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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 02 2011,14:55) Irene……..Its not me making you dizzy , it you lack of understand scriptures that is. Jesus plainly said he was in the Father and the Father was (IN) him, and even More He said he was (IN) his disciples and His disciples were in Him . How do you think they are all ONE. You simply do not understand what Spirit is and How it works, But just so you can't say we are making up things. I will quote Jesus for you and maybe you might start to believe it. You dizziness may be in not knowing the scriptures and what Spirit really IS. John 14:20……> In that day you shall know I am (IN) my Father and You (IN) me and I (IN) YOU.
peace and love…………………………………..gene
Was not Jesus with the apostles when he said that?
So, what part of Jesus was in the Father, and what part of him was in the apostles, in all of them?
And what is the “MIND” that was in Jesus, and should be in us?Georg
Georg……….This is accomplished by the SPIRIT of GOD it is the common denominator among God , Jesus, and all (TRUE) Disciples and A TRUE DISCIPLE of Jesus (CAN) do GREATER WORKS then HE DID. But you preexistences do not believe that even though Jesus himself said it. Because you are the decedents of the Gnostic's and Trinitarians , the original Separatist and preachers of Preexistences have decieved the whole world in believing these LIES. Of MYSTERY RELIGION. None who believe Jesus preexisted his berth on earth and created everything are of GOD. No where in scripture does it say GOD CREATES THROUGH ANYONE> While GOD may Speak (THROUGH) a Man, He certainly does NOT CREATE THROUGH them.
Georg because you believe a Spirit is a BODY of some kind you are unable to understand What Jesus meant by He (IN) Us and we (IN) Him and God (IN) all and through ALL. IMO
peace and love…………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2011,00:22) Georg……….This is accomplished by the SPIRIT of GOD it is the common denominator among God , Jesus, and all (TRUE) Disciples and A TRUE DISCIPLE of Jesus (CAN) do GREATER WORKS then HE DID. But you preexistences do not believe that even though Jesus himself said it. Because you are the decedents of the Gnostic's and Trinitarians , the original Separatist and preachers of Preexistences have decieved the whole world in believing these LIES. Of MYSTERY RELIGION. None who believe Jesus preexisted his berth on earth and created everything are of GOD. No where in scripture does it say GOD CREATES THROUGH ANYONE> While GOD may Speak (THROUGH) a Man, He certainly does NOT CREATE THROUGH them. Georg because you believe a Spirit is a BODY of some kind you are unable to understand What Jesus meant by He (IN) Us and we (IN) Him and God (IN) all and through ALL. IMO
peace and love…………………………….gene
geneyou still do not understand ,what Christ was saying about the ;Disciples and A TRUE DISCIPLE of Jesus (CAN) do GREATER WORKS then HE DID.
and this is true;look Jesus made 12 disciples lost one,they were 120 in the high room at the pentecost ,and were about 500 wen he went up to heaven,
only at the pentocost wen Peter talked ;and about three thousand were added to their number.
and later ;Ac 4:4 But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand(5000)
gene
what you do not understand is the work that Christ came for he started but it was his apostles who would do the most of the work.even us all who believe we are the fallowers of the apostels written words,and the Jews law ++Jesus told his apostles that the works they will do ;;
Mt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
Mt 28:17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
Mt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”if we are Christ disciples we should do the same,in truth.
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 03 2011,17:22) Georg……….This is accomplished by the SPIRIT of GOD it is the common denominator among God , Jesus, and all (TRUE) Disciples and A TRUE DISCIPLE of Jesus (CAN) do GREATER WORKS then HE DID. But you preexistences do not believe that even though Jesus himself said it. Because you are the decedents of the Gnostic's and Trinitarians , the original Separatist and preachers of Preexistences have decieved the whole world in believing these LIES. Of MYSTERY RELIGION. None who believe Jesus preexisted his berth on earth and created everything are of GOD. No where in scripture does it say GOD CREATES THROUGH ANYONE> While GOD may Speak (THROUGH) a Man, He certainly does NOT CREATE THROUGH them. Georg because you believe a Spirit is a BODY of some kind you are unable to understand What Jesus meant by He (IN) Us and we (IN) Him and God (IN) all and through ALL. IMO
peace and love…………………………….gene
As I told TK, any one who rejects the word of God, the Bible, as truth, should not be allowed to post in this “believers” section; that means you Gene.Georg
Georg……………..The same applies to YOU> Because it is obvious you do not believe the scriptures which i Posted and and do nothing but force the text to fit you past assoications with Your trinitarian and Gnostic roots. And don't give me or TK we Don't believe Crap. It is you who does not believe Jesus or his words or what scripture TRULY Says. You and other who believe like you are those who create a false Image of our BROTHER JESUS OUR LORD. IMO
gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2011,01:41) Georg……………..The same applies to YOU> Because it is obvious you do not believe the scriptures which i Posted and and do nothing but force the text to fit you past assoications with Your trinitarian and Gnostic roots. And don't give me or TK we Don't believe Crap. It is you who does not believe Jesus or his words or what scripture TRULY Says. You and other who believe like you are those who create a false Image of our BROTHER JESUS OUR LORD. IMO gene
Why don't you show me my Gnostic roots, and my trinitarian believes, as you seem to know more about them, then I do.
Georg
Gene,
Georg may not know of the central Gnostic beliefs. One thing they believe that George also believes is that the mind is the spirit. I believe the Gnostics were referring to their hunt for the knowledge that they were one part of the Godhead, a corruption of the Unity of the Spirit.
The Gnostics also held that flesh is corrupt and so cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact they extend that to all matter.
The Trinitarian belief is a scalled down version of the central Gnostic one.
The Gnostics also believed Jesus was a spiritual being. Some even denied he walked in the corrupted flesh of this world or that he currently dwells in incorruptable flesh.
I tend to believe like you that such Gnostic beliefs infiltrated the church a long time ago and have evolved into a number of types of related beliefs that many use scripture to justify. God warns us to test the spirit of our beliefs.
George seems to find it hard to believe that other have sincere beliefs they have gleaned from scripture that disagree with his.
We should all be careful not to let scripture be our God and thus follow an interpretation of the World. Instead God must be our God so we will understand Scripture corrrectly.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 04 2011,15:26) Gene, Georg may not know of the central Gnostic beliefs. One thing they believe that George also believes is that the mind is the spirit. I believe the Gnostics were referring to their hunt for the knowledge that they were one part of the Godhead, a corruption of the Unity of the Spirit.
The Gnostics also held that flesh is corrupt and so cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact they extend that to all matter.
The Trinitarian belief is a scalled down version of the central Gnostic one.
The Gnostics also believed Jesus was a spiritual being. Some even denied he walked in the corrupted flesh of this world or that he currently dwells in incorruptable flesh.
I tend to believe like you that such Gnostic beliefs infiltrated the church a long time ago and have evolved into a number of types of related beliefs that many use scripture to justify. God warns us to test the spirit of our beliefs.
George seems to find it hard to believe that other have sincere beliefs they have gleaned from scripture that disagree with his.
We should all be careful not to let scripture be our God and thus follow an interpretation of the World. Instead God must be our God so we will understand Scripture corrrectly.
Kerwin! You don't even know all of our believes, do you? I said it before whoever keeps on giving others labels, have a righteous attitude. just because we and others, like t8 and Mike, believe in those Scriptures that prove preexisting of Jesus, we are not Gnostic. You have never taken any of those Scriptures and tell me what the do say…..
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John believed it, and who is the Word of God.Is this Jesusin
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
I don't think there is any other being that fits this description. Do you know of one???
Jesus said this
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
and
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Now I want you to tell me what these Scriptures say, before you judge us…..and if you interpret them right, I will be glad to say I was wrong…..also No adding or subtracting from Scriptures…..
Peace IreneIrene,
The Gnostiics also backed up their beliefs with their interpretation of scripture. Does that mean they were correct?
What is the spirit of God's Word?
When you understand that then perhaps you will begin to understand why Jesus could have no advantage over every other human being that could not be attained by each and every other human being.
In understanding that you would come to understand why Jesus is not and never was a spiritual being.
Until then I cannot give you what you do not have. God is the one that gives understanding.
I will point out this. Jesus proved that a human being can be tempted by evil and yet not sin. In doing so he proved that those who claim human being must sin speak falsehoods. It is only human beings who do not have or do do not live according to the Spirit of Rigeousness that must sin. The must sin because their old spirit is a slave to sin. Jesus put that spirit to death on the cross.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 04 2011,15:26) Gene, Georg may not know of the central Gnostic beliefs. One thing they believe that George also believes is that the mind is the spirit. I believe the Gnostics were referring to their hunt for the knowledge that they were one part of the Godhead, a corruption of the Unity of the Spirit.
The Gnostics also held that flesh is corrupt and so cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact they extend that to all matter.
The Trinitarian belief is a scalled down version of the central Gnostic one.
The Gnostics also believed Jesus was a spiritual being. Some even denied he walked in the corrupted flesh of this world or that he currently dwells in incorruptable flesh.
I tend to believe like you that such Gnostic beliefs infiltrated the church a long time ago and have evolved into a number of types of related beliefs that many use scripture to justify. God warns us to test the spirit of our beliefs.
George seems to find it hard to believe that other have sincere beliefs they have gleaned from scripture that disagree with his.
We should all be careful not to let scripture be our God and thus follow an interpretation of the World. Instead God must be our God so we will understand Scripture corrrectly.
Kerwin………Right on , the Gnostic's false teachings is what is the basic cause of the separation of Jesus from human kind and this is the bottom line of the false teachings it was the teaching of this (separation) that John was referring to when he said that they were Antichrists, and indeed they are, because all who separate Jesus from Us and the Human Race are indeed Antichrists. The whole teaching about the Man of Sin envelops this idea that Jesus is not like us He is a GOD MAN, or demigod of some kind a man who takes his sit in the temple of GOD being displayed as a GOD, or anything other than a MAN, and ALL such teachings like that of the trinitarians and preexistences are the underpinning of these false teachings they work to separate Jesus from our (EXACT) identity. The iniquity is in the SEPARATION teachings from man kind. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 05 2011,09:11) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 04 2011,15:26) Gene, Georg may not know of the central Gnostic beliefs. One thing they believe that George also believes is that the mind is the spirit. I believe the Gnostics were referring to their hunt for the knowledge that they were one part of the Godhead, a corruption of the Unity of the Spirit.
The Gnostics also held that flesh is corrupt and so cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact they extend that to all matter.
The Trinitarian belief is a scalled down version of the central Gnostic one.
The Gnostics also believed Jesus was a spiritual being. Some even denied he walked in the corrupted flesh of this world or that he currently dwells in incorruptable flesh.
I tend to believe like you that such Gnostic beliefs infiltrated the church a long time ago and have evolved into a number of types of related beliefs that many use scripture to justify. God warns us to test the spirit of our beliefs.
George seems to find it hard to believe that other have sincere beliefs they have gleaned from scripture that disagree with his.
We should all be careful not to let scripture be our God and thus follow an interpretation of the World. Instead God must be our God so we will understand Scripture corrrectly.
Kerwin………Right on , the Gnostic's false teachings is what is the basic cause of the separation of Jesus from human kind and this is the bottom line of the false teachings it was the teaching of this (separation) that John was referring to when he said that they were Antichrists, and indeed they are, because all who separate Jesus from Us and the Human Race are indeed Antichrists. The whole teaching about the Man of Sin envelops this idea that Jesus is not like us He is a GOD MAN, or demigod of some kind a man who takes his sit in the temple of GOD being displayed as a GOD, or anything other than a MAN, and ALL such teachings like that of the trinitarians and preexistences are the underpinning of these false teachings they work to separate Jesus from our (EXACT) identity. The iniquity is in the SEPARATION teachings from man kind. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene
Kerwin and geneon this one you are out on a limb,because you do not accept scriptures ,that are presented to you ,
and so are in denial of truth,your interpretation does not mean a thing if you do not presented in and with the understanding of scriptures .
your opinion on personal interpretation is free for all but also useless to all.
for example Gene deny s preexistence of Christ ;but he never could prove it,that it is not scriptural wen he tried he as to deny 40 or so other scriptures,so he failled .
and you kerwin your believes in your men made logic;you come to some conclusion that the bible as to be rewritten whit words more to your likeness,this is absurd thinking,
you make me think about the immigrant who move to a new country and refuse to accept the new language of that country and wishes that all the people there endorse his language.you two guys are on a league of you own making not of God spirit at all.
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 04 2011,19:13) Irene, The Gnostiics also backed up their beliefs with their interpretation of scripture. Does that mean they were correct?
What is the spirit of God's Word?
When you understand that then perhaps you will begin to understand why Jesus could have no advantage over every other human being that could not be attained by each and every other human being.
In understanding that you would come to understand why Jesus is not and never was a spiritual being.
Until then I cannot give you what you do not have. God is the one that gives understanding.
I will point out this. Jesus proved that a human being can be tempted by evil and yet not sin. In doing so he proved that those who claim human being must sin speak falsehoods. It is only human beings who do not have or do do not live according to the Spirit of Rigeousness that must sin. The must sin because their old spirit is a slave to sin. Jesus put that spirit to death on the cross.
Kerwin, just labeling and not going by the Scriptures, makes no sense. I asked you to tell me who that is inRev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
and all you can do again is labeling me Gnostic.
WHO IS THIS PERSON OR BEING IN THIS SCRIPTURE
Also I can explain who that is YOU HOWEVER HAVE IGNORED
IT…..So all the Scriptures that speak of Jesus saying for instance Quote:” I have come down from Heaven, not to do Mine own will but the will of my Father.” If you believe Jesus that He came from Heaven, is Gnostic. That is a lot of bull……In fact when you say that you are calling Jesus a liar….and a Gnostic also…..along with Mike, Georg, Pierre and t8…Thank you Kerwin…I am in good company….
Peace Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 04 2011,19:13) I will point out this. Jesus proved that a human being can be tempted by evil and yet not sin. In doing so he proved that those who claim human being must sin speak falsehoods.
Hi Kerwin,All men inherit sin from our father, Adam. Jesus did not have the same father as the rest of us. He was different.
All sons of Adam are born into sin……….we really have no choice in the matter. If men could get to a point where they DIDN'T sin, then why in the earth would God's own Son have had to die a brutal death to atone for our sins?
Name the son of Adam that has never sinned in his lifetime, Kerwin.
mike
Mike,
Scripture declares Jesus is a son of Adam, Luke 3:23-38. More specifically he is the Son of Adam, i.e. man.
I believe you are speaking of a male only ancestry and thus is virgin conception eliminates that connections.
That fact is not relevant to why Jesus did not choose to sin. If you read Galatians 5:16 it specifically states those who walk by the spirit do not sin even though tempted as other human beings. Scripture does not lie and so any human being who walks by the spirit does not sin even though they are tempted. It is simple to see why since it is God’s spirit and all things are possible with him. That is a point of faith that those who are believers will believe. Jesus believed.
Scripture foretells how Jesus received the Spirit when we are told in Isaiah 42:1 that God would place his spirit on his chosen servant with whom he delights. God did as he stated and Jesus glorified God by living according to the Spirit of God.
I speak of faith. We must believe that by the power of God we will overcome all our sins if we obey all of Jesus teachings. This task is not impossible as God will do the work for us if we believe and persevere in that belief.
Remember also that scripture teaches us that “faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”, Hebrews 11:1
Have faith for through that faith you will overcome the world and the things of the world.
Kerwin………..Right on brother very good Post, we need to all think about it. Remember John said all who are born of the Spirit do not Sin, because His Seed (the seed of GOD) abides (IN) Him. I also believe if we live to the Spirit we do not sin but we are being washed continually and cleansed by the washing of the word and the effectual working of GOD'S Spirit. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Kerwin……………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2011,14:07) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 04 2011,19:13) I will point out this. Jesus proved that a human being can be tempted by evil and yet not sin. In doing so he proved that those who claim human being must sin speak falsehoods.
Hi Kerwin,All men inherit sin from our father, Adam. Jesus did not have the same father as the rest of us. He was different.
All sons of Adam are born into sin……….we really have no choice in the matter. If men could get to a point where they DIDN'T sin, then why in the earth would God's own Son have had to die a brutal death to atone for our sins?
Name the son of Adam that has never sinned in his lifetime, Kerwin.
mike
Mike………Show one scripture that say all men (INHERIT) SIN because of ADAM or anyone else for that matter.peace and love……………………………….gene
For Kerwin and Gene:
Romans 3:23 NIV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,Romans 5:12 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—Romans 7 NIV
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Sin is inherited by ALL men from the father of ALL men. And Kerwin, scripture doesn't ever say we inherited sin from Eve, but ONLY from our father Adam. Jesus did not have this same father Adam as everyone else does.
But you can clearly see from Romans 7 that even Paul still sinned. You guys seem to think you can undo the very sin we were all born into. That is not what scripture teaches. It teaches us to TRY to overide our sinful desires. And it teaches us that, since the former will be impossible, it is a blessing that Jesus died to atone for the sins we have no choice but to commit.
Neither of you can name one person born of Adam who has never sinned, nor will ever sin again. You cannot “will yourself” to not sin, anymore than you can “will yourself” to grow a tail. You are born into sin just as you were born without a tail.
And if you're thinking about “with faith, you can do anything”, consider this: The things you can do by faith MUST be things that God wants done in the first place. You cannot will a mountain to be thrown into the sea by faith, unless God decides that throwing that mountain into the sea will glorify Himself in some way.
Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
You see? Even the most avid follower of Christ is still subject to bodily death because of sin that we can't possibly avoid.peace and love,
mikeMike………..Again twisting of scriptures , when it say all have sinned , that is (NOT) the (SAME) as saying all have “INHERITED SIN”. Each person shall give account for himself and what he has done it this life , he can not use a cop out and say , it was not my fault after all i (INHERITED SIN) that would make GOD and Unjust GOD. The only thing we INHERITED From Adam and EVE was our Bodies of flesh, and not bay is born a sinner he (BECOMES) One, By being exposed to it from the world. AS John said “FOR ALL THAT IS IN THE WORLD THE LUST OF THE EYES AND THE LUST OF THE FLESH (now notice if you can) “ARE FROM THE WORLD” . Get it Mike you were NOT BORN a SINNER YOU (BECAME A SINNER). There is a “PROPENSITY” in give in to sin that is in the world though i will give you that. IMO
peace and love……………………………………………gene
Gene,
Read it again:
Romans 5:12 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—Sin entered the world throuh ONE MAN, and in this way, sin and death came to ALL PEOPLE.
It doesn't say “everyone except Kerwin and Gene”, but ALL PEOPLE.
Gene, if sin came to ALL through Adam, then we ALL “inherited” this sin from our forefather. We are “born into sin” and there's really nothing you can do about it.
So, try not to sin to the best of your ability. But don't ever make the mistake of thinking you will accomplish it. It's out of your hands. That's why Jesus died to ATONE FOR OUR SINS. If it was just a matter of us never sinning again if we only tried hard enough, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die to ATONE FOR OUR SINS.
Get it?
Gene, just give me the name of the ONE son of Adam in the history of the world who didn't sin, or could control himself so that he never sins again. There is none, because through Adam, sin came to ALL PEOPLE.
mike
MIke…………..Wrong, Jesus was a son of ADAM and as i recall he did not sin, But see how your confusion causes you not to even believe Jesus was the Son of Adam and Yet without sin. Mike it say sin entered into the WORLD through ADAM, it does not say we inherited any sin from ADAM, that is you conjecture of what is being said, while sin did after Adam then existed in the world and infected all men except Jesus. That is a far cry from saying we (INHERITED SIN) From ADAM . Every man shall give an account of himself before God we can't blame it on ADAM.
peace and love…………………………………gene
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