Spirit.
It is Incorruptible, Powerful, Immortal, Sinless, and Glorious – exactly as apostle Paul outlined.
Also, 'Not subject to Carnal Urges' – just like a truly Heavenly Spirit.So, Fleshly Body means 'A Body with aspects of Flesh' – that is: Like an Animal, Bird, Fish or Man (as opposed to Stone, Earth, Metal or Wood).
or – Scripturally in context, 'A (Human) Body that is: Sinful, Inglorious, Corruptible and subject to Carnal Urges and therefore also Weak in Power.Hi Toby,
Are you going to turn into a pumpkin?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2012,11:25) Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 14 2012,09:18) Ed, in Pauls words … “In humility count others better than yourselves”.
Hi Shimmer,And your point is…??
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed, I agreed with what you said and followed on with my post.Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 14 2012,19:05) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2012,11:25) Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 14 2012,09:18) Ed, in Pauls words … “In humility count others better than yourselves”.
Hi Shimmer,And your point is…??
God bless
Ed J
Ed, I agreed with what you said and followed on with my post.
Hi Shimmer,I'm sorry, but I didn't understand your post.
I hope you are well. 
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (toby @ Feb. 14 2012,15:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2012,08:56) And all the lexicons and scholars agree that one of the meanings of “spiritual” is “belonging to a spirit”. So why single ME out?
Why, Mikeboll, because I can more easily forgive the others their errors of understanding, but you stand head and shoulders above the rest for (possibly) misleading yourself and others.No one has ever used the term 'Belonging to a Spirit' in context of a Spirit having a Body.
Spiritual Body is not 'Body belonging to a Spirit' anymore than Fleshly Body means 'Body belonging to a Flesh' (Note the word 'a').However, it does mean aspects of a Spirit.
Therefore a Spiritual Body has aspects belonging to a Spirit.
It is Incorruptible, Powerful, Immortal, Sinless, and Glorious – exactly as apostle Paul outlined.
Also, 'Not subject to Carnal Urges' – just like a truly Heavenly Spirit.So, Fleshly Body means 'A Body with aspects of Flesh' – that is: Like an Animal, Bird, Fish or Man (as opposed to Stone, Earth, Metal or Wood).
or – Scripturally in context, 'A (Human) Body that is: Sinful, Inglorious, Corruptible and subject to Carnal Urges and therefore also Weak in Power.
Toby……….I do agree with this and the commentaries you gave. My argument here was that we are to be resurected with a Physical Body Like Jesus a Body that will live forever, a Body that is Spiritually generated, both in physical Flesh and Mind. Mike believes we are to be raised a Spirit Body, My argument was there is no such thing as a “SPIRIT” Body, because Spirits are what is (IN) Bodies but never the Body it self.So a man can still be Flesh and Bone and still be “SPIRITUAL” in Nature. Just as he can be Flesh and blood and be Carnal in Nature.
Therefore the (IT) that is spoken of by Paul, is the “body” to be raised in power, is a Flesh “BODY”, with a SPIRITUAL NATURE. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Hi Gene.
While I agree that the body to be raised will indeed be physical, you need to understand the more subtle levels of the devious change of the word from 'Natural'. Gene, both Natural and Spiritual bodies are rightly 'Physical' so there is no need to mention it being Physical.
The author and his proponent deliberately changed the word because they know absolutely that both 'Natural' and 'Spiritual' are both 'Physical'. But by changing 'Natural' to say 'Physical' they are then contrasting 'Physical' with 'NON-Physical'.
Do you see the subtle change?
If you continue to use the word 'Physical' instead of what is written in Scriptures then you might as well accept 'Spirit Body' instead of what was actually written (SpiritUAL Body). And what about 'Flesh and blood cannot ENTER Heaven' (The text does not say 'Enter' but 'INHERIT').
We (I) have allowed for 'Spirit Being' ('Being' is never used of a Spirit in Scriptures) only because another has tried to accuse me of referring to Aspects of the Spirit as a Being. The other knew exactly what was meant but there was in fact a mild element of ambiguity which they exploited. Therefore, to avoid the ambiguity, I add the word 'Being' to 'Spirit' to enhance clarity and reduce ambiguity). In fact, since that time I have requested that 'Being' be dropped as we are now intelligent enough to distinguish the difference between a Spirit as an intelligence and force as opposed to an aspect of a Spirit.
Who now is going to be so unintelligent as to say that, for instance, 'Love' is a Spirit (Being)? Therefore now everyone can eat meat instead of drinking milk on this matter, we can drop the issue of having to write 'Spirit Being' when we mean 'a Spirit such as an Angel'.
Gene, if someone changes 'Any Word' from what is written in Scriptures then you have to challenge them – not accept it by your own understanding. Later on down the line you may find yourself having to retract your own claims when you realise you have been misdirected.
Moreover, ask 'Why' they needed to change the word. Redefining a word or term only works in favour of the one who does the redefinition – beware!
Quote (toby @ Feb. 13 2012,22:19) Why, Mikeboll, because I can more easily forgive the others their errors of understanding………….
So I'm the only one who is “unforgiveable”?Toby, considering that only two of the people who have ever posted on this thread think that angels DON'T have bodies, that is an awful lot of forgiving you have to do.
Perhaps it's time to consider that maybe……………..just maybe…………..you might be the one in error.
Hi Mikeboll.
Firstly, I didn't say you were 'unforgivable'. I said that the others were more easily forgivable.
Secondly, if you didn't post wayward to what Scriptures says, and stop redefining words, and stop changing words to try to make scriptures say what YOU want it to say, then maybe it would be easier. Also, you would not be so tortured in trying to work out how you are going to adulterate the next bit of evidence against you!So far you have said the following:
1) Jesus 'Transformed from flesh body to Spiritual body while (as, or during) ascending into the cloud.
Mikeboll, Scriptures says that he was raised up 'from the dead' in a Spiritual Body.2) You change the words 'Spiritual Body' to say 'Spirit Body' (Ok, you stopped now but it was a point of sore contention for an over extended period of time!').
Wrong, Scriptures says 'Spiritual Body' and never says 'Spirit Body', ever.3) You changed the word 'Inherit' to 'Enter' in the verse, 'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God'.
Scriptures says '….inherit the kingdom of God'.4) You decided to limit the discussion to Spirits in Heaven when the thread topic did not say so.
Mikeboll, Demon Spirits are still Spirits… The thread topic did not exclude Spirits in the physical world. I went along with you in this as it really didn't matter – you still cannot provide evidence of a Spirit having a body in Heaven. I went along with your 'altered thread topic title', as it didn't matter to me, you still cannot provide any evidence of a Spirit having a body.5) You said that Scriptures describes Angels with characteristics of a human and God giving that description to man as in the Angels around the Tabernacle.
Mikeboll, these are Symbolic descriptions only. Angels seen by mankind did not resemble those descriptions. In fact, descriptions of Angels seen by mankind are 'Non-Descript'. Further, the descriptions sightings are always of 'An Angel in the Form of a man'.6) You said that the word 'Spiritual' (one if the definitions) meant 'Belonging to a Spirit'.
I invited you to provide evidence of your understanding of what you meant in terms of a Spirit being Spiritual. So far you have provided not one bit of evidence.Mikeboll, do you ever wonder why you struggle so much with this topic?
Toby…………I agree with you about Spirit not being a Being but what is (IN) Beings. Mike thinks the Word Spirit has many meanings so he posted this is also an error on his part brother. My big disagreement with him was his insistence that there is a Spirit Body and you and i k now spirits are what are in bodies. I am Glad you are here to expound this clearly for us all and Mike to.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………….gene
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