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Just going by what Jesus said here:
Quote Luke 24:35-50 (King James Version) 35And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43And he took it, and did eat before them.
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Yes I do,indeed, believe what Jesus said. When Jesus was with his disciples at the last supper he said:Quote Luke 22:14-18 (King James Version) 14And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
These scriptures lead me to understand that resurrected persons have physical-like body of some sort and can eat and drink in the kingdom of God.
Yes, indeed, I do believe on Christ Jesus's words.With Love and Respect,
WispringWispring,
Jesus is talking of Paradise Earth – The fulfilment of God's Plan – the word that went of God's mouth that will not return to him until it is fulfilled.
Jesus is able to be in Heaven as Spirit – and on Earth with a recogniseable Body – With the Sacrificial holes in his hands and feet – this is not a blemish but as an everlasting symbol of that Sacrifice (like his symbolic 'Lamb as if Slaughtered from before time' body as described in Revelation)
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 19 2011,17:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,11:30) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 18 2011,09:47) I believe the reason that there is so much dis-agreement is akin to the story of the “blind men and an elephant”, we are all discussing something we cannot see from what we perceive of it through limited information on different aspects.
Hi Wm,We know that Jesus is now a spirit. (1 Cor 15:45) And we know that he has a body. (Phil 3:21)
You are correct about the blind man and the elephant. But I cannot possibly understand how there could ever be more than one thing without something that separates one of those things from the other(s). Even if it is some kind of invisible membrane or something.
Anyway, that's been my understanding for over 200 pages of this thread, and it hasn't changed since the beginning.
peace,
mikeMike,
I agree that Jesus is both spirit and body.I also do not understand it, but believe it is indicated by scripture, guess that's what makes it a different reality.
My opinion – Wm
ST,What is it that is hard to understand here?
You rightly say that Jesus is both Man AND Spirit – but he cannot be BOTH at the same time for Man (In flesh) cannot enter heaven!
So Jesus must transition between the two states.
Is that not what even Angels do who appear in the visible world in the shape of Mankind (or otherwise) and just as easily disappear back to the invisible heavenly realm.
What Mikeboll is saying is that there MUST BE something that is a CONTAINER BODY for the invisible IMMATERIAL Spirit in Heaven although how that is conceivable is a feat in itself seeing that what Container would there be a requirement for to contain an IMMATERIAL entity…?
That Container would then have to be a MATERIAL Container – and MATERIAL is FLESH.
– Flesh in Heaven??? Someone knows more than God and Jesus – so it seems!!Even God has a body then ….and would then only be in ONE PLACE….;
“Where can I go to hide from your Spirit: if I go down to the depth of the earth, to Hell, you are there; if go to the ends of the earth you are there; inside the fiercest Fire, your spirit is there also.” (My paraphrase of Psalm 139:7: “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?”)
Quote (Istari @ April 23 2011,11:17) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 19 2011,17:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,11:30) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 18 2011,09:47) I believe the reason that there is so much dis-agreement is akin to the story of the “blind men and an elephant”, we are all discussing something we cannot see from what we perceive of it through limited information on different aspects.
Hi Wm,We know that Jesus is now a spirit. (1 Cor 15:45) And we know that he has a body. (Phil 3:21)
You are correct about the blind man and the elephant. But I cannot possibly understand how there could ever be more than one thing without something that separates one of those things from the other(s). Even if it is some kind of invisible membrane or something.
Anyway, that's been my understanding for over 200 pages of this thread, and it hasn't changed since the beginning.
peace,
mikeMike,
I agree that Jesus is both spirit and body.I also do not understand it, but believe it is indicated by scripture, guess that's what makes it a different reality.
My opinion – Wm
ST,What is it that is hard to understand here?
You rightly say that Jesus is both Man AND Spirit – but he cannot be BOTH at the same time for Man (In flesh) cannot enter heaven!
So Jesus must transition between the two states.
Is that not what even Angels do who appear in the visible world in the shape of Mankind (or otherwise) and just as easily disappear back to the invisible heavenly realm.
What Mikeboll is saying is that there MUST BE something that is a CONTAINER BODY for the invisible IMMATERIAL Spirit in Heaven although how that is conceivable is a feat in itself seeing that what Container would there be a requirement for to contain an IMMATERIAL entity…?
That Container would then have to be a MATERIAL Container – and MATERIAL is FLESH.
– Flesh in Heaven??? Someone knows more than God and Jesus – so it seems!!Even God has a body then ….and would then only be in ONE PLACE….;
“Where can I go to hide from your Spirit: if I go down to the depth of the earth, to Hell, you are there; if go to the ends of the earth you are there; inside the fiercest Fire, your spirit is there also.” (My paraphrase of Psalm 139:7: “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?”)
Istari! You are right. Jesus is a Spirit Being, not flesh and Spirit. When He wanted to show His disciples He manifest Himself to show them that He rose from the death.1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote 1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. There is nothing in this verse that prevents flesh and bone from entering.
My opinion – Wm
Hi ST,
Do you mean like a new uncorrupted spiritual body like that talked about in the scriptures?With Love and Respect,
WispringWispring,
Yes the new uncorrupted spiritual body that includes flesh and bones, also spoke of in scriptures.My opinion – Wm
Interesting:
'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God'
but
'Flesh and Bone can inherit the kingdom of God'?Interesting take… What are you two guys trying to say?
Is this your solution to how Jesus is both Spirit and yet is also Man in flesh?Invisible bodies of Flesh and Bone … Perhaps you do not understand that 'Flesh' is any kind of Material Matter. In the Old Testament it was called 'Dust'.
How is it you cannot believe that a metaphorical example that:
'Invisible' atoms of Oxygen and Hydrogen that are EVERYWHERE can come together at one point and create Water droplets. These can be scattered over relatively large areas and are independent melecules.Water droplets in a CONTAINER forms a (fluid) BODY OF WATER. But has no fixed shape other than it's container – change the shape of the container – change the 'shape' of the fluid within!
A frozen body of such Water becomes a Solid Body called ICE which requires (to the greater extent) no external container – it is a body in it's own right – self-retained. All movement of one part requires movement of the whole.
So, invisible Spirit that is everywhere – transformed to solid visible body in a single place… And back again to invisible Spirit.
So, too, the Spirits of God… But with Intelligence as their driver for change and actioning of deed.
The Spirit in the material world appears first in shimmering form, fluid, non-descript features in White apparel.
They perform a deed: deliver a message, perform an act, do a deed. Then immediately disappear again.
The 'long haul' Spirit goes the whole hog and materialises to a solid but still non-featured flesh body that requires maintaing with food and drink like any human body! The Spirit dwells IN THAT BODY and must maintain it else it will the body will decay and DIE.
Jesus' Spiritual Body is different – it cannot Decay – cannot Die AND is featured with holes in it's hands and feet.
Jesus WILL BE recognised on earth as whom he is NOW.
others with defects will be made whole but Jesus will retain his defect as a memorial to his sacrifice : the Lamb as if slaughtered from time!What is your concept of an 'Invisible Body'?
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2011,23:31) Quote 1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. There is nothing in this verse that prevents flesh and bone from entering.
My opinion – Wm
Hi Wm,FLESH cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Forget the “bone versus blood” debate and deal only with the word “flesh”.
It cannot enter.
mike
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,18:17) What Mikeboll is saying is that there MUST BE something that is a CONTAINER BODY for the invisible IMMATERIAL Spirit in Heaven although how that is conceivable is a feat in itself seeing that what Container would there be a requirement for to contain an IMMATERIAL entity…?
That Container would then have to be a MATERIAL Container – and MATERIAL is FLESH.
– Flesh in Heaven??? Someone knows more than God and Jesus – so it seems!!
Istari,Don't rely on our puny human intellect here. NOTHING is “immaterial”.
Even a man's thoughts are made of “material”. You think that because 21st century scientists have not discovered the means by which to DETECT this material, it means this material doesn't exist. And you prove this flawed human reasoning by your statement, “MATERIAL is FLESH”.
How do you figure? Is microscopic space dust floating through the galaxies “FLESH”? No. Yet it IS “MATERIAL” nonetheless, right?
Human minds used to look at the clear, invisible air that we breathe and imaging IT was also “immaterial”. Yet even our puny brains have now discovered that is not the case at all. “Immaterial” air is made up of many materials.
Food for thought.
mike
I believe 'facts' are being developed by people more from a desire to fit their doctrine then from scripture. I say that Jesus is flesh and bone because He said it. As far as it entering heaven, well… He did. Now as to it not being possible I guess I missed that in scripture. I suppose there could there be a scenario where our 'bodies are put on hold' as our spiritual bodies travel about heaven, I don't know. I believe something like that in reverse for angels visiting our reality but in their case your adding something to their being in reverse you would what, go into stasis to keep your body here.
Adding or subtracting from scripture (not a good idea) can be just claiming that scripture states more then what it says. I don't object to speculating beyond what we're told just don't claim it as more than just your opinion.
My opinion – Wm
Irene,
Thank you for your support and understanding.Jesus IS A SPIRIT …. in Heaven and a Flesh and Bone Man when on Earth.
He will walk among those who asceed to life after the second resurrection to paradise earth as he outlined to the thief on the cross who repented :'You will be with me in Paradise'.The transition from Spirit to Flesh and back is through Materialisation and Dematerialisation.
It may help not to strain at this concept but use analogy as your mind allows.
Is it possible that Jesus was in the middle transitional state when Mary Magdelene tried to touch him. She would have found he was not 'touchable' and become frightened thinking he was a 'Ghost', an Apparition!
WM,
You have an interesting take on things.Mike, I thought you had given up on this thread?
You, too, have an interesting take on this issue. Perhaps you could expand on your idea of whatever it is you believe as that seems to be a missing link in your theory at the moment.
You have managed to agree both ends – but not the middle!JA…………I disagree with you on this, Jesus is NOT a SPIRIT, Jesus is a MAN who has SPIRIT (IN) HIM. He has all the “SEVEN SPIRITS” OF GOD (in) him. Your perception of Spirit is Flawed IMO. Spirit does not have a body nor can be made into a body now or ever, (IT) simply exists (IN) bodies. In ours also and when a person dies the Spirit that was (IN) him goes back to him who gave it, Spirit is Spirit and Flesh is Flesh they do not mix, they cohabit, as in the case of Jesus and the Father who he said was (IN) Him. Spirit is simply put (INTELLECT) and if it is of GOD it is Godly intellect. A Spirit is useless by it self it must be (IN) something in order for it to animate it through thoughts or intellects. And the includes clean and unclean Spirits OR Thoughts also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Quote (Istari @ April 23 2011,10:29) Oh Mike,
I nearly missed a point:Please give me a definition of 'Spirit', thanks.
From NETNotes:1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal,
coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his
personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work
and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels,
thinks, decides2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least
all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing,
desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived
as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest
angels andequal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul
of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouthI've bolded the two meanings relevant to this thread, underlined what I've just noticed that agrees with what I said in my last post here, and struck through what I consider as not true.
That should give you an idea where I stand on the issue of “spirit”.
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 23 2011,10:12) I say that Jesus is flesh and bone because He said it.
Hi Wm,Do you suppose the flesh and bone body with holes in it is the “glorious new body” Paul said Jesus has been given in Phil 3:21?
mike
Quote (Istari @ April 23 2011,10:27) You have managed to agree both ends – but not the middle!
But more importantly, I've managed to agree with the scriptures.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2011,01:17) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 23 2011,10:12) I say that Jesus is flesh and bone because He said it.
Hi Wm,Do you suppose the flesh and bone body with holes in it is the “glorious new body” Paul said Jesus has been given in Phil 3:21?
mike
Yes I do, I believe these holes were 'preserved' as a reminder of what it cost for our redemption.My opinion – Wm
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