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Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 30 2012,12:47) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 30 2012,12:39) Pierre,
I would like to have my question answered first, but I'll answer yours later.Wm
williamyou open the door of a change in the body ,what is related to Christ elected one (144k)
but not for any other,this is why I put my question to you as I did ,so answer my question because it will annul your comment ,
what is in no sin environment is not the same as in a sin environment
one is blessed the other need help
Pierre
Wlliam
?Gene as not come to this understanding,
Pierre
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 29 2012,15:11) Mike,
So the tree of life would have killed his flesh, and then he sheds it to become a spirit, doesn't sound like a transformation to me, after all he already had a spirit.Wm
Not “killed” or “shed” Wm, but TRANSFORMED. This is just speculation, because there is no way for any of us to truly know what would have happened had Adam eaten from the tree of life.Wm, you do know there are more than one meaning of “spirit” in the scriptures, right? An angel IS a spirit, but is also animated by the spirit with which God animates all living things.
The spirit inside has nothing to do with whether the being's body is natural or spiritual.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 29 2012,16:14) MIke………..We can Know because ……………………….
Gene, can you tell us all the DEFINITION of the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37?Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 30 2012,11:49) To All,
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”.If Adam had ate from the tree of life God says he would have had an immortal body. How would that body have differed from Jesus' body after the resurrection?
Wm
williamyou have open a can of worms;
if they would have eaten of the tree of live after the eat of the tree of good and evil???
If, they would have eaten of the tree of live before eating of the tree of good and evil
If ,if,if
what is true is that someone was watching over their shoulders,
My question is WHY IS IT THAT SATAN DID NOT MAKE THEM EAT OF THAT TREE (OF LIVE ) FIRST AND THEN GO TO THE TREE OF EVIL ,OR IS IT THAT THIS COMBINATION WOULD NOT WORK ??
DID SATAN KNEW WERE THE TREE OF LIVE WAS
THIS WAY OF CONVERSATION DOES NOT BRING GODS TRUTH TO US ;
Hi Mikeboll.
You said: 'So Jesus was an exception in both cases.'
So it seems you are slowly cutting Jesus out of all aspects of what Paul said to the Corinthians about the raising of the dead. First that Jesus' Spirit cannot be used to qualify as not having a body. And now you say Jesus' great defeat over death and monumental rise from the grave as a precursor for all others who will rise – cannot be used as evidence of a 'Raising of the dead into a Spiritual body' even though Jesus himself was a Human Being – which is the central tenet of what Apostle Paul states in his epistle concerning the raising up of the dead. Does the wordings of Raised in Glory, Raised in Corruption, raised in Power, Raised in Glory give you a sense of 'Being Transformed as the body is 'Raised in the Air' after being 'Raised from the Dead'. No! – when the Elect are raised from the dead they will be changed – they will be changed at their raising up. See 1 Corinth 15: 51-52 … “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all change be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the first trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the Dead will be raised Incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” …
Mikeboll, there is no pause of speech between the dead being raised and the Body being changed. The verse expicitly states that the 'Dead will be raised Incorruptible'. Furthermore, 1 Thess 4:16 says … “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” The Dead in Christ will rise first after they have been changed. There is no verse nor statement in ]any Scripture text that says Jesus' body was changed as he rose in the air – Mikeboll, this is your invention – else show your evidence. My evidence of change at the Resurrection is exactly as written in the epistle and elsewhere.
Paul wrote … “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must cloth itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53 … Then the believers will be caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus.
1) The trumpet sounds
2) Those of the dead in Christ are Raised from the Dead: In Power, in Incorruption, in Glory – in a Spiritual Body.
3) Those that have not yet died will be changed in a Twinkling of an Eye.
4) Then they rise up in the air to meet ChristNo text says 'The dead will be raised up – and then rise in the air to be changed' nor any wording to that effect. Do you agree this is so?
If not then show me EXACTLY.Thank you Mikeboll – i am looking forward to an honest Christian response.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 30 2012,02:34) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 30 2012,09:15) Hi Pierre, Are you going to play the game that you usually play?
Quote
'i ask you but you do not answer,see i told you he he cant answer,
he as no truth'
…Pierre's usual game playing responce
God bless
Ed J
edjI have no clue where it came from ,and why?? get the full quote or forget it .
but I have respond to your question and you did not answer me why
Pierre
Hi Pierre,I told you; because those two questions you posed did not make any sense, that's why.
If you would be so kind as to restructure them, then I will give you answers; OK?If you don't even remember what you asked, then it is probably isn't even worth repeating.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mikeboll, how are you?
You said in one of your post to me … “Jesus was raised from the dead in the same exact, human, flesh and bone body that he died in.”
I seem to read that Apostle Paul, in his Epistle to the Corinthians concerning how the dead are raised up, said the following in (1 Corinth 15) … 'That which is sown is not the same as that which is raised up'. Yet Mikeboll, you say it was the same exact body of Jesus that was raised up from the dead.
1 Corin 15:42 … 'So also is the resurrection (Raising up) of the dead. The Body is sown in Corruption, it (the Body) is raised in Incorruption'. … The body that was sown in death is not the same exact body that is raised up but has been Changed from its inglorious sinful corruptible state into a new incorruptible, sinless and glorious state. Think of this: A potter makes a vessel from clay. In its initial state it is corruptible – it is easily misshapened by even slight pressure and even gravity due to it still being wet. Now, the potter 'Buries' that vessel in the furnace – and when it's due time is over, the vessel is removed in a new incorruptible state. It is glazed and shining – different from its dull unglazed state. It is not the material matter of the vessel (the flesh) that has changed – but the its state. The vessel is still CLAY – the Body is still Flesh – the shape and form are still the same (the vessel is still the same shape). Jesus still looked like Jesus but with a Spiritual Glow of a fresh unsullied un-aging body (see: 2 Kings 5:54 concerning Naaman in terms of cleansed body looking like the flesh of child).
Is it any wonder that the Disciples did not immediately recognise Jesus considering the state of his body when he died – and that they had not yet believed in the full everlasting resurrection of the dead seeing that those who had previously been temporarily resurrected were exactly the same as they had died.
Should these have pre-emptied Christ in the full rising? Of course not!
1 Corin 15:44 … 'It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body'.
The natural state (like malleable slippery clay for the vessel). And – The spiritual state (like the glazed clay vessel).
(The vessel: First the malleable clay body – then the solid formed glazed shining body.)
Paul previously defines 'The Natural Man' and the 'Spiritual Man' in 1 Corinthians 2: 14-15, showing that the Natural Man that comes first cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God'. But the Spiritual Man (Born of the Holy Spirit at his rebirth (reference Jesus' speech to Nicodemus) can receive them by Spiritual Discernment…
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 30 2012,09:49) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 30 2012,11:49) To All,
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”.If Adam had ate from the tree of life God says he would have had an immortal body. How would that body have differed from Jesus' body after the resurrection?
Wm
williamyou have open a can of worms;
if they would have eaten of the tree of live after the eat of the tree of good and evil???
If, they would have eaten of the tree of live before eating of the tree of good and evil
If ,if,if
what is true is that someone was watching over their shoulders,
My question is WHY IS IT THAT SATAN DID NOT MAKE THEM EAT OF THAT TREE (OF LIVE ) FIRST AND THEN GO TO THE TREE OF EVIL ,OR IS IT THAT THIS COMBINATION WOULD NOT WORK ??
DID SATAN KNEW WERE THE TREE OF LIVE WAS
THIS WAY OF CONVERSATION DOES NOT BRING GODS TRUTH TO US ;
Terricca………….. A Can of worms for you maybe, but for us who understand what it say it is the truth of GOD . Is there no ending of you people denying the scriptures and what they say?. The only IF IF IF Here is your ignorance about what we are talking about Pierre.God “PLAINLY SAID” If they ATE of the TREE of LIFE they would NEVER DIE, so he removed them fro the garden and sate a flaming sword to prevent them from getting to it> You mouth off about scripture, scripture, but when they are produced then you deny them, or divert off in another direction trying to deny them.
You try to reason any way you can around it but the fact are still there for anyone who truly wants the truth, IMO
peace and Love……………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2012,09:42)
Gene, can you tell us all the DEFINITION of the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37?
Mikeboll, can you tell us all the definition of the word 'Body' in any credible dictionary? Please.Quote (toby @ Jan. 29 2012,16:54) Hi Mikeboll. You said: 'So Jesus was an exception in both cases.'
So it seems you are slowly cutting Jesus out of all aspects of what Paul said to the Corinthians about the raising of the dead.
Hi Toby,I asked you a simple question, and got two novels back in return, neither of which addressed my question. Here it is again, from 5 pages ago:
In my understading, the body in which Jesus was raised was the same flesh and bone body in which he died. He died as a human being, and was raised as a human being – the same human being in the same human body.
Do we agree on this, or do our understandings differ?
And to begin to answer your first novel:
Are you saying that Jesus existed first as flesh, and then as a spirit being?Because on the other thread, you agreed that Jesus existed as a sentient being before being made in the likeness of flesh. And if that is true, then we both AGREE on at least one aspect of Jesus being the exception to the rule of Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15.
And by directly answering my italicized question above, we'll move closer to finding out whether or not we agree on Jesus' second exception to the rule.
Quote (toby @ Jan. 29 2012,17:21) You said in one of your post to me … “Jesus was raised from the dead in the same exact, human, flesh and bone body that he died in.” I seem to read that Apostle Paul, in his Epistle to the Corinthians concerning how the dead are raised up, said the following in (1 Corinth 15) … 'That which is sown is not the same as that which is raised up'. Yet Mikeboll, you say it was the same exact body of Jesus that was raised up from the dead.
Oops,I stand corrected – sort of. I assume from this second novel that your direct answer to my previous question is “No, Mike, I don't believe that Jesus was raised in the same body he died in, and here's why……………..”
Let me ask you this:
Was Lazarus raised back from the dead in the same body in which he died, or in a new, spiritual body?Also, since I assume your answer was that Jesus was NOT raised up in his old body:
Was Jesus raised up with a regular old human being body – or was he raised up as a spirit being with one of those bodies that “all angels can manifest when on earth”?
MIke ………Toby and I both ask you to define the WORD BODY from a creditable dictionary for us. Maybe that will help ypu understand what a body (IS).
Now you ask did God raise up Jesus same DEAD BODY that answer is YES HE DID , The ONLY DIFFERENCE is that BODY could NO LONGER DIE. Why do i say it was the same body>
Psa16:10…….> For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
let me paraphrase it for you Mike………….For you will not leave my soul (body) in hell ( the grave) neither will you suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption . where? (IN the GRAVE)
Mike that is what happens to a body when it is in a grave it corrupts and turns back to dust from which (IT) came , Jesus' Body did Not corrupt (IN) the grave. it wasn't there long enough to “corrupt”, or decay, (IT) that same Body, was resurected and given eternal life giving spirit to maintain (IT) for ever. (IT) that same BODY can NO LONGER DIE. IMO
peace and love………………………………….gene
Gene,
I agree with you that Jesus was raised in the exact same flesh, blood, and bone body in which he died.
As far as your “body” definition, don't you think you should give ME the definition of “spirit” in Luke 24:37 first? I've been asking for two months.
Mikeboll, you asked me:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2012,08:29) Was Lazarus raised back from the dead in the same body in which he died, or in a new, spiritual body? Lazarus was resurrected in the same body he died in – that's why he died again.
Lazarus and the Widow's son and the Soldier's daughter and Jairus's daughter and others all were raised up in their natural body.
Their natural body that was sinful, subject to death and decay, inglorious and corruptible.
Should it be that these preceded the everlasting resurrection of Christ Jesus?
No, they were merely pre-cursors to that which would come later.
Just as the animal blood sacrifice was not a permanent sacrifice but only a precursor to the sacrifice of the blood of Christ
(Hence the correctly used term by him of 'Flesh and Bone' in reference to his resurrected body).Mikeboll, you also asked:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2012,08:29) Also, since I assume your answer was that Jesus was NOT raised up in his old body: Mikeboll, I said Jesus was raised up in his same Body that was now Spiritual.
Now with Power, now incorruptible, now Glorified, now Everlasting.
For this reason he also retained the holes in his body made by the nails as a sign, as a memorial to his triumph.
As evidence that it was he, Jesus Christ – the very same evidence he himself used to convince the most doubtful of all the disciples.Mikeboll, you asked:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2012,08:29) Was Jesus raised up with a regular old human being body – or was he raised up as a spirit being with one of those bodies that “all angels can manifest when on earth”? Mikeboll, you offer up only two possibilities and demand that I choose one as an answer – I don't think so!
When asking someone to make a choice, at least one of the choices must be an honest answer.
And since neither of them is an honest answer there can be no answer.
Choice one is invalid and is responded to in my previous point above.
Choice two is invalid as Angels do not have bodies – least of all ones of Flesh and Bone!The manifestation of a form of a Body by an Angel is just that: Manifestation of the Form.
They do not manifest a permanent form of a body as their abode is in Heaven.
Why would a bird be happy to be constrained in the body of a cage when it is capable of being free in the open air?
The Spirit is a force of energy and intellect.
Energy is the building block of matter (All Physical material things).
This is not a secret – it is common Science knowledge in this day and age.
The Angel Spirit, the Holy Angel Spirit, has permission from God to manifest itself in the form of a human body when it is to converse with human beings.
No Holy Angel Spirit seen by mankind is visually different from another.
They are all non-descript in features and said to be wearing pure white robes.
Why would an invisible being need clothes?And I wouldn't need to write a Novel if you weren't so resistant to truth!
Additionally, my 'Novel' contains no errors in consistency despite their length and repitition!
No matter how many times you ignore the parts you disagree with – only to have me repeat them to you as you accuse me of not saying them or try to put your own spin on what I actually said. So, I see that you dare not post a definition of 'Body' from a credible dictionary source – or can you, please? Or should I?toby
Quote uote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2012,08:29)
Was Jesus raised up with a regular old human being body – or was he raised up as a spirit being with one of those bodies that “all angels can manifest when on earth”?Mikeboll, you offer up only two possibilities and demand that I choose one as an answer – I don't think so!
When asking someone to make a choice, at least one of the choices must be an honest answer.
And since neither of them is an honest answer there can be no answer.
Choice one is invalid and is responded to in my previous point above.
Choice two is invalid as Angels do not have bodies – least of all ones of Flesh and Bone!The manifestation of a form of a Body by an Angel is just that: Manifestation of the Form.
They do not manifest a permanent form of a body as their abode is in Heaven.
Why would a bird be happy to be constrained in the body of a cage when it is capable of being free in the open air?
The Spirit is a force of energy and intellect.
Energy is the building block of matter (All Physical material things).
This is not a secret – it is common Science knowledge in this day and age.
The Angel Spirit, the Holy Angel Spirit, has permission from God to manifest itself in the form of a human body when it is to converse with human beings.
No Holy Angel Spirit seen by mankind is visually different from another.
They are all non-descript in features and said to be wearing pure white robes.
Why would an invisible being need clothes?And I wouldn't need to write a Novel if you weren't so resistant to truth!
Additionally, my 'Novel' contains no errors in consistency despite their length and repitition!
No matter how many times you ignore the parts you disagree with – only to have me repeat them to you as you accuse me of not saying them or try to put your own spin on what I actually said. So, I see that you dare not post a definition of 'Body' from a credible dictionary source – or can you, please? Or should I?from Mike tree little questions ;you have made a big speech but NO SCRIPTURES,NO ANSWER,BUT OFFER A DEVIATION TO THE QUESTION ,AND THEN PROPOSE TO LENGTHENING YOUR QUOTE TO A NOVEL,SELF INFLATION
you should use scripture truth to show Gods wisdom and not inflated opinions,
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 01 2012,02:51) from Mike tree little questions ;you have made a big speech but NO SCRIPTURES,NO ANSWER,BUT OFFER A DEVIATION TO THE QUESTION ,AND THEN PROPOSE TO LENGTHENING YOUR QUOTE TO A NOVEL,SELF INFLATION you should use scripture truth to show Gods wisdom and not inflated opinions,
Pierre
Terrarica, are you really that insecure?
Was there a need for you to say what you did?
I bet if I took a quick look I could find plenty of other long posts.Wow, a whole forum of them!
My advice to you Terrarica is that if you have nothing positive to add to a conversation then don't say it!
Hi SeekingTruth and Mikeboll.
Mikeboll said:
Quote 'The spirit inside has nothing to do with whether the being's body is natural or spiritual.' Can you see this getting very recursive?
If the Body of the Spirit contains a Spirit then does the Spirit inside the body of the Spirit have a body?
If 'yes' then is it a Spiritual Body (Mikeboll, your definition of 'Body of a Spirit')?
And if it has a Spiritual Body then is there a Spirit inside the Spiritual Body of the Spirit inside the Spiritual Body of the Spirit?If 'no' then a Spirit does not have a Body and something is very wrong with the theory.
Hi Mikeboll.
You said earlier that Jesus was raised from the dead in exactly the same flesh and bone body he was buried in. You also asked me if Lazarus was raised up in the exact same body he was buried in. I answered you in a previous post that Lazarus was raised up in the exactly same body he was buried in. Additionally to that, he was immediately recognised by everyone present and afterwards who previously knew him (obviously).
Now, here is the thing: Jesus was NOT recognised immediately by all who previously new him. Jesus had to prove himself to some. The reason was as described by Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians: 'It (The body of Jesus) was raised incorruptible (Raised in Incorruption). The scars his scourging and the head wounds from the crown of thorns were removed from his body as part of the process of becoming Incorruptible. However, the scars from the nails on the Cross are a symbol of the triumph over Death – and we're not removed. Jesus will forever bear these scars (Hence Revelations depicts Jesus, symbolically, as a 'Lamb as if slaughtered').
There is no recorded of an event in which Jesus' flesh and bone body was transformed into a Spiritual Body (as you see the term 'Spiritual body': Body of a Spirit!). The recorded event was 'At the resurrection of the dead' recorded in Scriptures by 1 Corinthians 15, and in Thessalonians. Both books state that the dead are changed at their 'Resurrection' (or, for those who are not dead at the time, in a twinkling of an eye). Only after that event do they rise up in the air to meet with Christ.
To stop all this jumping around and too-ing and fro-ing, I have shown an event process. If you disagree with this then please show me how you arrive at your theory. I mean that it will greatly help to see where one or other of us is going wrong in our thinking. Thank you.
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