Do spirits have bodies?

[terraricca]

kerwin

Quote

That should be enough all by itself to convince you but in case you require more consider Paul speaks of his own body from heaven just as Jesus spoke of his in John 2:19.  Paul speaks of such in 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 with these words. Quote   2 Corinthians 5 (New International Version (NIV)) 1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

I do not see in Paul s argument that he expect to be covered with a flesh and bone body in heaven,
and futher more you should read Phil 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
Phil 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained

Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Phil 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

and so Paul says that our earthly tent will be destroyed he did not say renewed. but receiving a other one more glorious

Pierre

[terraricca]

Kerwin

Quote

So in Jesus’ case the body that was raised was clearly of Flesh and Bone. Paul used Jesus as an example of thee final resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:16 and so it follows that in the way he was raised so should others be raised.

Paul is right in all men cases,but in Christ case it is different ,first Christ was preexisting his live on earth ,COL 1;15 he sacrifice his earthly body (flesh and bones) for the sake of our sins if we believe in him,scriptures says he was resurrected but spirit in his glorified body that is not the earthly body ,he just took a flesh body to appear to his disciples and to fulfill the words he told them ,if he would have stayed in is glorious body they would have not see him,this is why they did not recognized him every time he appeared to them.

the glorified body is not of flesh and bone ;but i can not tell you what the structure is,but Paul says he will be clothed with his new body.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,01:34)

Here's a better one, Kerwin: Matthew 8:16 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. The “demons” they were possessed by WERE the “spirits” Jesus drove out of them.

Mike,

The word “demon-possessed” is a translation from one common Greek word so following your reasoning the evil spirit is the demon possession and not the demon.

The common Greek word is “daimonizomai” and means “to be under the power of a demon”.  It is the only definition given by Strong’s and it is word 1139.

Remember that demons tempt humans to sin and Paul teaches of sin that because humans turned away from God, God handed them over to their sinful desires, Romans 1:21-25.  In doing that God handed them over to the power of the demons they chose to worship, Romans 1:23.

Note: I obtained the information in regards to Strong's at searchgodstruth.org.

[Istari]

Kerwin,
I cAre not what YOU think.

When the man posts gobbledygook I have a right to say so.

You will find put yourself soon – keep posting to him.

I refused to answer his twaddle for many pages as they were empty and devoid of reason and purpose.

He attacks ME not from any point of scripture error on my part but just to support Mikeboll – hence his 'Good post' type posts and derision on mine when he could not even see that I was big-upping Mike!! Yes, Kerwin, he knee-jerk responses from his point of WEAKNESS.

Only the unwise and unwary responds to a foolish question – for you will be wrong no matter what you answer…

They posts these nonsense just to get others riled up – Mikeboll learnt that from WJ (And he told me himself in case you think I'm making it up!)

Yes, Kerwin, when mike is losing a point he become a joker: do you also not read and understand what i post: If he can't WIN then he will do ANYTHING to at least NOT LOSE…

Do you see it now!!! And Terraricca just trails on behind like a passenger on a tandem.

If you want to know: It started when t8 removed my tiles because Mikeboll illegally tiled me.
Irene and Terraricca and Mike were incensed and decided to just castigate everything I said even without cause – that's why you hear me call them the 'three King's
'These three Kings dis-Oriented are' and the rest…

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin…………Istari is right about this brother. IMO Mike gandy dances all around and then accuse other of not know what they are talking about. I said to Mike along ago, ” a novice should not teach”  It only causes endless confusions. In case you don't know what a Gandy dancer is , it is a Iron ball or shoe on the ends of a dirt packer and jumps up and down and every where very fast being driven by air pressure.  What drives Mike is hot air,  He has not idea what he is talking about or affirming . IMO

peace and love to you and yours Kerwin………………………………………gene

[csaliba]

Quote (Istari @ June 17 2011,06:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2011,12:10) Quote (Rena @ June 15 2011,05:35) So I think that sums up my answer? No, not at all.  The question only requires a YES or a NO answer, Kar.  Would you do me the honor of DIRECTLY answering a DIRECT question that was put to you?  Or will you play games like Istari does? mike Mike, Which / What 'game' am I playing – 'Truth or Dare'? You are the one playing games … How do you define one word using a definition of another: I said that 'Spirit' is Immaterial, Invisible, Bodiless. You cannot take one part of the description/definition and compare it with another… This underlines your deceitful way of thinking… No, it wasn't an error on your part; it was deliberate… The body is material, visible and constrained by an outer casing called skin… How do you say 'Visible does not mean Skin' or 'Material does not mean Visible'… How do you say 'Bodiless does not mean invisible'? You take one quality and compare it to another quality of the same entity and say 'that is false' – of course it is FALSE (Or at least not necessary True) because YOU JUST MADE A FALSE COMPARISON!! You do this all the time – it's called 'Muddying the waters!' You make deliberate errors hoping the opposition doesn't notice : Sorry Mike, I DO NOTICE! Jesus does not have a BODY in Heaven because a Body cannot enter heaven. A body is composed of material matter – ever BODY is composed of material matter. Material matter is Compressed ENERGY. All material matter is created from ENERGY – everything is ENERGY ORIGINATED. Power – is active energy – energy at Work. This is PHYSICS – and we live in a PHYSICAL world. God, how is God described: 'Bathed in light'. Why? Because Light is the only visible part of the Spectrum of energy that we can see. God is also 'Fire'? Why, because 'Fire' gives HEAT which is the only part of the energy Spectrum we can FEEL. When an Atom is 'crushed' it gives off enormous amounts of energy: Heat and Light… Where does the Heat and Light go to…? Does it remain VISIBLE, Feelable? No, where does it go? EVERYWHERE… It is SPIRITED away… The Atom is SPIRITED away… The Atom which is a body… Is SPIRITED AWAY – everywhere…in the atmostphere (Don't go there! This is an Earthly analogy!) Mike, you are thrashing!! Jesus is the only Man with a Spiritual Body. The Spiritual Body is pure and Sinless, not subject to decay, it is not carnal, is righteous by desire and perfect in design. But it is still flesh. What purpose did God create Adam in a Spiritual flesh body if God meant for him to cast it aside and live in Heaven. No, Mike, God purposed that Man should live on the Earth – that's why he created the physical world. If God had meant for man to live in heaven as a Spirit them why go to all the trouble of creating the physical world? No, Mike, God purposed that 'Some' would go to Heaven as rulers – he purposed that Adam was meant to be so – but Adam failed – God purposed that many (but a few) would also become Spirits and go to Heaven – put off their Earthly flesh bodies and become like the Angels – but BETTER THAN the Angels… How? The Angels do not have RECOGNISEABLE HUMAN FLESH BODIES. look for the descriptions of Angels – they are only ever said to be 'Like' a MAN (not Woman – why?), 'In the Form of a Man' and 'One LIKE the Son of Man (A human being)' They wear SHIMMERING WHITE ROBES and emanate perceptible Power! Why emanate power: They are INTELLIGENT ENERGIES at work: Intelligent Powers – but they restrain themselves when in contact with humans so as to not 'fry' them – they put on the FORM of Man so as to not frighten them. Also to make themselves more believable: what should someone say,'A Bush told me to kill my son?'; 'A lightening bolt caused me to sin'; 'The wind told me to preach the Gospel to the Ninevehn's'? Wouldn't he be laughed at? But if one like another man said, 'Your wife will be pregnant in the course of time from today!', well, presume he is a doctor, fortune teller, clairvoyant, mystic…an Angel of God! And where did he DISAPPEAR to in the twinkling of an eye – and did not your heart 'Burn' inside you as he spoke – and how were his clothes so WHITE and why did he have a Shimmering haze about him – almost like he was an APPARITION but more solid…! Mike, you looking too deeply into what you don't understand

Istari,

with every respect to your statement:

Quote

No, Mike, God purposed that Man should live on the Earth – that's why he created the physical world. If God had meant for man to live in heaven as a Spirit them why go to all the trouble of creating the physical world?

God never purposed that man live on this particular Earth.

This particular Earth was not created in this state as it is, between two opposing spirits, and also within our body, God in our soul, (ADAM)  and Satan in our flesh (EVE)

Originally it was created perfect through God for non mortal humans with spiritual flesh, before the rebel from Lucifer.  
Since God, is non mortal, created a living soul, with a spiritual flesh, non mortal man in Adam, (Lucifer's Soul) as His image, a non mortal God.

This was the first spiritual created being through a drastic and quick change, that God through the power of the Holy Spirit, made through His breath, onto the most mature human creature like, than existed, through His Son within natural creation. So the Son was the creator of the material body, and the Father was the creator of the spiritual body of the soul all through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Since Lucifer rebelled, and had to be punished for what he did, with the hope that he’ll be converted, God, placed Adam purposely in Paradise, a garden of pleasure. This He did to persuade Satan’s spirit, who was completely blind in pride, and in his dream of becoming like the most High. Through Adam’s soul (Lucifer’s) He  himself had to opt, under which rules, he preferred to live, and to be educated  in order to return to the Father. These rules would be automatically established throughout our world in respect of Adam’s decision.

This garden was the model of the actual world if Adam respected and accepted the opportunity of grace which God's law established. The tree of life. From God’s side, this was an act of mercy, charity, love, and patience, hoping to convince Adam’s soul to quit totally Satan’s blind dream and instead obey the righteous system and carry on from there without the struggle through death, which was Lucifer’s aim, and never God's purpose.

The only reason that Adam became a mortal flesh, and also thrown out of paradise, was, for the simple reason that Satan's spirit
had the predestined  faculty through God to test and  induce Adam to sin through Eve. Adam, symbolically the soul and Eve symbolically the flesh, were the representatives of God and Satan respectively. Through the test of Adam and Eve, had to be established the justified kind of human body to live on earth, and also accordingly the world itself.

 Adam symbolically the soul, ignored God's law, with the consequence that he became instantly mortal within God’s spirit, which means that Adam could never communicate with God. But from the other hand, God made it possible to communicate with Adam through His angels, and later through the prophets as well.

Not the same with Satan though, because as soon as Adam sinned, he, who holds the power of death became the owner of Adam. (Lucifer’s soul)Therefore, Adam owned a body in respect to Satan’s representative the flesh of Eve, and the soul became totally passionated by it through the manipulation by Satan, eventually, all future humans  became likewise. Till Jesus’ death .

Through reflections, we could appreciate as well that since Adam received Eve’s flesh, and was established our type of human mortal body in Satan, Jesus also received Mary’s flesh and was established our type of  spiritual body  in Jesus Christ, after total destruction of Adam’s body of the flesh on the cross, and His resurrection.  

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last:……..

Since Satan was and still is the owner of earth, it was his sole plan to become the owner of the first born in Adam’s soul in order to be the legitimate spirit of the first born of all future generations,and also the owner of man, but only within the natural system of woman fertility.Barren women were not within his authority.That's how he was being manipulated by God.

Also since Adam’s sin, humans, after death had to be justified, in respect of the behaviour of the flesh, since the soul was dead. On the point of death therefore, Satan had the right to possess all souls, since he was the legitimate spirit. Only through Michael intervention prevented Satan from acquiring a soul.

So Satan (Lucifer) owned his soul again and also became the first man on earth through Adam. So the spirit, soul and body became the abode of Satan. He taught that he won the war, for  God it was just started!

This, according to Satan, the owner of the world, was the only justified way to establish man on Earth, and according to him God would never become man on this particular planet.

Which eventually Jesus did, and Satan  became aware of it only when he was casted down for the second time after the rebel in hell fire through Jesus death.

As soon as Adam sinned there was nothing according to God's purpose. This was permitted from God in order to leave his creatures within their own free will, and through their own free will, also demonstrates His omnipotence, that  being patience ,and weak, still triumph, through His unique virtues, of love, humbleness, meekness and charity.

Now read this beautiful and amazing reflection which I believe will make you aware of  Who Our Lord Jesus Christ is:

In what should the omnipotence of God be extolled, if He could not contain Himself within Himself whatever He is, so that He is only felt and seen as is most suitable for the time, place and person?? For since the creation of Heaven and earth He has worked for the redemption of all, more by the wisdom of His benignity than by the power of His Majesty. And this benignity of wisdom shines most in His tolerance towards the imperfect, leading them, even by their own free will, into the way of perfection.

Peace and Love in Our Lord Jesus Christ

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 21 2011,01:11)

kerwin Quote That should be enough all by itself to convince you but in case you require more consider Paul speaks of his own body from heaven just as Jesus spoke of his in John 2:19.  Paul speaks of such in 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 with these words. Quote   2 Corinthians 5 (New International Version (NIV)) 1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. I do not see in Paul s argument that he expect to be covered with a flesh and bone body in heaven, and futher more you should read Phil 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Phil 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. and so Paul says that our earthly tent will be destroyed he did not say renewed. but receiving a other one more glorious Pierre

and

Quote (terraricca @ June 21 2011,01:28)

Kerwin Quote So in Jesus’ case the body that was raised was clearly of Flesh and Bone.  Paul used Jesus as an example of thee final resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:16 and so it follows that in the way he was raised so should others be raised. Paul is right in all men cases,but in Christ case it is different ,first Christ was preexisting his live on earth ,COL 1;15 he sacrifice his earthly body (flesh and bones) for the sake of our sins if we believe in him,scriptures says he was resurrected but spirit in his glorified body that is not the earthly body ,he just took a flesh body to appear to his disciples and to fulfill the words he told them ,if he would have stayed in is glorious body they would have not see him,this is why they did not recognized him every time he appeared to them. the glorified body is not of flesh and bone ;but i can not tell you what the structure is,but Paul says he will be clothed with his new body. Pierre

Pierre,

That is not what scripture states.  Scripture uses Jesus as an example of the final resurrection but you appear to doubt and I fail to understand why as Scripture when speaking of the final resurrection clearly states:

Quote

1 Corinthians 15 (New International Version (NIV)) 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.

Could you please let me know why you do not believe this means that Jesus is an example of those that will be raised from the dead in the final resurrection?  Thank you!

You already acknowledge that the spirit side of man apart from the flesh and bone body has a spirit body and is alive.  Being so it cannot be resurrected as it is already living and it already has a spirit body so it does not require one.

Paul speaks of being naked in 2 Corinthians 5:3 when we are the spirit side of man with a spirit body.  So it is clear it is not the spirit body he is eager to be clothed with since he would already be clothed with it.

Notice that Paul states in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that if the earthly (natural) house is destroyed then there is a building of God that is not made by human effort to look forward to.  Jesus spoke of his body being destroyed and then being constructed again after three days.  The new construction he spoke of is not of man but it is of God.

That is all I can address at this time I plan to get back to it at a later time God willing.

[terraricca]

Kerwin

Quote

Pierre, That is not what scripture states.  Scripture uses Jesus as an example of the final resurrection but you appear to doubt and I fail to understand why as Scripture when speaking of the final resurrection clearly states: Quote   1 Corinthians 15 (New International Version (NIV)) 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. Could you please let me know why you do not believe this means that Jesus is an example of those that will be raised from the dead in the final resurrection?  Thank you! You already acknowledge that the spirit side of man apart from the flesh and bone body has a spirit body and is alive.  Being so it cannot be resurrected as it is already living and it already has a spirit body so it does not require one. Paul speaks of being naked in 2 Corinthians 5:3 when we are the spirit side of man with a spirit body.  So it is clear it is not the spirit body he is eager to be clothed with since he would already be clothed with it. Notice that Paul states in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that if the earthly (natural) house is destroyed then there is a building of God that is not made by human effort to look forward to.  Jesus spoke of his body being destroyed and then being constructed again after three days.  The new construction he spoke of is not of man but it is of God. That is all I can address at this time I plan to get back to it at a later time God willing.

it is the dead of Christ that Paul talks about,not his flesh and bones,those where the offerings,with the blood.

the resurrection is part of the reward promise that God as given trough Jesus,and so it is his resurrection that is the example.

2Co 5:2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

I do not read that Paul was already clothed with his heavenly dwelling,why is he LONGING

Quote

You already acknowledge that the spirit side of man apart from the flesh and bone body has a spirit body and is alive. Being so it cannot be resurrected as it is already living and it already has a spirit body so it does not require one.

you concluded that the soul is living and good;I never say this ,the soul is going to God where they wait for judgement day,they do not have a body to make them active,they are existing yes because only God can destroy them.

so unless it receive a body to allow it to be active either flesh and bones to live on earth or spiritual body in heaven

Pierre

[Rena]

Quote

I don't include IRENE here for she was so much below the intelligence level as to be of masterful pointlessness

That wasn't nice you shouldn't say thing's like that. Just like you shouldn't of said the same thing to Terrarica. Just because Mike said something similar to you Istari doesn't mean you should do the same thing to others. If you do it to Mike – fair enough, though.

Quote

Mikeboll is the worst – he actually TAUNTS others into deriding him hoping to get them banned. And he calls himself a MODERATOR!!

That's true.

Quote

If you want to know: It started when t8 removed my tiles because Mikeboll illegally tiled me. Irene and Terraricca and Mike were incensed and decided to just castigate everything I said even without cause – that's why you hear me call them the 'three King's 'These three Kings dis-Oriented are' and the rest

There's one person you forget to mention. Who could that person be I wonder? Hmmm. Who was it who went off to find another forum to post on – because you and Ed were here – and weren't banned when they thought you should be. And who missed that person – and did anything to get them back posting – therefore tiling and banning you? You never saw that did you?

So if it happened then – then what really happened the first time you actually were wrongly banned as JustAskin?

---

Kerwin, the reason Terrarica says the body of flesh was not raised and doesn't see what your saying is MAYBE he has read the JW magazines. I think JWs believe Jesus was raised as a spirit only.

---

ED, when I say something, could you please not quote me and make the writing so big. It's annoying. Keep it at normal size. Thank you.

[Rena]

Mike, sorry, I was just shaking some dust. I'm ok now. I just want to finally put it behind me. Friends?

Terrarica,

You said'

Quote

this is Satan before is corruption;Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. Eze 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub so what you think as he a body of a sort?

I don't know anything about your question. But I did have a point I think.

You said that anything created has a form and I said that's true – everything in Earth and what we can see in the Heavens do have form – right down to the tiniest thing.
But then theres the unseen.

As Paul says,

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 4:18

While we don't look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

So, is a thought – is love – created?
And does it have a form?

If it doesn't have a form, then you don't think it exists?

It does exist but can you see it?

[terraricca]

Rena

Quote

So, is a thought – is love – created? And does it have a form? If it doesn't have a form, then you don't think it exists? It does exist but can you see it?

is love – created? NO, God is LOVE ,and God was not created.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 21 2011,01:11)

kerwin Quote That should be enough all by itself to convince you but in case you require more consider Paul speaks of his own body from heaven just as Jesus spoke of his in John 2:19.  Paul speaks of such in 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 with these words. Quote   2 Corinthians 5 (New International Version (NIV)) 1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. I do not see in Paul s argument that he expect to be covered with a flesh and bone body in heaven, and futher more you should read Phil 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Phil 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. and so Paul says that our earthly tent will be destroyed he did not say renewed. but receiving a other one more glorious Pierre

I agree that an immortal body of flesh and bone is more glorious than a mortal and therefore vile body of flesh and blood. The immortal flesh is not the same as the mortal flesh for it does not perish unless destroyed by God.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2011,17:32)

Quote (terraricca @ June 21 2011,01:11) kerwin Quote That should be enough all by itself to convince you but in case you require more consider Paul speaks of his own body from heaven just as Jesus spoke of his in John 2:19.  Paul speaks of such in 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 with these words. Quote   2 Corinthians 5 (New International Version (NIV)) 1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. I do not see in Paul s argument that he expect to be covered with a flesh and bone body in heaven, and futher more you should read Phil 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Phil 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. and so Paul says that our earthly tent will be destroyed he did not say renewed. but receiving a other one more glorious Pierre I agree that an immortal body of flesh and bone is more glorious than a mortal and therefore vile body of flesh and blood.  The immortal flesh is not the same as the mortal flesh for it does not perish unless destroyed by God.

Kerwin

Quote

Pierre

I agree that an immortal body of flesh and bone is more glorious than a mortal and therefore vile body of flesh and blood. The immortal flesh is not the same as the mortal flesh for it does not perish unless destroyed by God.[/QUOTE]

do not agree with me because i do not believe that flesh and bones of any kind will be in heaven,

immortality is a gain status and only Christ and the 144 k attain it ,

everlasting live for most of us on earth renewed and new heaven will not have immortality but live for ever .

not the same thing to me that is.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Wow, what a busy thread today!  

Pierre:  Good line of reasoning and great responses in your discussion with Ed.  Keep it up, brother.  

Ed:  Istari and Kar used to claim what you did – that ONLY Jesus has a body in heaven.  I'll ask you what I asked them:  Does it seem logical to you that the person God placed as RULER over heaven and earth would have a constraining body while the ones he rules over do not?  Does it make sense that the angels are free to be “everywhere all the time” while their RULER is less free than them, and is always stuck in a constraining body?

Kerwin:  Your Strong's definition only goes to prove MY point:  If the Greek word refers to someone possessed BY a demon, then the evil spirit that person is possessed by IS a demon.  But this one should answer the question once and for all:
Mark 5
12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs.

Does that one help you to understand that the “unclean spirits” ARE IN FACT the “demons” themselves?  And if so, do you now understand that when Paul says angels are ministering SPIRITS, he means exactly what he says, regardless of how we today call someone who HAS a gentle spirit “a gentle spirit”.

As far as your discussion with Pierre, I agree with you that Jesus was raised from the dead in a flesh and bone body.  There was a purpose behind this, as Jesus needed to stay on earth for 40 days before ascending to heaven.  None of the others who have been, or will be, raised to life in heaven need(ed) to be raised in a flesh and bone body first, for they have no mission left on earth like Jesus did.  Those elect are who Paul is speaking to and about in 1 Cor 15.  Those are the ones who will die in a natural body to be raised in a spiritual body, like those of heaven have.  They have no need to be raised as flesh and bone first, like Jesus.  He was the exception to the rule, for he alone still had work to finish on earth before ascending.  The others don't.  Plus, we KNOW that flesh cannot enter heaven, right?

As for the case of Jesus, who WAS raised in a flesh and bone body, there are only two choices that I'm aware of:

1.  Jesus “shed” that body upon ascending to heaven, and now exists without a body.

2.  Jesus' flesh and bone body was “transformed” upon ascension to heaven, and he now has the new, glorious body that Paul spoke of in Phil 3:21.

The latter does well in explaining why Paul was anxious to have his lowly body transformed into one like Jesus has.  

The former makes it seem like Paul was anxious about a body he wouldn't even have, since “in the twinkling of an eye”, he would shed that new, glorious body in order to live in heaven.  Paul says, “And we eagerly await a Savior who will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.”  The former interpretation has Paul being anxious to receive a body like the one Jesus DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ANYMORE.  (Or, according to Istari, a body like the one Jesus keeps on standby for times he visits earth.    )  The words, “so that they will be like his glorious body” seem pretty straightforward, and have NO implication whatsoever that Paul means “the body Jesus shed, and so doesn't really even have anymore”.

What Istari is doing is similar to what the Trinitarians do when they read, “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ”.  The trinni's take those very straightforward words, and illogically claim that they say the Father is both Lord and God Almighty, and Jesus is also both Lord and God Almighty.

Similarly, Istari is taking words that clearly speak of Paul wanting a body like the one Jesus now HAS, and illogically coming to the conclusion that Paul is speaking of the body Jesus ONCE HAD, but has no more.  This understanding is not derived from common sense, or the ability to read words and comprehend their clear meaning.  Nope, this understanding can ONLY be the product of a mind that has already been made up ahead of time, and is now willing to force fit those words into whatever illogical conclusion fits that preconceived notion.  Our buddy Gene does it all the time.  Gene, I would rather be a novice who forms my understanding around the scriptures than a very learned scholar who forces the scriptures to fit around his own preconceived notions.  You do realize that the majority of the world's leading theology experts are Trinitarians, right?  

Istari:  I believe you are beyond help in this matter.  I gave you five simple questions to ponder and/or answer, and instead, as usual, you chose to spout your unintelligent ramblings, proving once again what a spaz you are.  Irene has more love in her little finger than you have in your entire soul.  She was confused and made a mistake about the celestial bodies.  She has since admitted that mistake, so for you to even bring her back into this discussion in such an underhanded manner shows that there is no limit to your deceitfulness.  You also told at least three BLATANT lies about me and my understandings on this topic.  

If you aren't smart enough to even understand the simple words I post, how will you ever be able to understand the scriptures?  I will, as usual, leave you with a question to ponder and/or answer, although I won't hold my breath for an answer.  For it is clear to all of us that you prefer spouting nastiness from your own heart than actually addressing the points we bring up that show your understanding to be flawed.  But here goes anyway:

Istari, in the scripture I quoted for Kerwin above, what FORM did the demons have from the time they left the man to the time they entered the pigs?  Were they “everywhere all the time” for a couple of seconds, including inside Jesus?  If not, what invisible “body” kept them constrained to only the area between the man and the pigs?

Which brings me to Karmarena:  Why do you assume that “things we can't see” equals “things that don't have bodies”?   Why does “invisible to humans” equal “bodiless”?

peace,
mike

[Rena]

Terrarica and Mike,

Is love created?
I think it is. We create a thought and we create an emotion.
We can also create hate.
Though neither is seen unless it is manifested in an action.

If God is unseen,
Love and thoughts are an invisible form of spirit.
God is invisible spirit the scriptures say and you cannot see God.
We are consciense of God in our lives when we pray or when God is working with us – in our thoughts and hearts.
And it says God is love.
God's love can be `seen in Earthly form in anyone who has Gods love in them. More so when a person sacrifices themself to save another – or loves someone no matter what. Don't you think?

So is love created? YES.

[terraricca]

Mike

Quote

Mark 5 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs.

I would like to tell you where many are confused with,is spirit ,spirit ,spirit ;;;

1)spirit = the thoughts who are not in line with Gods will,(this is why Jesus call Peter Satan)(this is a bad spirit but there are good spirit like For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”)

2)spirit = the idea that is projected trough the words that are said,

3)spirits = are heavenly being and some are called angels.

4)spirit (soul of men) = the part that is recieved from God at birth and goes back to him when we die,with all what we have done.

5) demons spirit =the only way i understand this is that the demon are the spirit souls of the offspring of the angels and the women prior to the flood
and have no place to go they are neither men nor angel so they are stuck here on earth ,and for them to function they need a flesh body of animal or human but for human to be overcome by them they (humans) have to accept them in them after that it is anyone guess what happen to the human.

Pierre

[Rena]

Word error in my post, that was supposed to say `conscious

[terraricca]

Quote (Rena @ June 21 2011,19:35)

Terrarica and Mike, Is love created? I think it is. We create a thought and we create an emotion. We can also create hate. Though neither is seen unless it is manifested in an action. If God is unseen, Love and thoughts are an invisible form of spirit. God is invisible spirit the scriptures say and you cannot see God. We are consciense of God in our lives when we pray or when God is working with us – in our thoughts and hearts. And it says God is love. God's love can be `seen in Earthly form in anyone who has Gods love in them. More so when a person sacrifices themself to save another –  or loves someone no matter what.  Don't you think? So is love created? YES.

terraricca

Group: Regular Members
Posts: 7414
Joined: Oct. 2009  Posted: June 21 2011,17:23  

——————————————————————————–
Rena

Quote  
So, is a thought – is love – created?
And does it have a form?

If it doesn't have a form, then you don't think it exists?

It does exist but can you see it?  
—————————————————–

is love – created? NO,NO<NO  God is LOVE ,and God was not created.,

Pierre

 

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 20 2011,19:44)

3)spirits = are heavenly being and some are called angels.

Hi Pierre,

A demon is nothing more than an angel who chose NOT to follow God. Like angels, demons ARE spirits, which means “a spirit being”.

Kar, I agree with Pierre that love is not created, but part of many things that are on loan to us through the spirit of God which animates us.

[kerwin]

Pierre,

Quote

it is the dead of Christ that Paul talks about,not his flesh and bones,those where the offerings,with the blood. the resurrection is part of the reward promise that God as given trough Jesus,and so it is his resurrection that is the example.

So we agree that Jesus’ resurrection is an example of the final resurrection.

Quote

I do not read that Paul was already clothed with his heavenly dwelling,why is he LONGING

I did not say that he was already clothed with his heavenly body but my understanding from your words is that if the spirit side of man has a spirit body or it would not exist.  You also claim the heavenly by is a spirit body.  I put those two together to conclude that according to your own words his spirit side was already clothed with his heavenly body when naked.

Quote

you concluded that the soul is living and good; I never say this ,the soul is going to God where they wait for judgment day,they do not have a body to make them active,they are existing yes because only God can destroy them. so unless it receive a body to allow it to be active either flesh and bones to live on earth or spiritual body in heaven

You have previously claimed the spirit side of man has a spirit body or it would not exist.

You have also claimed the spirit side was alive as only God can destroy it.

Have you changed you position on either or both of them?  If so then please let me know.  Thank you

[Author]

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