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Marty;
Quote The evidence of him speaking of the future ascension is that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus of being born again, and that means born again from the dead. I have heard of that assumption but what evidence supports it. John Baptism was a immersion of repentance; though it lacked the power of immersion in Jesus' name. A repentant man has different spirit after he repents than before.
It was the duty of a teacher of God to know that and yet Nicodemus sounded ignorant.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2012,09:04) Hi KW,
Different as in a cleansed temple?
he may also be given the Holy Spirit.
Nick,They are credited with being clean; as Jesus credited Peter; even though Spirit had yet not come with power.
Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2012,19:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2012,23:53) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2012,11:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2012,21:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,20:22) Hi MB,
Yes souls are under the altar.
But how does that help your opinion?
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.Who are the “firstfruits” that are made alive in Christ BEFORE he comes again? Perhaps the souls under the altar who used to be men who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained?
Mike;Thank you for that point of view of that Scripture; which I believed refer to being alive spiritually.
Hi Kerwin,When Paul speaks of Christ being made alive by the resurrection, he is not speaking figuratively, but literally. Why then would you not assume that he spoke literally of “the firstfruits” also?
Mike;People are made spiritually alive in Christ. Never the less that passage could be speaking of those made physically alive. That hypothesis is new to me and I have not looked into it.
Thanks for your consideration, Kerwin.Marty? Nick?
Who do you suppose “the firstfruits” are – the ones who are made alive after Christ, but before Christ comes again?
I see these as the souls under the altar, who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. I see them as the ones who would not taste death before Jesus comes in his glory.
Your thoughts?
Quote (942767 @ May 19 2012,16:04) Hi KW: The evidence of him speaking of the future ascension is that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus of being born again, and that means born again from the dead.
Mike;
It is written:
Revelation 6:9
King James Version (KJV)9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
It seems to reference the following words as Jesus gave his life upon the spiritual altar atone for those souls; and the souls of their brothers.
Leviticus 17:11
King James Version (KJV)11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
They are the souls of dead Christians as they are told to rest awhile.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2012,15:42) Hi KW,
The Spirit spoke through Peter though he was yet imperfect.
Nick;I agree.
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2012,09:52) They are the souls of dead Christians as they are told to rest awhile.
I agree. And while most souls await the resurrection from Hades, where they are conscious of nothing at all, these particular souls await the coming reign of God from His presence, conscious of their surroundings and wearing white robes.Do you see any scriptural reason that these cannot be the “firstfruits”, or the ones who would not taste death until Jesus returns?
Mike;
All the dead have tasted death; even those under the altar on which Jesus the High Priest sacrificed himself.
There is those that rose and came out of their graves when Jesus did. There are also Enoch, Mosses, and Elijah.
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2012,10:33) Mike; All the dead have tasted death………..
Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”Then who were these?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2012,22:42) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2012,10:33) Mike; All the dead have tasted death………..
Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”Then who were these?
Mike,Jesus did not know the times or the seasons because Yawheh retained the power to decide them.
Acts 1
King James Version (KJV)6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.Revelation tells us John did see Jesus come into his kingdom; though it was a vision.
There may well me those that were caught up into heaven; as were Elijah and Enoch.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2012,01:07) Hi KW,
“IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW”
does not say
HE DID NOT KNOW.Which heaven?
Nick;Genesis 1
King James Version (KJV)1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
…
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Which heaven was created as part of forming earth and which ones were not?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2012,02:36) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2012,19:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2012,23:53) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2012,11:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2012,21:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,20:22) Hi MB,
Yes souls are under the altar.
But how does that help your opinion?
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.Who are the “firstfruits” that are made alive in Christ BEFORE he comes again? Perhaps the souls under the altar who used to be men who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained?
Mike;Thank you for that point of view of that Scripture; which I believed refer to being alive spiritually.
Hi Kerwin,When Paul speaks of Christ being made alive by the resurrection, he is not speaking figuratively, but literally. Why then would you not assume that he spoke literally of “the firstfruits” also?
Mike;People are made spiritually alive in Christ. Never the less that passage could be speaking of those made physically alive. That hypothesis is new to me and I have not looked into it.
Thanks for your consideration, Kerwin.Marty? Nick?
Who do you suppose “the firstfruits” are – the ones who are made alive after Christ, but before Christ comes again?
I see these as the souls under the altar, who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. I see them as the ones who would not taste death before Jesus comes in his glory.
Your thoughts?
Hi Mike:The firstfruits are those who were saved during the ministry of Jesus here on earth and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost on the day of pentecost after his resurrection. He is included in these firstfruits.
These:
Quote Act 1:4 ¶ And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me. Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James.
Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Act 1:15 ¶ And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Act 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Mike:
I may be wrong in my statement above relative to the firstfruits being all who were saved during Jesus ministry because of the following scripture:
Quote 1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. And so, he is the “firstfruits of them who slept” and then there will be those who will be his at his coming for the church.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ May 20 2012,13:04) There may well me those that were caught up into heaven; as were Elijah and Enoch.
This is how I understand it, Kerwin.I believe that the firstfruits ARE those who would not taste death before Jesus came again, who ARE those souls under the altar who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
But thanks for your input.
Quote (942767 @ May 20 2012,15:57) Hi Mike: I may be wrong in my statement above relative to the firstfruits being all who were saved during Jesus ministry because of the following scripture:
Quote 1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. And so, he is the “firstfruits of them who slept” and then there will be those who will be his at his coming for the church.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,The scripture you posted teaches that Jesus was the very first fruit of the “firstfruits”. But read verse 23:
23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.1. First Christ, who we know was literally raised from the dead.
2. Then, “the (rest of the) firstfruits”.
3. Then, when he comes, the rest of those who belong to him.My concern is about line #2. It seems the teaching is that these “firstfruits” were to be made alive AFTER Jesus was made alive, but BEFORE Jesus comes again. And that would fit in with the teaching of some not tasting death before Jesus comes in his glory, and also with the souls under the altar, who seem to be very much alive.
Thanks for your help and consideration on this subject.
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