Do spirits have bodies?

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 23 2012,03:34)

Hi Mike.

As far as I can see, NETBible 'Notes' is the only “dictionary” that gives a definition of 'Spiritual', as meaning what you have pointed out. Can you back your claim any better? (From a number of other sources?)

The reason I say that, is because quite a while back, when you were looking for the meaning to the word 'Celestial', someone found ONE single place that included Angels, yet, to most… 'Celestial' is something in the Heavens, such as the Moon and the Stars.

Thanks Mike.

Hi Shimmer,

This is from the commentator Barnes:
It is raised a spiritual body – Not a mere spirit, for then it would not be a body. The word spiritual (πνευματικόν pneumatikon) here stands opposed to the word natural, or animal. It will not be a body that is subject to the laws of the vital functions, or organized or sustained in that way. It will still be a “body” (σῶμα sōma), but it will have so far the nature of spirit as to be without the vital functions which here control the body.

Helps Word Studies says:
4152 pneumatikós (an adjective, derived from 4151 /pneúma, “spirit”) – spiritual; relating to the realm of spirit,

A spiritual body would be a body related to the realm of spirit, such as the realm in which angels live.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon (which can be viewed here), has as its second definition:
belonging to spirit, ie: spiritual powers

James Strong (which can be viewed here), has as one of his definitions: (divinely)supernatural

And Shimmer, I posted all the commentators about 2 Cor 5:1-4 a few pages ago. Read that passage and see if you agree Paul is talking about our natural bodies versus the elect's soon to come spiritual bodies. Notice how he says God won't leave us “naked”, but will clothe us in a dwelling (body) that is different from our earthly dwelling (body).

January 24, 2012 at 12:20 am#274033

Blocked

Quote (toby @ Jan. 23 2012,04:40)

The pivotal point is the use of the flesh based term 'Man' in that verse.

It is agreed that Jesus is Spirit in Heaven – So how does Paul allude to Jesus being 'Man from Heaven'? Why not 'Spirit from Heaven'?

And does your theory hold as much water once you know that the word “man” isn't even in the Greek text? Because it isn't.

Quote (toby @ Jan. 23 2012,04:40)

And Mikeboll, Can you point out where I 'Admit to an error' over the meaning of 'Spirit'?

Go back to when you first started posting in this thread. Gene was (as always) insisting on the ONE meaning of “spirit” in the scriptures, you claimed that there were TWO – neither of which was “spirit BEING”. Then we talked about Luke 24:37, and you agreed that the meaning of “spirit” in that verse was indeed “spirit BEING”.

Quote (toby @ Jan. 23 2012,04:40)

And, now you state that 'Spiritual' includes all 'Intellectual Beings', does that not now weaken your argument concerning 'Spiritual Body'?

Actually, it strengthens my argument, by not allowing you to use scriptures such as “putting on the spiritual man” as support for your view.

Any MIND can be spiritual. Any PERSON can be spiritual. But a spiritual BODY is one that no longer needs day to day sustenance such as food, sleep, and water. So no one on earth has a spiritual BODY – even though they might be a spiritual PERSON, ie: a person who is allowing themselves to be led by spirit instead of flesh. (Pay attention to all the times “spirit” is used as an antonym of “flesh”, Toby. If one is being led by flesh, then they are NOT being led by spirit. Likewise, if one has a fleshly body, they do NOT have a spiritual body. Spiritual bodies are NOT made of flesh and bone, as was the one Jesus was raised from the dead in.)

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Jesus' flesh and bone body was put in the Grave/Tomb without the Spirit in it. It was raised up (Resurrected) again three Days and Nights later as an 'Incorruptable, Everlasting, Glorious Body' – Spiritual Body

And then, according to you, he “shed” that body upon his ascension to heaven, right? So in Phil 3:20-21, Paul is anxious to receive a glorious new body like the one Jesus doesn't even have any more?

No, that can't be right. The implication is that Paul is anxious to have his lowly FLESHLY body transformed into a body like the glorious new one Jesus HAS RIGHT NOW – not like the glorious body Jesus “shed” when he went to heaven. It would make no sense for Paul to be anxious to be transformed into a body he knows he won't even need in heaven.

Toby, we agree that Jesus became a spirit. Did this happen when he was raised? Or when he ascended to heaven?

January 24, 2012 at 2:48 am#274050

seekingtruth

Participant

Mike,

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2012,06:14)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 22 2012,22:28)

this also means they are not made of flesh or God would not have had to alter their perception to see them.

Wm,

We're not too different after all. I used those same two examples (Balaam and Elisha) in a post to Wakeup just last night! I agree with you that God can open our eyes to see angels, and not that they “manifest” or “create” bodies when they come to earth. Otherwise, Balaam's angel would have had to “create” two different bodies – one that only the donkey could see, and one that both the donkey and Balaam could see.

We may differ more than you thought, in those two cases the spiritual beings were in their natural state, requiring eyes to be opened to see them, however I do believe angels can temporarily manifest a body if so desired to accomplish an interaction with man.

Quote

So I agree with you that angels aren't made of flesh. Here's are two main differences, as I see it:

1. You don't think “those of heaven” in 1 Cor 15:48 includes those already dwelling in heaven – such as angels. I think the present tense means that angels are exactly who Paul is referring to. He is answering the question, “What kind of bodies will the dead be raised in”, remember? And his answer is, “Spiritual bodies, like those of heaven have”.

Why would this NOT include the angels, Wm?

His audience was human beings and he was talking to them about “How are the dead raised?”

48 All people belong to the earth. They are like that first man of earth. But those who belong to heaven are like that man of heaven. 49 We were made like that man of earth, so we will also be made like that man of heaven.

Quote

2. You seem to agree that angels aren't made of flesh. And I assume you don't think God is made of flesh. And you know the scripture that tells us “flesh and blood” can't inherit God's Kingdom. And you know the scripture that tells us “spirits don't have flesh and bone”. So what exactly are you thinking about Jesus, then? Scripture says he became a SPIRIT, but you have asked for a backup scripture, as if that one is not enough. 1 Cor 15:48 says Jesus is now “like those of heaven”, but you think that phrase excludes the angels for some reason. So where does that leave us?

Wm, do you think Jesus is the only being in heaven who consists of flesh and bone, and is therefore the only non-spirit being in heaven?

Actually since I believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God I'm pretty sure He is unique anyway. However as to being the only non-spiritual being, I never said that He was non-spiritual, as I believe He is a spiritual being with a flesh component.

January 24, 2012 at 3:56 am#274056

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2012,03:36)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,13:11)

Pierre,
To be honest, I didn't understand the first part. I know that your just learning English but I have enough issues from mis-understandings with people who only speak English. I will gladly try to answer your questions if you'll present them one at a time and be patient with me as I try to understand.

Thanks – Wm

william

no arm done ,and my christian love goes to you and yours,

in my quote to you were I quoted Eze 28;12-
were the description of Satan is made,and so see the material in his making,

and so try to make you understand that has individuals all beings no matter who they are they have a distinct form or type of body,this would make sense because they all have a individual SOUL even God as a SOUL,no one share his SOUL ,

this was all my argument the word HUMANITY = SPIRIT but like humanity is not one person so it is with SPIRIT Beings ,

spirit can also mean other things like ;desires ,thoughts,learning things ,view points ect….

Pierre

Pierre,
I agree with your post and that spirit is attributed to peoples desires, thoughts, etc.. but I believe that there are also spirits which embody those same characteristics.

January 24, 2012 at 6:31 am#274061

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,20:56)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2012,03:36)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2012,13:11)

Thanks – Wm

william

no arm done ,and my christian love goes to you and yours,

in my quote to you were I quoted Eze 28;12-
were the description of Satan is made,and so see the material in his making,

this was all my argument the word HUMANITY = SPIRIT but like humanity is not one person so it is with SPIRIT Beings ,

spirit can also mean other things like ;desires ,thoughts,learning things ,view points ect….

Pierre

Pierre,
I agree with your post and that spirit is attributed to peoples desires, thoughts, etc.. but I believe that there are also spirits which embody those same characteristics.

william

Quote

but I believe that there are also spirits which embody those same characteristics.

could you explain what you mean by this ??

Pierre

January 24, 2012 at 11:33 am#274080

seekingtruth

Participant

Pierre
Below are many examples where I believe they show that there can be a spiritual aspect to human emotions/abilities. Some are evil some are good. In a couple of cases the “spirit” is cast out and the person delivered. Just to be clear I believe these are extreme cases of normal emotions/abilities.

1 John 4:1 My dear friends, many false prophets are in the world now. So don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God.
1 John 4:6 But we are from God. So the people who know God listen to us. But the people who are not from God don’t listen to us. This is how we know the Spirit that is true and the spirit that is false.
Revelation 1:4 From John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from the one who is, who always was, and who is coming; and from the seven spirits before his throne;
Revelation 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb standing in the center near the throne with the four living beings around it. The elders were also around the Lamb. The Lamb looked as if it had been killed. It had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God that were sent into all the world.
Revelation 16:14 These evil spirits are the spirits of demons. They have power to do miracles. They go out to the rulers of the whole world to gather them for battle on the great day of God All-Powerful.
Revelation 19:10 Then I bowed down before the angel’s feet to worship him. But the angel said to me, “Don’t worship me! I am a servant like you and your brothers and sisters who have the truth of Jesus. So worship God! Because the truth of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Numbers 5:30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
2 Chronicles 21:16 Moreover the LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians:
Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isaiah 28:6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Hosea 4:12 My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
1 Corinthians 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

January 24, 2012 at 4:09 pm#274104

Participant

Wm…………Simply Put, Spirit is (INTELLECT) of the MIND, Therefore it says ,

Eph 4:23……> And be renewed in the SPIRIT of YOU MIND.

Making Spirit mean all kind of different thing only causes confusions and take away the simple meaning and understanding of the Word SPIRIT, Making Spirit into a “PERSON” is a false teaching , Like Wisdom being Jesus or a SHE or what ever when it is Just an attribute of the Mind. IMO

You have posted it right Wm, Spirit is Not a being it is what is (IN) beings. Just that simple.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

January 24, 2012 at 4:56 pm#274105

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2012,09:09)

Wm…………Simply Put, Spirit is (INTELLECT) of the MIND, Therefor it says ,

Eph 4:23……> And be renewed in the SPIRIT of YOU MIND.

You have posted it right Wm, Spirit is Not a being it is what is (IN) beings. Just that simple.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

gene

Eph 4:22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
Eph 4:23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;

January 24, 2012 at 4:58 pm#274106

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 25 2012,04:33)

william

this is what I told you ,are you now confirming it ?

spirit can also mean other things like ;desires ,thoughts,learning things ,view points ect….

Pierre

January 24, 2012 at 5:14 pm#274108

Participant

Pierre………..All those things you listed (ARE) Thoughts or (INTELLECTS) of the “MIND” and that is what SPIRIT (IS)> And that is all it (IS)> So why do you and Mike try so desperately to make Spirits as Beings (like Satan) or Wisdom as “JESUS” then? When Spirits are not “BEINGS” but what are (IN) beings. They have NO Bodies of any kind at all. Spirits are what is (IN) Bodies. WM postings have clearly shown, and i have both posted also scriptures saying that from the very start of this subject.

peace and love………………………………………………………….gene

peace and love………………………………gene

January 24, 2012 at 10:12 pm#274130

Participant

Hi Terraricca.

You quoted Gene these verses:

Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

These very much say: 'Put on the Spiritual Man' or 'Become a Spiritual person'. It is the great Spiritual Body which is spoken of by Paul. But – it is the Spiritual Person, dwelling in the carnal, natural body, a tamed Body. In other words, it is tamed by the Spirit (attitude) of the mind and the heart.

January 24, 2012 at 10:44 pm#274132

Participant

Quote (toby @ Jan. 25 2012,15:12)

Hi Terraricca.

You quoted Gene these verses:

toby

first ,let me say this ;the men that were Christ apostles,did they by any way change ,like become something else than what they actual were ???or are they the same men that still where his disciples after his dead ,and after the Pentecost ?

to me they are exactly the same ,but what as changed is there perception of Gods word ,because of the teachings of Christ about them.

and so kept on changing in time ,because Christ ad started a fire in them and their hearts,

but the fire that Christ started was spiritual ,in a way the interest of GODS kingdom and the invitation to be part of it ,

so that ALL their thoughts were focus on that kingdom,
AND SO BECAME 100% SPIRITUAL MEN ,LIVING IN THE FLESH ,

SO THAT WHEN THEY DIED ,THEY JOIN CHRIST ,IN THEIR NEW PROVIDED SPIRITUAL BODY,

THIS IS WHAT CHRIST SAYS IN; Jn 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

so a men of flesh will be talking about what is important to the flesh but would have no spiritual understanding ,because it is not his world.

but on the other hand the spiritual men will see and understand the truth in the word of God because this is his world where truth is alive ,he also will not be concern with the works of the flesh or the thoughts of it unless it is needed to live like eat ,drink,sleep,ect;;

Pierre

January 24, 2012 at 10:49 pm#274133

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2012,10:14)

peace and love………………………………………………………….gene

peace and love………………………………gene

gene

you are a man of this world no doubt about it .

January 24, 2012 at 11:52 pm#274155

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2012,08:44)

Quote (toby @ Jan. 25 2012,15:12)

Hi Terraricca.

You quoted Gene these verses:

toby

to me they are exactly the same ,but what as changed is there perception of Gods word ,because of the teachings of Christ about them.

and so kept on changing in time ,because Christ ad started a fire in them and their hearts,

but the fire that Christ started was spiritual ,in a way the interest of GODS kingdom and the invitation to be part of it ,

so that ALL their thoughts were focus on that kingdom,
AND SO BECAME 100% SPIRITUAL MEN ,LIVING IN THE FLESH ,

SO THAT WHEN THEY DIED ,THEY JOIN CHRIST ,IN THEIR NEW PROVIDED SPIRITUAL BODY,

THIS IS WHAT CHRIST SAYS IN; Jn 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

so a men of flesh will be talking about what is important to the flesh but would have no spiritual understanding ,because it is not his world.

Pierre

Terrarica, Amen to that.
Well said Terrarica!

January 24, 2012 at 11:56 pm#274158

Participant

Terricca…………….NO, Trying to make spiritual things into “BODIES” is a Metaphysical carnal expression of the world and the way it thinks. That is being CARNAL NATURED , Which you seem to exhibit the best of any here. A mind that can't tell the difference between a Spiritual Body and a real BODY and a mind that can't take disagreement without constantly attacking a persons character, that is what is CARNAL MINDED That is seeing things through the Natural MIND, rather then a “SPIRITUAL” Mind.

Pierre if you see something wrong with what i Post then Post it but i do not think you need to continue to attack a person character. You came out with an accusation of me but nothing to back it up other then you what you think. If i am wrong in what i write show it instead of trash talking me.

peace and love…………………………………………………..gene

January 25, 2012 at 12:08 am#274161

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2012,02:56)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2012,09:09)

Wm…………Simply Put, Spirit is (INTELLECT) of the MIND, Therefor it says ,

Eph 4:23……> And be renewed in the SPIRIT of YOU MIND.

You have posted it right Wm, Spirit is Not a being it is what is (IN) beings. Just that simple.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

gene

Eph 4:22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
Eph 4:23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;

WM…………..Yes the renewing of our Minds that is what SPIRITUAL Means. Spiritual is dealing with the Mind, that is exactly what i believe also.

Peace and love……………………………………..gene

January 25, 2012 at 12:13 am#274162

Blocked

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2012,19:48)

We may differ more than you thought, in those two cases the spiritual beings were in their natural state, requiring eyes to be opened to see them, however I do believe angels can temporarily manifest a body if so desired to accomplish an interaction with man.

WHY do you believe that, Wm? Is there any scriptural support to such a notion? If we KNOW that in two instances, eyes were opened to see the spirit being, then why can't that always be the case?

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2012,19:48)

49 We were made like that man of earth, so we will also be made like that man of heaven.

So the elect who are raised to heaven will be like Jesus – but NOT like the angels? That doesn't really align with Matthew 22:3 or Luke 20:36, in which Jesus says the elect WILL be like the angels.

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2012,19:48)

Well, Jesus told us that spirits don't have flesh and bone. And Paul told us that flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom of God. Why then, would you believe Jesus has a flesh component?

Wm, you're entitled to your belief, obviously. I just sometimes wonder how people come to believe how they do in the first place. If flesh and bone is a no-no, and flesh and blood is a no-no, then why in the world would anyone think Jesus is made of flesh after he became a SPIRIT? Why would they think he is the ONLY flesh being in a spiritual realm?

January 25, 2012 at 12:16 am#274164

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 24 2012,10:14)

So why do you and Mike try so desperately to make Spirits as Beings…………

Gene,

What's the DEFINITION of the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37?

January 25, 2012 at 12:31 am#274168

Participant

Hi Mikeboll.

To answer your question:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2012,10:20)

Toby, we agree that Jesus became a spirit. Did this happen when he was raised? Or when he ascended to heaven?

No Mikeboll. I do not agree that Jesus became a Spirit.
I believe that Jesus is an active living Spirit in Heaven.
(There is a difference).
Jesus and all living beings are already Spirits –
There is God, the Angels, and the other Heavenly hosts in Heaven –
And there is bodies of Flesh and Blood (Mankind, Birds, Fish, Animals) which have a Spirit in them in the physical world.

When Jesus was dead in the grave (the tomb), what was in the grave (the tomb)?
His Mortal Body.
What was in Heaven with God?
His Immortal Spirit.
Jesus died as a Man, and his Spirit went into a dormant state, as all Spirits of (the dead) of Humankind do, until the resurrection.
When Jesus was raised up from the dead, what is it that was raised up?
I think you agree, that it was his Body that was raised up.
Jesus became a living Immortal Man with Flesh and Bone (No Blood. He Sacrificed that for the sake of Mankind, remember?)

Therefore, when Jesus ascended into Heaven which is the Realm of the Spirit, it does not bode well to think that his Flesh and Bone entered into Heaven, but that his Immortal Body must have been shed (Dematerialised). Remember, that his Glorious body is now not the same kind of Body as the rest of humankind. Normal, natural human bodies do not 'walk through walls' or appear and disappear as its owner wills. Since it was the Spirit of Jesus that entered Heaven, it cannot then be said that Jesus became a Spirit but that he is now in Heaven as a living Spirit. You can therefore say he became a living Spirit (in Heaven) but you would have to include the clause “Living” and “In Heaven” as when Jesus returns it will be as a Man – and a Man has Flesh and Bone (At least).

My question to you would be:
'Since Jesus has a Spirit that was in a body of mortal flesh (Clothed in Flesh), and that Spirit was delivered to God unclothed, and then put back in a body of Immortal Flesh, why was all this, if the Spirit (which is Glorious already) then, according to you, was made Glorious at his ascension – what happened to his Flesh and Bone Body?

January 25, 2012 at 12:33 am#274170