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Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2011,01:26) Irene and Paul says;
1CO 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1CO 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1CO 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1CO 15:48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.1CO 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
1CO 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1CO 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1CO 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Hi Pierre, how right those Scriptures aere. we can bring the Horse to the water, but can't make them drink it….
Peace and love IreneQuote (Istari @ July 13 2011,14:33) Sorry,
EPHESIANS 4:24 (Not Hebrews 4:25…)
Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
Eph 4:19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
Eph 4:20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way.
Eph 4:21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
Eph 4:22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
Eph 4:23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Eph 4:25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
Eph 4:26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
Eph 4:27 and do not give the devil a foothold.Irene and Terraricca,
Two questions:1) What do you understand by 'Resurrection' (Perhaps I am not understanding what this means)?
2) What do you understand by the terms 'Earth[L]y and 'HeavenLy' in context what you quote above?
My understanding is as follows:
1) The COMING BACK TO LIFE in the [Same] BODY that was dead.
The undyable Spirit of the dead (Fish, Bird, Animal, Man) is put BACK (ReEnters) the same body to reAnimate it.
Please note: RESURRECTION is different to RE-INCARNATION. Re-Incarnation means coming back to life in a DIFFERENT BODY (Yet still a Body: Insect, Fish, bird, Animal or Man)
Re-Incarnation IS NOT TAUGHT IN CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES.
Therefore, the RESURRECTION, was, and will be, a SAME BODY RISING (The Rebirth that Jesus spoke of to Nicodemus: Jesus did not say 'Unless a man is reborn AS A SPIRIT…' – 'If it were so,' then he would have had to explain because Nicodemus clearly understood it as a REBIRTH IN THE BODY… but Jesus meant a SPIRITUAL REBIRTH: Change of 'heart' , Mental state, SPIRIT OF THE MIND (SPIRITUAL REBIRTH is not SPIRIT REBIRTH – SPIRITS do not GIVE BIRTH!
similarly, if you understand SPIRITUAL BODY to mean 'BODY OF A SPIRIT, then you would have to equally say that SPIRITUAL REBIRTH means REBIRTH OF THE SPIRIT… except we know that the Spirit cannot DIE (BUT Can be DESTROYED) therefore how can there be a REBIRTH of something that CANNOT DIE?2) Earthly, means FLESH and Blood, Physical, Materialistic, Unrighteous, Sinful, Corruptible, subject to death and decay.
Heavenly, means Righteous, Holy, Glorious, Sinless, incorruptible, undying.Angels of Heaven certainly are HEAVENLY Beings, they certainly are Righteous, Holy, Glorious in Power, Sinless, incorruptible and cannot die (But can be destroyed).
By such, 'as of those who are Heavenly' simply means 'as of ANYONE who conforms to the HEAVENLY STATE… which leads onto the point and purpose of Paul's reference concerning becoming a 'Citizen of heaven' : Conforming to the STATE of RIGHTEOUSNESS, of Holiness, of incorruptibility, of Sinlessness, of deathless (by belief in Christ who GIVES EVERLASING LIFE). You are a CITIZEN of Heaven if you CONFORM (Whether in physical Body or in Spirit (why the distinction?) if you conform to the STATE of Spiritualness.istari
Quote 1) What do you understand by 'Resurrection' (Perhaps I am not understanding what this means)? Quote My understanding is as follows:
1) The COMING BACK TO LIFE in the [Same] BODY that was dead.1CO 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1CO 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1CO 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.when we die all our body (flesh and blood and bone) dies our soul (spirit ) goes to God who had given it ,for judgement or for blessing
a blessing if we are in the first resurrection and judgement if we are in the second resurrection,
if we belong to be with Christ then we will receive a spiritual body,(body required to live in heaven and that contain our soul) if we are resurrected to the earth then we will receive a new body of flesh and blood and bones ,and live forever in Gods will.
Pierre
Israri……….Good Post, understanding of what Spirit really is opens up many scriptures for us all. It is sad how most Christians have no idea what Spirit truly is. IMO
peace and love…………………………………….gene
istari
Quote 2) What do you understand by the terms 'Earth[L]y and 'HeavenLy' in context what you quote above? earthly means belonging to the earth = mainly addressed to men
Heavenly means belonging to the heaven = mainly addressed to God ,Christ and the angels ,at one point Satan also came before God so not all were then righteous in heaven,
this is what I understand from scriptures
Quote 2) Earthly, means FLESH and Blood, Physical, Materialistic, Unrighteous, Sinful, Corruptible, subject to death and decay.
Heavenly, means Righteous, Holy, Glorious, Sinless, incorruptible, undying.Earthly is mainly related to men being of the interest of the earth,those names you quoted are untrue because many lived on earth and were called righteous by God,corruptible yes because of sin,the soul who sins will die,
Heavenly = means to belong to the heaven is this mean in the presence of God that I do not know scriptures says that Christ sit with the father on his throne and that the 144k are sitting with Christ on his throne this is of cause an allegory,it seems that there could be more that one level of heaven,like Paul says third heaven,
scriptures also says that the 144k like Christ will receive immortality,(this is not similar to conditional everlasting live)
Pierre
Shimmer: Still waiting for an answer about the body Paul was anxious to receive.
Gene: Still waiting for an answer about what the bodies of angels are made of.
Istari: Still waiting for you to address the three points I outlined last night for you.
peace,
mikeAll,
I was reading Tertullian last night. I don't agree with all the Early Church Fathers. It's only Mans view. But, heres what Tertullian in 180AD said of Pauls writings – 1st Corin 15:
All flesh is not the same flesh; meaning not to deny a community of substance, but a parity of prerogative—reducing the body to a difference of honour, not of nature. With this view he adds, in a figurative sense, certain examples of animals and heavenly bodies:
There is one flesh of man (that is, servants of God, but really human), another flesh of beasts (that is, the heathen, of whom the prophet actually says, Man is like the senseless cattle ), another flesh of birds (that is, the martyrs which essay to mount up to heaven), another of fishes (that is, those whom the water of baptism has submerged). 1 Corinthians 15:39 In like manner does he take examples from the heavenly bodies:
There is one glory of the sun (that is, of Christ), and another glory of the moon (that is, of the Church), and another glory of the stars (in other words, of the seed of Abraham). For one star differs from another star in glory: so there are bodies terrestrial as well as celestial (Jews, that is, as well as Christians). 1 Corinthians 15:41
Now, if this language is not to be construed figuratively, it was absurd enough for him to make a contrast between the flesh of mules and kites, as well as the heavenly bodies and human bodies; for they admit of no comparison as to their condition, nor in respect of their attainment of a resurrection.
Then at last, having conclusively shown by his examples that the difference was one of glory, not of substance, he adds: So also is the resurrection of the dead. How so? In no other way than as differing in glory only. For again, predicating the resurrection of the same substance and returning once more to (his comparison of) the grain, he says: It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.Now, certainly nothing else is raised than that which is sown; and nothing else is sown than that which decays in the ground; and it is nothing else than the flesh which is decayed in the ground. For this was the substance which God's decree demolished, Earth you are, and to earth shall you return; Genesis 3:19 because it was taken out of the earth. And it was from this circumstance that the apostle borrowed his phrase of the flesh being sown, since it returns to the ground, and the ground is the grand depository for seeds which are meant to be deposited in it, and again sought out of it.
And therefore he confirms the passage afresh, by putting on it the impress (of his own inspired authority), saying, For so it is written; 1 Corinthians 15:45 that you may not suppose that the being sown means anything else than you shall return to the ground, out of which you were taken; nor that the phrase for so it is written refers to any other thing that the flesh.
Mike and Irene,
Irene, the issue of Mary not recognising Jesus etc I addressed that quite a while back. My head is tired (didn't get much sleep last night – I was up reading all night) so I really cannot think right now! And Mike too. Plus my son keeps talking… Later!
Terraricca,
Please explain what is the “IT” in your quote as pertaining to 1 Corinth 15:42.'And so also it will be with the resurrection,
The body is sown in Corruption, IT is raised in Incorruption'
How can that be faithfully rephrased:
'the body that is put into the ground in a corrupted state
Is the same body that is raised but in an incorrupted state'I can't teach you LINGUISTICS but it should be clear in ANY LANGUAGE that the 'IT' refers to the 'The body'…in the same way that a sentence says 'Jesus died and was buried and HE Rose again from the dead three days later'
Or, 'The man went to sleep with an illness. He WOKE up Refreshed and renewed (by application of the Healing Spirit of the Doctor)
Who is the 'He' and was the man a different Man – or a RENEWED MAN – A New Man in THE SPIRIT OF HIS FLESHLY BODY BUT NOT A NEW BODY…Is there a Scripture verse that says Jesus was RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD AS A SPIRIT.
Is not THE SPIRIT OF MAN A SPIRIT IN THE BODY OF MAN…
Did not God create the Fleshly body of the man then BLOW the Spirit into the body to make it alive.If the SPIRIT OF MAN, even Jesus, can exist by itself – why was there a RESURRECTION?
Terraricca, I asked you and Irene for your understanding of what RESURRECTION means.
What you have given is a Scriptural extract of verses that simply USE THE WORD 'Resurrection' and then you stray off to somewhere else.
My question was 'What does the word or term mean' in your understanding…
What does it mean to be resurrected…?Terraricca, it is easy enough to GOOGLE the word or look it up in a dictionary but since you have been arguing against me so strongly for so long I would have expected that you had a STRONG reasoning ready prepared.
I notice that Irene has not responded but that is ok for now for Irene does not even believe in the resurrection even though she says she does.
She says Jesus was not RESURRECTED but became (Directly) a Spirit…
This is a semi-Sadducees belief : The Sadducees believe neither that there is a resurrection of the body nor that there are such things as Angels/Spirits.
I don't understand what Irene thinks because it is just a mishmash of confused ideas.
She does not understand what 'Celestial' means.
She does not understand what 'Terrestrial' means.
She does not understand what 'Resurrection' means.
AND, She doesn't understand what 'Spiritual' means.I don't think that is a very strong basis for claiming that she was led to believe these things by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD – the Holy Spirit of Truth…
Who is the 'He' in that sentence… Was it a different Person
Quote (Istari @ July 13 2011,18:14) Terraricca,
Please explain what is the “IT” in your quote as pertaining to 1 Corinth 15:42.'And so also it will be with the resurrection,
The body is sown in Corruption, IT is raised in Incorruption'
How can that be faithfully rephrased:
'the body that is put into the ground in a corrupted state
Is the same body that is raised but in an incorrupted state'I can't teach you LINGUISTICS but it should be clear in ANY LANGUAGE that the 'IT' refers to the 'The body'…in the same way that a sentence says 'Jesus died and was buried and HE Rose again from the dead three days later'
Or, 'The man went to sleep with an illness. He WOKE up Refreshed and renewed (by application of the Healing Spirit of the Doctor)
Who is the 'He' and was the man a different Man – or a RENEWED MAN – A New Man in THE SPIRIT OF HIS FLESHLY BODY BUT NOT A NEW BODY…Is there a Scripture verse that says Jesus was RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD AS A SPIRIT.
Is not THE SPIRIT OF MAN A SPIRIT IN THE BODY OF MAN…
Did not God create the Fleshly body of the man then BLOW the Spirit into the body to make it alive.If the SPIRIT OF MAN, even Jesus, can exist by itself – why was there a RESURRECTION?
Terraricca, I asked you and Irene for your understanding of what RESURRECTION means.
What you have given is a Scriptural extract of verses that simply USE THE WORD 'Resurrection' and then you stray off to somewhere else.
My question was 'What does the word or term mean' in your understanding…
What does it mean to be resurrected…?Terraricca, it is easy enough to GOOGLE the word or look it up in a dictionary but since you have been arguing against me so strongly for so long I would have expected that you had a STRONG reasoning ready prepared.
I notice that Irene has not responded but that is ok for now for Irene does not even believe in the resurrection even though she says she does.
She says Jesus was not RESURRECTED but became (Directly) a Spirit…
This is a semi-Sadducees belief : The Sadducees believe neither that there is a resurrection of the body nor that there are such things as Angels/Spirits.
I don't understand what Irene thinks because it is just a mishmash of confused ideas.
She does not understand what 'Celestial' means.
She does not understand what 'Terrestrial' means.
She does not understand what 'Resurrection' means.
AND, She doesn't understand what 'Spiritual' means.I don't think that is a very strong basis for claiming that she was led to believe these things by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD – the Holy Spirit of Truth…
Who is the 'He' in that sentence… Was it a different Person
IstariI start to see were you are now try to make me go ,
so I will need some answers from you first ;
1) since we are according to Jesus two parts the flesh body and the soul,right?
2)which of those two are resurrected or revived so that the word of God is to be accomplished and true,to whom has the promise given so that the 144k can worship God and so are we the body or the soul in that box
do not get confused like Satan was by underestimate God and try to out smart God in and with Gods own creation in Eden,so who are we ;the body or the soul ? we can not be both
I will answer you after you answer me
Pierre
Mikeboll,
I have no dealing with you in this thread any more.
You are the worst of all these in this thread because you are adopting your views so as to conform with EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FROM THE BEGINNING -while all the time DENYING AND VILLIFYING EVERYTHING I SAID.
In the end you will AGREE with me and yet say of yourself 'THAT IS WHAT I (Mikeboll) have Always been saying for 777 pages.
Irene is lost – for someone to deny the resurrection and even say they DIDN'T UNDERSTAND what being RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD means… Yet vehemently stating that Jesus' body was not reAnimated with his Spirit (And then go on about RANSOM – what!!!) what did I say that she ignored: His DEATH was the RANSOM… His BLOOD, the Sacrifice…
This is all over Scriptures by analogy with the BLOOD SACRIFICE OF ANIMALS.
Does Irene read anything other than 1 Corinthians 15…? She seems only capable of posting the SAME VERSES OVER AND OVER with nothing to explain. How many times have I asked her to expand on what she is saying only to get the same verses posted as her PROOF (This is similar i noticed to her posts where she would always post 'And his vesti.. Was dipped in blood' – every post was the same… No matter what the subject)
Has she ever read 1 Corin 15:12-19? For if she denies the resurrection, even claiming 'difficulties of language' (seems to apply to Terraricca also – why do they struggle to read in ENGLISH and then tell native English speakers that they (the NES) don't understand English.. !) then she is lying concerning God and the Holy Spirit – and if she says that those verses are WRONG. Then the whole of Scriptures is WRONG and our discussion is futile and purposeless.
At the end of the day, she lays ALL HER ERRORS on the HOLY SPIRIT claiming it was IT THAT TOLD HER (That 'Celestial' means 'Angels' and 'Terrestrial' means 'Sin, moon and stars' and that 'Resurrection' does NOT mean 'Raised up in Body' – and, of course, that 'Spiritual' means 'Spirit'…
She also claims she is not led by any man but then states that her Husband TOLD HER and she believes him… Is that not being 'Led by a Man' even as he is her husband?and I can rarely understand anything Terraricca says bit it isn't anything of value – Just 'Good post, Mike' even though he actually doesnt understand what he just read – just thought something was funny. Mike, is this what turns you on – is that what you are about – just someone to massage your ego – even if they have no idea what you are actually saying… That is sad!
And he just says of Istari:”You don't know what you talking about – you don't know Scriptures!” even as the only Scriptures he knows is where to copy and paste it – without regard to any connection with the point in question.
These two you 'High-Five' with?istari
Quote I can rarely understand anything Terraricca says bit it isn't anything of value – Just 'Good post, Mike' even though he actually doesnt understand what he just read – just thought something was funny. Mike, is this what turns you on – is that what you are about – just someone to massage your ego – even if they have no idea what you are actually saying… That is sad! is this means that you will not answer my two questions ?
Pierre
Quote
Irene is lost – for someone to deny the resurrection and even say they DIDN'T UNDERSTAND what being RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD means… Yet vehemently stating that Jesus' body was not reAnimated with his Spirit (And then go on about RANSOM – what!!!) what did I say that she ignored: His DEATH was the RANSOM… His BLOOD, the Sacrifice…
This is all over Scriptures by analogy with the BLOOD SACRIFICE OF ANIMALS.Istari, Irene knows exactly what Jesus was resurrected with. Since He is seated at the right hand of His Father He is a Spirit Being and has a Spiritual Body. you seem to think that the spiritual body is flesh and blood, but that is not what Scriptures say.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.Get it, it is raised a spiritual body….. Since it is raised, where was it raised from? These Scriptures talk about the resurrection. But of course Irene is wrong, she knows nothing….. But that is OK, they at Jesus time said Jesus didn't either.
I know you don't understand a ransom, never will, why, God doesn't let you see it……If you think you are annoying me, you have another thing going…..I am German, they are tough…..ha ha….Quote (Istari @ July 12 2011,18:58) and I can rarely understand anything Terraricca says bit it isn't anything of value – Just 'Good post, Mike' even though he actually doesnt understand what he just read – just thought something was funny. Mike, is this what turns you on – is that what you are about – just someone to massage your ego – even if they have no idea what you are actually saying… That is sad!
First of all: HALLELUJAH! Please DON'T have any more dealings with me on this thread. But if you refuse to respond TO me, don't post trash ABOUT me. If you are truly DONE with me, then be DONE ALL THE WAY. Leave my name out of your posts altogether.Istari, you have lost this debate since you stepped foot into it. You try to imagine that Paul speaks of “putting on the spiritual man” in 1 Cor 15. But the “spiritual man” STILL exists on earth with a NATURAL body, doesn't he? Yet Paul makes a big deal about distinguishing BETWEEN the natural body of those who live on earth and the spiritual body of those who DIE and are raised to citizenship in HEAVEN.
Some day when I'm bored, I'll make a list of all of the points we've made to you in this thread that you couldn't address.
Quote and I can rarely understand anything Terraricca says bit it isn't anything of value – Just 'Good post, Mike' even though he actually doesnt understand what he just read – just thought something was funny. Mike, is this what turns you on – is that what you are about – just someone to massage your ego – even if they have no idea what you are actually saying… That is sad!
I've learned more FROM Pierre than he will EVER learn from me, Istari. Pierre understands exactly what he's agreeing with when he encourages me about one of my posts.But apply your very words about Pierre to Shimmer for a moment. She sometimes tells you “Good post, Istari” when she doesn't even agree with your understanding. Why do you think she won't address my question about Paul's transformed body? Because she KNOWS he's not speaking about a body he won't even need in heaven. She knows that Paul has a body in heaven just like she knows that Jesus now has a body in heaven. (Didn't you wonder why YOU'RE the only one who voted that Jesus DOESN'T have a body in my poll?)
But she won't answer my question because she doesn't like it when “everyone's against you”. So she encourages your poor manners and behavior and even tells you “Good post” when she KNOWS she doesn't agree with a word you just said.
I don't post this to make Shimmer angry or embarrassed. I post it to show you that your comment about Pierre is like the pot calling the kettle black. At least when Pierre encourages me, he actually KNOWS that he AGREES with the words of my post, and doesn't come back the next day saying, “I was distracted last night and I don't know why I said what I said”.
And what about Gene? He does the “Atta boy, Istari” daily. Yet he believes that angels DO have bodies, which is the VERY THING you're rallying AGAINST!
Istari, let me know if you ever want to take me up on the Q and A discussion. In the mean time, read my last post to Marty in the “Incarnation” thread. What I've explained in that post is EXACTLY what I go through trying to have a discussion with YOU! A scriptural discussion between Christian ADULTS should never be like this. One should be able to ask a simple question and get an honest answer in return – even if that answer is “I don't know”.
When you decide you're ready for a grown-up conversation like that, let me know. Until then, I am truly thankful that you've decided to have no dealing with me anymore. I sincerely feel like a prayer has been answered.
I pray for you to have peace, love, grace, and understanding from God,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 12 2011,12:16) Quote (shimmer @ July 11 2011,17:35) I'm not saying they are the deciever and antichrist I am saying they have learnt WRONG and YOU don't seem to care
I do care for both of them, Shimmer – as well as for you. But what you showed me changed the way I believed about this subject. And if you remember, Pierre, Irene and I went round and round about it for a long time. But what kind of body Jesus was raised from the dead in is NOT the subject of this thread.So if you and Istari want to have this side debate with Pierre and Irene, feel free. You already know my belief about it, because YOU are the one who lead me to the scripture that caused me to change my former belief.
I believe that Jesus was raised in the same exact body he died in. I believe he stayed on earth in that body for 40 days. And since flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, which I'm sure we all agree Jesus HAS inherited, I believe that Jesus' body was transformed into the new, glorious spiritual body he now has in heaven sometime after he disappeared from the disciples' view.
I have made this belief manifest to all on this thread. I have given you credit for leading me to the truth of the matter. What else would you have me do? Pierre, Irene and I have agreed to disagree on this subject. So the discussion you and Istari are having with them about it now is not MY fight.
peace,
mike
Mike, it is good that you have come to see this.So, rather than discourage Istari who is speaking truth, then please encourage them (Irene and Terrarica) to listen to Istari.
Has anybody seen what I quoted of Tertullian? Just out of curiosity…
There is one flesh of man (that is, servants of God, but really human), another flesh of beasts (that is, the heathen, of whom the prophet actually says, Man is like the senseless cattle ), another flesh of birds (that is, the martyrs which essay to mount up to heaven), another of fishes (that is, those whom the water of baptism has submerged). 1 Corinthians 15:39 In like manner does he take examples from the heavenly bodies: There is one glory of the sun (that is, of Christ), and another glory of the moon (that is, of the Church), and another glory of the stars (in other words, of the seed of Abraham). For one star differs from another star in glory: so there are bodies terrestrial as well as celestial (Jews, that is, as well as Christians). 1 Corinthians 15:41
That was 180 AD aproximately.
Doesn't say in there that Angels or God has a body does it? Am I keeping up with the conversation, or am I backtracking? I don't know.
Irene, a ransom and the denial of the bodily resurrection of Christ is nothing but the text of the JWs. And you say you didn't learn it from them? And Mike what are you saying? I agree with Istari because I AGREE. Don't think I would agree with someone just because I like them. I'm not that stupid.
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