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To All………Scripture say you must be BORN (Begotten) of (as composed of) WATER “AND” SPIRIT “AGAIN”. Why not Just SPIRIT why does “WATER” have to be Present if only SPIRIT is NEEDED and WE BECOME ONLY SPIRIT “BEINGS”> Bodies are 3/4 Water and make up most of our physical substance. Why dose Jesus say you must be Born “AGAIN” of “WATER AND SPIRIT”………is it not becasue we are already born of WATER and SPIRIT NOW, and it must Happen “AGAIN”, at the resurrection the will witness the “REDEMPTION OF OUR “BODIES”. We will be resurected with a Body and with Spirit (IN) It “AGAIN” Just that simple. IMO
peace and love to you all……………………………………………………….gene
Quote (toby @ Jan. 02 2012,14:53) But, on a simple matter – Spirit, in context of Luke's verse, does mean 'Spirit Being'. I would have thought that was obvious. Now you see where Gene is wrong………..
Gene,Do you agree with Toby's assessment? Or are you still unable to see that the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37 means “spirit being”?
Mike………It do no MATTER what the disciples “THOUGHT” WRONGLY they SAW Like 24:37 has nothing to do with any proof of a “SPIRIT BODY” at all.
peace and Love………………………………………………………..gene
But it has to do with a different meaning of “spirit” than the one you say is the ONLY meaning. Can you at least see that?
Mike………….It has nothing to do with a different Meaning of Spirit becasue the “THOUGHT”, the Meaning was different , They were wrong all the way not only just about what they “THOUGHT” they saw but also what they “THOUGHT” the meaning of what a Spirit was> IMO
peace and love……………………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 04 2012,19:23) Mike………….It has nothing to do with a different Meaning of Spirit becasue the “THOUGHT”, the Meaning was different
What does that mean, Gene?Did the disciples think they were seeing a spirit BEING? YES or NO?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 01 2012,12:40) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 31 2011,07:12) Mike……….Were the disciples wrong or not , as simple “Yes or NO: will suffice.
Gene,Did the disciples THINK they were seeing a spirit BEING or not? A simply “YES” or “NO” will suffice.
Hi Mike,That would have been a good place for the translators
to have used the word 'ghost' instead of “Spirit”, the
Greek word defines as both of these definitions.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd j………..The Greeks are the fathers of “MYSTERY RELIGIONS” by their Platonist and pagan ideologies and Metaphysic teachings which crept into Christianity shortly after the original apostles died and eventually took over the main line of Christianity thought as it is today. This is why you ha ve people like Mike who believed there are all kind of meanings to scriptures and this clouds clear thought and only serves to confuse people . But we are told we have been give the Spirit (intellect) of a Sound Mind , of Love and of Power.
We Should not tossed around with all-kinds of false teachings and meanings of word brought on by pagan ideologies. Like the “MORPHING of Jesus from one state of existence to another, or a GOD taking on the form of a man, or a Word being a “PERSON” Or Ghost or “Spirits are Bodies”, or we are resurected without a Physical Body, and on and on it goes, there is no soundness in present “Christianity” that is why there are over 500-1000 different denominations which believe in everything imaginable.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 04 2012,22:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 01 2012,12:40) Gene, Did the disciples THINK they were seeing a spirit BEING or not? A simply “YES” or “NO” will suffice.
Hi Mike,That would have been a good place for the translators
to have used the word 'ghost' instead of “Spirit………
And is a “ghost” a spirit BEING, Ed?Mike ………….No a Ghost is not a being nor is a Spirit a Being , a Spirit is what is (IN) a Being MIKE. Spirits are life and give off there cognate effects to our minds they form our intellects, and they are in everything that has Life in it they are the life of the beings they indwell they cause the power source they are in to be animated to do what they impute to it. There are many of different types of Spirits clean and unclean imputing clean and unclean thoughts to a beings, spirit of adversaries (satans) causing contentious actions in a being, spirits of wisdom, imputing wisdom to a Being, spirit of a sound mind imputing soundness to a beings, Spirit of Love imputing the sense of Love to beings, These are all “TYPES” of SPIRITS that effect our thinking.
Peace and love………………………………………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2012,10:44) Quote (toby @ Jan. 02 2012,14:53) But, on a simple matter – Spirit, in context of Luke's verse, does mean 'Spirit Being'. I would have thought that was obvious.
It IS obvious. And because it is obvious, it goes to show that there are more than the one meaning of “spirit” in the scriptures that Gene thinks. And also more than the two meanings you previously listed. I thank you for your help in this matter, as Gene has stiffened his neck against me and Pierre to the point that if we say it, he absolutely must disagree with it, despite the scriptural truth of the matter.I hope that he will read your words, let go of his pride, and acknowledge the obvious truth of the matter.
And since you helped me clear up that little matter, I am now available to share my understanding about anything spiritual with you.
Quote (toby @ Jan. 02 2012,14:53) [The disciples] were not seeing a Spirit as you define it: Jesus said so plainly to them and proved it.
Agreed. Although they thought they were seeing a spirit being, Jesus showed them they were wrong.Quote (toby @ Jan. 02 2012,14:53) Consequently, a Spirit does not have a body and has to manifest one to be seen (You are wrong).
What scripture tells you this? If you'll notice, Jesus didn't tell the disciples they were wrong because spirit beings don't have bodies at all – but because spirits aren't composed of flesh and bone. If spirit beings don't have a body at all, this would have been the perfect time for Jesus to teach this lesson to his disciples, don't you think?Quote (toby @ Jan. 02 2012,14:53) A Spirit, in context of a sentient force, is a Being (You are right and therefore Gene is wrong).
Agreed. Angels are indeed sentient beings, and angels are also ministering spirits according to Paul. Not all spirit is a sentient being, however………ie: God's Holy Spirit.Quote (toby @ Jan. 02 2012,14:53) (And Gene, sentient being, is one that has consciousness and aspects of self will. Another point that you may disagree with but then run into trouble as you openly say that a Spirit is an Intellect seeing that an intellect will have consciousness and aspect of self will!)
Agreed. And I hope Gene is listening.Toby, from your previous post it seems that we agree Jesus is now a spirit being in heaven. And we agree that Jesus was flesh and bone on earth after the resurrection, right? And we seem to agree that Jesus must have therefore been changed upon his ascension into heaven, right?
Our difference is that I believe Jesus' body of humanity was transformed into the glorious new body he now has, while you believe he shed his body completely. I offer up Phil 3:20-21 as support to my understanding.
What say you?
Hi Mikeboll 64, Terraricca and Gene.
Sorry about the delay.
OK:What is a Spirit? Is there more than one type of Spirit?
God is a Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a Spirit.
Angels are Spirits.
Man, Animals, Fish, and Birds have a Spirit in them.'God is a Spirit':
God is a Spirit, yet God HAS a Spirit.
God is both a Spirit and HAS a Spirit.An Angel is a Spirit. An Angel is a Ministering Spirit – one that carries out the will of God.
God makes his Angels Spirits.
And unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, 'Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire' Heb 1:7
The word 'Angel' simply means 'Messenger'. God makes his Messengers – Spirits. Demons are also Angels/Messengers but are Fallen Angels/Messengers. 'Angels' is simply a derivative word of the Greek word 'Angelos' meaning 'Messenger'.
Man, Animals, Fish, and Birds have Spirits but these Spirits are effectively 'locked' into the flesh, the body, of the species. The Spirit of these species are the intellectual (To greater or lesser degrees) motivating Force in the body. Removing the Spirit from the body makes the body incapable of sustaining itself and it decays (dies), damaging the body beyond a certain degree makes the Spirit unable to sustain the body and it leaves the body (The body gives up the Spirit, to coin a phrase) and the body dies.
So is there more than one type of Spirit? – Definitely. All Spirits have different personalities – this makes them Beings. But are all Spirits the Same? – No!
God, is a type of Spirit. The Spirit that is God is not the same type of Spirit that is an Angel, nor the same type of Spirit that is in Man, Animals, Fish, Bird (or 'Flesh'). The Spirit that is God is the source of all Spirits, the source of all that exists whether seen or unseen, in Heaven or in the Universe. The Spirit that is God is an invisible, bodiless, all powerful, omnipresent and all knowing intellectual force.
So how does God, who Is a Spirit, also have a Spirit (The Holy Spirit)?
Well, God is a God of Truth, Pleasure and Delight. In Truth He created the Universe and all living things in it for his delight and pleasure. In order to create these things he used his power and intellectual force – God owns the power and the force – and this Power and Force is called The Holy Spirit – the Holy Spirit of God – the Spirit of Truth. Therefore, although the Holy Spirit is a Being, it is not a Person in its own right – it is the motivating Force of God – it is 'Of God'. Hence it can be given, poured out, sent, recalled, and act under the directions of a managing Person (God or Jesus).And what of the Spirit that is an Angel?
Angels are invisible Spirits existing in the invisible Heaven and carry out tasks under the orders of God – and primarily in terms of interacting with Flesh beings. There are of course Angel Spirits that attend God alone in Heaven. The Angels/Spirits that interact with humankind need to be seen by their audience – and since the Angels are Invisible they manifest themselves in the same shape and form as humans. Ask why they are only ever seen wearing pure white, and are non-descript – ask, why would an invisible entity need clothes? Ears, Eyes, Feet, Hair, hands, to wit: a body?And lastly, the Spirit in Flesh.
So the disciples thought they were seeing an Angel/Spirit and were sore afraid. Why? A PERFECT HUMAN BEING appears inside a locked room. Who wouldn't they be afraid. They certainly THOUGHT they were se
eing an intellect in a manifested Body but Jesus reassured them that they were wrong and not only that but that it was HE, Jesus Christ. Jesus went to pains to show them that a Spirit does not have a body, that if they had in fact encountered a Spirit they would know it from the knowledge that it would be bodiless.see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having. Luke 24-39
Toby.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. John 4-24……….The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. Psalm 145-18
For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Phil 3-3
toby
Quote So the disciples thought they were seeing an Angel/Spirit and were sore afraid. Why? A PERFECT HUMAN BEING appears inside a locked room. Who wouldn't they be afraid. They certainly THOUGHT they were seeing an intellect in a manifested Body but Jesus reassured them that they were wrong and not only that but that it was HE, Jesus Christ. Jesus went to pains to show them that a Spirit does not have a body, that if they had in fact encountered a Spirit they would know it from the knowledge that it would be bodiless. see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having. Luke 24-39
THE ONLY THING WE KNOW FOR SURE OF THE WORDS OF CHRIST IN LUKE 24-39 IS THAT SPIRITS DO NOT HAVE A BODY OF FLESH AND BONES ,THIS IS ALL;BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE A DIFFERENT SORT OF BODY OR FORM THEY ARE AFTER ALL A UNIT JUST AS WE ARE ,
Pierre
Hi Toby,
I agreed with much of your post. I don't believe God is “bodiless”, nor that any scripture says He is. In fact, Ezekiel describes Him as looking like a man in his vision, and many scriptures describe him having a form, shape, eyes, hands, arms, ears, etc.
Phil 2:6
6 Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,The Greek word translated as “form” is the word “morphe”, which means “outward appearance”. Jesus couldn't have had an outward appearance such as God's if God doesn't have an outward appearance.
John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,In this scripture, the word translated as “form” is the word “eidos”, which means “outward appearance, figure, shape”.
It seems odd to me that Jesus and Paul would mention the “form” of God if God has no form to mention.
Toby, I also second Pierre's thoughts about Luke 24:37. You have twice now claimed that Jesus told his disciples that spirits don't have BODIES. That is inaccurate and unscriptural. Jesus told them that spirits don't have flesh and bone, nothing more.
Also, consider this:
1 Cor 15
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
The word translated as “likeness” is the Greek word “eikon”, which means “an image, figure, likeness”. So once again we are reading words describing the “form” of a being that you say has no form.
That's the third time this has happened, Toby. (Actually, the 4th time, if you count Phil 3:21, where Paul describes the new glorious body you say Jesus doesn't even have in heaven.)
The scriptures are pointing to spirit beings having shapes and forms, ie: bodies.
And what do you suppose “spiritual body” means in verse 44? One of the definitions of the Greek word used is “belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man”. It seems to me that Paul is distinguishing between the natural bodies belonging to human beings, and the spiritual bodies belonging to spirit beings.
Hi Mike and Terraricca.
You make some interesting points concerning the body of a Spirit. However, I think you may be looking to deeply at the metaphysical descriptions and linking them to the human understanding or view point.
For instance,
what use does an invisible Spirit of immense power and intellect have for a mouth, or an ear, or an eye, or hands and feet, a head, hair, nose, toes, etc?
Is God sitting all day and night on a physical throne made of unapproachable light. How is he 'sitting' on that throne in the limitless Heaven? Where, in Heaven, is God seated.
Where in Heaven are the Angel Spirits housed? Are they sleeping in houses (made of what?) do they sit on Spirit Chairs.. What do they eat, drink, where do they toilet? What do they shave with? What do they wear and what are their clothes made of?
Does the Spirit in man have arms, feet, wings, ears, eyes, a mouth, wear clothes, drink, eat, toilet, shave, have long flowing locks of hair, sit inside our bodies?Please answer these questions so I can get an idea of what you are thinking of as a Spirit with a body and Human attributes!
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It is certainly true that God speaks to his creation. It is certainly true that God listens to his creation. It is certainly true that God can touch, feel, smell, see… This is incorporated in the term sense. And God created all these senses into man in a limited form through sensory organs called Eyes, Nose, Ears, fingers, etc.. These limitations directed at explicit organs are to also limit us to the physical world that we live in: hence: 'Man has not conceived of the things that God has in store for his Holy ones'. Yes, the limitations of the human senses can only conceive of the things of the fleshly world we exist in – hence the limited ability to describe the world of Heaven except in metaphysical and symbolic manners.
When God created man, he did not create him wearing clothes. This can open up a new topic of 'What does Scriptures mean when it says that God made clothes for Adam and Eve from animals. Could it mean that man was originally HAIRLESS – and the NAKEDNESS was simply that they were HAIRLESS. God then made it so hair grew on them like hair grows on animals and COVERED their nakedness. Why would Adam and Eve otherwise be ASHAMED of being physically naked when there are societies even today where people go around naked are unashamed. I would submit that it was not physical nakedness that shamed Adam and Eve.
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Mike, I keep asking and you keep avoiding answering: What is your definition of a Body. I ask so that we are both singing off the same song sheet. If we agree definitions then we can move forward but until then you may have a completely different concept to me as to what constitutes a definition of the term: Body. And you keep ignoring what I write concerning the word and term 'Form'. You also use it out of context. “Jesus existed in the form of God means that Jesus was in the form of a Spirit. God is in the Form Spirit: God IS a Spirit.
Mike, Terraricca, how do you read: 'God is in the BODY of a Spirit' and,
'Jesus, being in the form of a Body' or,
'In the SHAPE of God'?I think your (mis)representation of the use of these terms is the cause of why this thread has gone on so long.
One can say. 'God formed man out of the earth' meaning 'God shaped man using the elements of the physical world'. One can say, 'The form of a human being is flesh' – this is not describing a shape. If one says, 'The form of a collection of elementals' this is not describing a shape but the consistency, that's is: a liquid, solid, gas, light, sound, heat, etc. Ask then: What is the form of a Spirit. You cannot answer that any more than you can answer 'What is the form of a Gas'. If so, then answer 'What is the form of God'? Please answer without using the recursive 'A Spirit'.
Thank you!
Terraricca,
You say that all we know for sure is that Angels/Spirits don't have Flesh and Bone.
Are you sure you don't mean that that is all You Know?
Please describe an Angel/Spirit and show where it has a body – should be simple, eh?By the way, just as a simple exercise – tell me what MONEY is?
I mean, is MONEY real, is it tangible, does it have a body?
Maybe you can invite Mikeboll to help you with this, eh?
Just remember this (a clue) : Think very hard before you respond – the answer is not what you think!
This is not a trick – it will …test… how you perceive things.Toby……….I agree with most of what you are saying here with the exception of Angels (NOT) having a BODY a Material body. Jesus said that we would be as the angels in Heaven and after his resurrection he was like them (IMO) He could appear or disappear go through doors eat food and feel and touch, Angel's did the same thing they appeared and they disappeared ,they ate and drank, but in every case they had a physical Body, Perhaps this is something to consider, WATER can EXIST in Three STATES as a Body, SOLID , LIQUID, VAPOR. Maybe this is what Jesus meant when He said YOU MUST BE BORN (AGAIN) WITH “WATER (AND) SPIRIT. We basically were already born once with WATER and SPIRIT in this life, So why not Be Born “AGAIN” with WATER (AND) SPIRIT AGAIN. That would make sense in regard to the Scripture that says “For we wait for the resurrection that will witness the redemption of (OUR) BODIES”.
Scripture say God creates his ANGEL”S SPIRITS, i believe we both agree on this part as meaning GOD Created THEIR Spirits and Puts it into Them, to carry out his will and purposes, I do agree with that part of your assessments, But as far as them not having Bodies i really do not see that Brother. Remember also just becasue we cant See a BODY of Some KIND doesn't mean it is not there, Like WATER in a Vapor state for instance. I believe GOD has to open up our eyes to see them or he has to materialize them or perhaps they can do that themselves Don't know but Scripture show them with bodies as to what kind Don't know.
But Spirit do not Have BODIES of any KIND they are what is (IN) BODIES, The only one who can exist outside of a Body i believe is GOD and he can also exist (IN) a Body also, because He is A SPIRIT. Angels are not Spirits they are created Beings that have Spirits (IN) them, sent out by GOD To minister> IMO>
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene
Quote (toby @ Jan. 06 2012,16:10) For instance,
what use does an invisible Spirit of immense power and intellect have for a mouth, or an ear, or an eye, or hands and feet, a head, hair, nose, toes, etc?
And of what use are those things to us? Surely God could have created us to “mentally hear, smell, and see” the things around us. But would we enjoy the sounds of a babbling brook with birds chirping and the smell of the flowers as much? Would we enjoy artworks that were painted by another's “imagination” instead of by his own hands?Face it, we don't even “need” these sensory organs, but God gave them to us for our pleasure.
If you were an angel, what would be more fun: Mentally thinking yourself to a distant planet, or spreading your wings and flying there, feeling the wind and the tickle in your belly?
Your thought that they don't have them because they don't need them leaves out the FUN and WONDERMENT of having them.
Quote (toby @ Jan. 06 2012,16:10) Mike, I keep asking and you keep avoiding answering: What is your definition of a Body.
I have not noticed where you asked that question of me, but you have helped me with my answer:Quote (toby @ Jan. 06 2012,16:10) Ask then: What is the form of a Spirit. You cannot answer that any more than you can answer 'What is the form of a Gas'
It seems herein will lie the crux of our difference. If ever there is anything, (a spirit being, a human, gas, whatever), that is not everywhere at the same time, then there is an outer, limiting parameter that is distinguishing that the thing is HERE, while not being THERE. This, to me, is a body.So if a train wrecks, and lethal gas from one of its cars is unleashed over California, even that gas has a body. If the gas is hovering over L.A., but hasn't yet reached San Diego, then there is a place where the gas IS, and a place where the gas ISN'T. The line between where it is and where it isn't is its body.
Had God not a body, then He would be everywhere and everything. I would be God, you would be God, etc. If angels had not a body, then they would be everywhere all the time. And scripture would not then mention angels coming and going from place to place.
Quote (toby @ Jan. 06 2012,16:10) I think your (mis)representation of the use of these terms is the cause of why this thread has gone on so long.
This thread has gone on for so long because many different people are interested in this subject, and many different people have differing understandings about it. This thread has been a blessing for me in that I've been forced to delve deep into scripture for the support of what I've always just understood.Now, the word “morphe” means “outward appearance”. How then am I “misrepresenting” the term if the term actually means the outward appearance of someone or something?
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