Do spirits have bodies?

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 30 2011,02:32)

No Gene,

The FACT of the matter is that there exist HUMAN BEINGS, although no scripture says the phrase “HUMAN BEINGS”.

So why would you try to disprove the existence of SPIRIT BEINGS by using the argument “No scripture says the phrase 'SPIRIT BEINGS' ” ?

Gene, instead of diverting away from my point, let me work through it with Toby. Maybe you will learn better from listening instead of talking.

Mike………….I am not trying to use Scripture to support that , but you are telling us that what scripture says when in fact it does not say that, Don't twist the argument to me trying to say something i am not even implying, But you on the other hand act as if that what your saying is scriptural, so Show us this ONE SCRIPTURE that defends you positions them > I have never found ONE> Surely you can find one bible of the hundreds out there that agrees with your Hypothesis.

peace and love…………………………………………………gene

December 31, 2011 at 4:46 am#270165

Blocked

Gene,

You already KNOW that the disciples thought they were seeing a spirit BEING when they saw Jesus. You have admitted that this is what they thought, and have voiced your opinion that they were wrong for thinking it…………remember?

If that is the case, then the word “spirit” that Luke used means “spirit BEING” in that verse. And once you come to terms with this FACT, I'll be able to show you even more similar scriptures that speak of spirit BEINGS, but call them “spirits”.

But what's the point if, after three months of trying, I can't even get you to acknowledge what you yourself have already said?

That's why I was hoping to show you this truth THROUGH Toby. But he seems to have taken a break. Let's wait for him, okay?

December 31, 2011 at 7:11 am#270177

Participant

Ran out of time sorry Mikeboll, will get back to this.

December 31, 2011 at 2:12 pm#270203

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2011,14:46)

Gene,

But what's the point if, after three months of trying, I can't even get you to acknowledge what you yourself have already said?

That's why I was hoping to show you this truth THROUGH Toby. But he seems to have taken a break. Let's wait for him, okay?

Mike……….Were the disciples wrong or not , as simple “Yes or NO: will suffice.

So trying to use,a “they though” as a “PROOF” text is asinine at best.Were after Proof here not Mike's rendition of proof but the word of God's Proof. You have done this with many subjects here Just give us “SPECIFIC” PROOF, not some conjured up Mike version like, they “THOUGHT” and therefore there IS, type of Proof> Show us where there IS IMO

peace and love…………………………………………..gene

January 1, 2012 at 2:40 am#270259

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 31 2011,07:12)

Mike……….Were the disciples wrong or not , as simple “Yes or NO: will suffice.

Gene,

Did the disciples THINK they were seeing a spirit BEING or not? A simply “YES” or “NO” will suffice.

January 1, 2012 at 2:44 am#270261

Participant

Hi Mikeboll and Terraricca and Gene.

I stated my position clearly (I thought?).

My position is that I believe that Spirits (Spirit Beings, since they are sentient – not mindless) do not possess bodies of ANY FORM but are of SPIRIT FORM only. What I mean by Spirit Form is that they exist as forces of intellectual energy. Energy can be transformed into physical elements as Einstein clearly points out in his great (and so simple equation) : E=MC^2. (Sorry for the Science lesson but it was necessary to my argument.)

What did the disciple think they were seeing: They 'Thought' they were seeing a Spirit (Being). Jesus told them that they were wrong and that what they ACTUALLY was seeing was a HUMAN BEING. Why DID THEY think they saw a Spirit (being)? Because the 'being' manifested itself amongst them inside a locked room – who would not think this impossible for a normal embodied human being? See that Jesus did not tell them off but only reassured them – proved himself to them to allay their fears. Jesus knew (obviously) that Spirit Beings appeared to mankind often for non-positive reasons (again, THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE VERSE SHOWING PEOPLE SEEING A WICKED SPIRIT BEING!)

Spirit Beings sent by God manifested themselves mostly in the form of a non-descript human being in white clothing (signifying Spiritual purity). If two Spirit Beings stood next to one another no one could describe them differently. Only Jesus as a manifested physical human being from his non-physical Spirit being form can be distinguished because he has the holes from his crucifixion (see that I said or meant Physical (visible) Manifestation – Personalities will, of course, differ).

So,
Mike, I am not siding with you.
Gene, I am not siding with you.
Terraricca, I am just responding to your question.
Others, take what you like from what I have said.

Do Spirits have bodies? no! But they may manifest a body (a non-descript physical visualisation of a human being) at will (as God allows them) for the purpose of interacting with human beings.

Remember that an Angel (Messenging Spirit Being) appeared as flames in a bush and spoke the words of God. Remember that an Angel appeared as a great storm cloud leading the Israelites in the Wilderness. Spirits may manifest themselves as anything that reflects the purpose to which God desires of them to effect the delivery of his message. Remember that one Angel appeared with a sword to a man – the man would have easily understood the significance of the sword as a sign of subservient authority because he himself had people under his authority much like a Policeman today brandishing a pair of handcuffs or holding out a can of Pepper Spray or CS Gas (I am ordered to delivery a message to you and see that you comply with the directive in no uncertain terms!)

I hope that helps!

January 1, 2012 at 3:02 am#270265

Blocked

Quote (toby @ Dec. 31 2011,19:44)

What did the disciple think they were seeing: They 'Thought' they were seeing a Spirit (Being).

Hi Toby,

So then the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37 actually MEANS “spirit BEING”, right? That's all I've been trying to show Gene for over a month.

Also, do you think Jesus has a body in heaven right now?

Thanks for your input,
mike

January 1, 2012 at 3:04 am#270266

terraricca

Participant

toby

Quote

the following scriptures do not agree with your way of thinking…

Ge 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Ge 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Ge 18:3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by.
Ge 18:4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.
Ge 18:5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
Ge 18:6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick

Quote

do not possess bodies of ANY FORM but are of SPIRIT FORM only.

you deny FORM and then use the same word to describe your idea,try to describe it with out the word form ,

now God ,as a heart,as a soul,as eyes,and can hear,he as truth being the only truth,he also is in charge and direct all the operations to about 100000000 angels,and you tell me he is just an energy ?this would be equal to say men is only flesh.

you try to tell us that you do not know ,just a mare opinion right ?

Pierre

January 1, 2012 at 4:14 pm#270334

Participant

Toby……I think here we need to identify what a “BEING” (IS) . Perhaps i am not flowing your Meaning of “SENTINEL BEING” Lets discus this OK? When i say a Sentinel being i believe it is like a complete person as a Man is a “LIVING SOUL”. That to me is a complete SENTINEL BEING, and another thing Toby is why does no scripture use the word “SPIRIT BEING” in it. I am going to make a study on the word Sentinel and Being, Perhaps i my be wrong in this. Will get back toby or should i say Astiri.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

January 1, 2012 at 4:17 pm#270335

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2012,09:14)

Will get back toby or should i say Astiri.

January 1, 2012 at 6:31 pm#270346

Participant

Toby………I looked up the word Sentential Being, It comes from the word Sentient evidently, and it means a cognate ability derived from senses like feel touch, taste , hear and so forth. I only seen it relate to Man, but not spirits, except in pagan religions such as Hinduism , Buddhism, and different types of pagan religions, but not Christianity it appears. It seem to exist only on a Physical level that imparts information to our minds through our senses, Hence the word Sentient>

The words Being can include Spirit. But the word BODY can Not included spirit from what i have seen in the given definitions i have thus read. So to say there exist a Spirit “BODY” is not in line with the word BODY as described in the Dictionaries i have so far read.

A “BODY” must have PHYSICAL related FORMS. There no mention in scripture of Spirits having a BODY of any KIND, So why should we assume they do have Bodies?. This i find very interesting and would like your input Brother. If I am in error, i would like to be corrected but it must be based on fact not suppositions. You may have a deeper incite then I on this brother, i want to know more.

peace and love to you and yours toby, …………………………………………………….gene

January 1, 2012 at 10:44 pm#270356

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 01 2012,13:02)

Quote (toby @ Dec. 31 2011,19:44)

What did the disciple think they were seeing: They 'Thought' they were seeing a Spirit (Being).

Hi Toby,

So then the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37 actually MEANS “spirit BEING”, right? That's all I've been trying to show Gene for over a month.

Also, do you think Jesus has a body in heaven right now?

Thanks for your input,
mike

Hi Mikeboll.

If anything I said agrees with your thoughts then great – go with it. I see what you mean about Gene's thoughts about Spirit Beings – and I agree that the Disciples could not have seen a Spirit Being unless a Spirit Being was in a Body. do you also see that Both you and Gene are right!?

Gene says that the Spirit is in a body – Right!
You say that a Spirit is a Being – Right, too!

Mike, Do Spirits exist outside of their bodies? What are those bodies made of, then? A body is a container – a container for what? The Spirit of course! When the Spirit is removed from its body the body is inanimate – Lifeless – effectively Dead. So, what is the body of a Spirit composed of? If Spirits are seen as they are – as you say they are – why can we not see then now – everywhere around us – today? When they appeared to mankind, where did they Appear From and then Dissapear to? Well, Heaven, yes. But how? Through an invisible doorway? Is that doorway a physical elemental body? i say that a Spirit is a Being that can manifest a body when it wants to be seen but is otherwise a force of energy with intelligence.

Quote

Also, do you think Jesus has a body in heaven right now?

I personally believe – Jesus does not have a body in Heaven – Jesus is in Spirit form in Heaven – Heaven is the abode of the Spirit – not the physical. There is Heaven and there is Earth (The universe), one for the Spirit and one for the Flesh. Mike, you said yourself that Jesus somehow changed before he entered Heaven. You are still saying though that he has a body in Heaven. Why then did he change? When Jesus was lifted up into the air – why do you think that was? It was to signify that everyone would see him. 'Men of Galilee, why do you look up into an empty sky? This same Jesus will come again in like manner and every eye shall behold him' – said a manifested Spirit person who appeared to the Disciples from apparently no where right amongst them. Heaven is not UP in the Sky. It is only Spiritually UP in relation to Hell being Spiritually DOWN. Jesus could have vanished right in front of them but the message would not have had the same universal significance. Remember that people appearing and disappearing at will is not normal for a human mind to understand. So Jesus rising up and disappearing into a cloud was shocking to them – at least hiding himself in a cloud lessened the shock of a disappearing body – I guess!

Just how i see it.

As a matter of interest, why do you believe that he does have a body in Heaven – and How?
What is the place called Heaven – to your mind?
You got me interested now in how you can explain your thoughts.

Thank you.

January 1, 2012 at 10:46 pm#270357

Participant

Hi Gene. I'll get to your posts a bit later.

January 2, 2012 at 2:15 am#270368

Blocked

Quote (toby @ Jan. 01 2012,15:44)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 01 2012,13:02)

Quote (toby @ Dec. 31 2011,19:44)

What did the disciple think they were seeing: They 'Thought' they were seeing a Spirit (Being).

Hi Toby,

So then the word “spirit” in Luke 24:37 actually MEANS “spirit BEING”, right? That's all I've been trying to show Gene for over a month.

Hi Mikeboll.

If anything I said agrees with your thoughts then great – go with it.

Toby,

I'll get to the rest of your post soon – no time tonight. But here's where I'm at with Gene:

He insists that there is only ONE meaning of “spirit” in the entire scriptures. He believes that “spirit” ALWAYS means “the intellect inside someone”.

But you, I AND Gene know that the disciples thought they were seeing a spirit BEING when they saw the raised Jesus, right?

But Luke only used the word “spirit” to describe what they thought they were seeing. If Luke wrote “spirit”, but meant “spirit being”, then isn't that PROOF POSITIVE that “spirit” MEANS “spirit being” at least once in scripture? YES or NO?

What I'm after is a DIRECT STAND from you. It seems like you want to remain neutral between Gene and I. But on this one point, I would like a DIRECT ANSWER from you.

If Luke used the word “spirit” to convey “spirit being”, then the word “spirit” MEANS “spirit being” in Luke 24:37, right?

January 2, 2012 at 2:10 pm#270431

Participant

Mike……….You can't try to make a Proof text out of the words, “they thought they saw”, when in fact no scripture show anyone seeing a Spirit of any kind. Much less then it was a “BEING”. Jesus describes Spirits as “TYPES” Not beings. There is (HOLY) Spirit that is a special type of Spirit not a person or Being.. Spirits have been “personified” in scriptures in many places but they are not real Persons but 'TYPES” of Intellects , like the Spirit of Wisdom , or and adversarial Spirit (ha-Satan) or clean and unclean Spirits, these are not Persons but types of (intellects) that effect our thinking and animate us through effecting our Wills.

Mike another thing is a Body is only called a body if it contains Physical Matter, rather seen or unseen, if it is a body it must contain Physical matter, Jesus said we must be born of SPIRIT “AND” WATER, Water is the biggest part of Flesh our bodies are 3/4 water as i recall. So this Shows that our resurrection is indeed a Body with Spirit and that to Me is a Living Soul. Just Some food for thought.

peace and love………………………………………..gene

January 2, 2012 at 9:51 pm#270456

Participant

Hi Terraricca,
I'm not sure you understand what I am saying to you. I am not denying 'Form'. Form can mean 'Body' or Shape, but the context does not warrant it's use in that way: 'In what BODY/Shape does God/Jesus exist in Heaven?' That is not the question. It was 'What Form…' – and the answer is given: 'The form of a Spirit' “God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth”

January 2, 2012 at 9:53 pm#270457

Participant

Mike, I'm not looking to side with anyone – just putting my point of view. You seem to want to pressure me into agreeing with you despite what I keep saying that neither – and both of you – are right and wrong – in your own ways. But, on a simple matter – Spirit, in context of Luke's verse, does mean 'Spirit Being'. I would have thought that was obvious. Now you see where Gene is wrong, you are right but also that then makes you wrong about Spirits. I mean, the Disciples were not seeing a raw Spirit, as Gene would define it. But also they were not seeing a Spirit as you define it: Jesus said so plainly to them and proved it. One cannot see a Spirit unless it manifest itself – put itself in a body (Gene is right about this). Consequently, a Spirit does not have a body and has to manifest one to be seen (You are wrong). A Spirit, in context of a sentient force, is a Being (You are right and therefore Gene is wrong). Gene is arguing from his viewpoint of 'No such thing as an Angel' and hence falls into the class of the Sadducees. It is pointless trying to convince him otherwise so I would leave off it. (And Gene, sentient being, is one that has consciousness and aspects of self will. Another point that you may disagree with but then run into trouble as you openly say that a Spirit is an Intellect seeing that an intellect will have consciousness and aspect of self will!)”

January 2, 2012 at 10:07 pm#270458

terraricca

Participant

Quote (toby @ Jan. 03 2012,14:51)

toby

Quote

That is not the question. It was 'What Form…'

no that is also not the question in this topic;

the question that is addressed is ;do a spirit being has a sort of body or form that distinct him from all others ,

and this is said YES by Mike,Pierre,t8,and others ,BUT NO by gene and some others

so by looking in scriptures we came to the YES conclusion by saying that all angel 100,000,000 more or less; are individuals beings,and we know God is a being and so conclude that to be seen as separated and so must have a type of body or form that limit there person,

and this is what Gene does not accept,

the reason that he does not is that he does not understand is that spirit beings are not flesh beings but both are individuals beings and so they need their space,

but spirit being are different of spirit taught,and spiritual understanding,and spirit of meanings,

Pierre

January 3, 2012 at 12:44 am#270475