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Genesis 2:4… This is the account of the heaven and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heaven.
My question is simple…
CARMEL, IS GEN 2:4 SPEAKING OF TWO DIFFERENT HEAVENS AND EARTHS? YES OR NO PLEASE?
If NO, then your entire “created” vs “made” argument is debunked, right?
Carmel, I’m also waiting for your example of the plural word “days” referring to something other than literal days.
If there is no clear example, then Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 (“in six days Yahweh made”) make it undeniably clear that heaven, earth and everything in them were made in six literal days.
This challenge is also for Gene and Pretender (formerly known as “Proclaimer”).
Gene and I are participating in a private thread right now – after years of talking past each other. So far, it is working out great, as we are both willing participants trying to resolve our disagreements through respectful discourse.
Unfortunately, the same can’t be said for my private thread on “The Bible Vs Scientism” with Pretender. As I presumed, he is trying anything and everything to AVOID having a respectful discourse to resolve our disagreements. And since he has been ignoring the thread altogether, I have been sending him PMs. Since there isn’t any sensitive information in them, I will share them with you all so you can see that the owner of this site is a coward and a scared little girl who runs away crying from a battle.
Here is where I answered his last question for the third time…
Notice that it is the post number that I told him in my second PM to him above. Now he’s asking it to be linked to him – even though the last page of the thread only has seven posts, and this answer is the second post on the page. It would take him all of 10 seconds to find it there – especially considering that I gave him the actual post number TWO WEEKS AGO! 😂
And I would be happy to link it, but the link system doesn’t work on this site. Any time I try to link a particular POST NUMBER – the link always takes you to the opening post of the thread. (Maybe I’m doing something wrong. I just right click on the post number, and hit “Copy Link” – but each time the link it creates goes to the OP of the thread.)
And he’s also crying because, after ignoring my questions for six weeks, there are now four of them to answer. Really Pretender? You are incapable of answering a SINGLE question in a WEEK? 😅
Here is the very last post on the thread, from TWO WEEKS AGO, which contains all four questions…
Hey Pretender… how about I just answer them for you. Let’s see how long it takes me to fight my way though this huge “dog’s breakfast” of an untidy mess…
1. There is no scriptural evidence that the sun, moon, and stars existed before God made them on day four.
2. If the Micah prophecy had mentioned the evening of the first day and the morning of the second day, then the days would most definitely be literal days.
3. No, the plural word “days” never refers to anything other than literal days in the Bible – or in the history of mankind in general.
4. The earth is always listed as separate from the sea in scripture, because the word “earth” refers only to the dry ground on which we live, and never to the entire earth/sea world in which we live – whether that world is a pancake or a ball.
There you go, Pretender. It took me all of 90 seconds to finally muddle my way through that terrible dog’s breakfast of mind-numbing turmoil! 😁😅🤣
As for the “if you don’t ask a question in one week, I can ask another” rule, here is where I mentioned it…
It was the seventh post on the very first page of the thread – before you had even asked your first question. You did not add it to the OP Rules as I requested, but it is a fair rule. And the only valid reason anyone would have for arguing against it is if they only posted once a month or once a year or something, and just weren’t here once a week. That is not the case for us. You post new stuff every single week, and most times daily.
So the only other reason for you to try to reject that rule is if, as I mentioned when I asked you to add it to the OP Rules, you DO intend to get out of the debate by just refusing to ask your own question so we can go no further. Is that the case, Pretender? Because I can easily start a different Hot Seat thread with the same title and same rules, and just add that rule into the OP of the new Hot Seat thread, right?
Not that doing that would change anything. You’ve already lost the debate, and it’s clear that you KNOW you’ve lost the debate, and just want it to go away now. I apparently broke your pride, because you’re not even having your normal, condescending discourse in the other threads with anyone else these days. You’re just posting videos and blogs here and there.
You’re not Proclaimer. You are truly Pretender – a scared little girl who turned out to be a coward when it all came down to it. Pathetic.
Hi Mike,
You: CARMEL, IS GEN 2:4 SPEAKING OF TWO DIFFERENT HEAVENS AND EARTHS? YES OR NO PLEASE?
Me: FIRST AND FOREMOST;
WITH YOUR QUESTION YOU CONFIRMED THAT YOU ARE NOT YET READY TO BE FED
ON MEAT!
NOW, YOUR QUESTION ABOVE IS NOT CLEAR ENOUGH TO BE ANSWERED, WITH JUST A SIMPLE
YES OR NO
FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THIS PARTICULAR VERSE IS NOT ONLY REFERRING TO JUST
TWO HEAVENS AND EARTHS, IN FACT ONLY ONE IS DIRECTLY AND SPECIFICALLY REFERRING TO THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH
WHEN THEY WERE MADE!
Let’s read the scripture:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth,
when they were created,
OK, Mike, the above INTRODUCTION is NOT referring to the heaven and the earth as such BUT specifically referring to
THE GENERATIONS OF THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH!
Now in clear plain English, I ask you, WHEN WERE THESE GENERATIONS OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
CREATED?
HERE IT COMES Mr. Milk, WITH EVERY RESPECT.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God CREATED the heavens and earth.
THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE BOTH TO THE HEAVENLY REALMS AND THE COSMOS, BOTH TO THE SPIRITS AND THE PHYSICALS.
NOW THE ABOVE CREATION IS DEFINITELY AND ENTIRELY THE WORK OF GOD THE FATHER, John17:9 BY “THE WORD” JESUS, AS A SPIRIT, HENCE
ENTIRELY SPIRITUAL!
DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY WERE ALSO THROUGHOUT COMPRESSED SPIRIT EMBODIMENTS, CARRIERS OF THE ENDLESS SPIRITS EMANATED FROM THE FATHER, THE ORIGIN OF ALL SPIRITS, BOTH AD INTRA IN RELATION TO THE DEITY, AND AD EXTRA IN RELATION TO ALL CREATURES, IN THIS CASE, THE HEAVENLY HOSTS AS ANGELS AND SO ON.
NOW Mr. Mike, THE HEAVENLY HOSTS DON’T HAVE GENERATIONS.
NO NOVEL!
Now to the second part of
Genesis 2:4…….in the day that the Lord God MADE the heaven and the earth:
Now the above is a clear reference to
THE GENERATIONS of the heaven and the earth,
MADE on a particular day.
NOW, I ASK:
IF THE HEAVENLY HOST HAVE NO GENERATIONS AS SUCH, how on earth this particular scripture says so? Isn’t it obvious that THESE GENERATIONS ARE THE SAME SPIRIT BEINGS CREATED IN GENESIS 1:1 AS SPIRIT BEINGS, AND FOR A REASON THAT IT IS NOT QUITE CLEAR, THESE SAME SPIRITS WERE
MADE BACK ON THE DAY of the supposed six-day creation?
THERE YOU ARE Mr. Milk, with every respect is your answer!
UNLESS YOU ARE BLIND!
JUST IN CASE
THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH MENTIONED IN THE FIRST PART OF Genesis 2:4
WERE CREATED,
and are not the same heaven and the earth mentioned in the second part of the same verse,
SINCE THEY WERE MADE!
TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT
IT’S YOUR PIGEON!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
You: CARMEL, I’M ALSO WAITING FOR YOUR EXAMPLE……
Me: I wish Mike, THAT YOU MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
FIRST YOU ARE NOT READY TO HEAR ANY NOVELS, THEN YOU DON’T WANT SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES, NOW YOU WANT ME TO GIVE YOU
AN EXAMPLE! OBVIOUS SCRIPTURAL, NO?
BUT HOW ON EARTH AM I GOING TO DO THAT, UNLESS I PRODUCE
A NOVEL, OR A SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLE?
Now let’s remind you a bit: hereunder:
Read from page 92 now:
29And in the day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be
ME: AGAIN A PARTICULAR DAY, JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAYS!
Mike from the above it is emphatically clear that Jesus had ONLY ONE option and used the word DAY
WITH RESPECT TO THE CONTEXT!
THOUGH YOUR ARGUMENT IN OUR DAYS SEEMS WRIGHT, IT IS STILL DEBUNKED
UNLESS YOU PROVE IT WITHIN THE SCRIPTURE.
TO BE CLEAR;
THAT, WITHIN SCRIPTURE, THE WRITER HAD THE OPTION TO USE EITHER OR FOR THE SAME CONTEXT.
SO NOW IT IS YOUR JOB TO FIND AT LEAST
ONE PARTICULAR VERSE, NOT ON ITS OWN, BUT WITHIN THE ENTIRE CONTEXT,
WHERE THE WORD DAY COULD ALSO BE USED IN THE PLURAL AS
DAYS!
You: CARMEL, I’M ALSO WAITING FOR YOUR EXAMPLE OF THE PLURAL WORD “DAYS” REFERRING TO SOMETHING OTHER THAN LITERAL DAYS.
Me: I’M AFRAID MR. RATIONAL,
YOU ARE INVENTING THINGS WHICH I NEVER HAD THE LEAST INTENTION TO SAY, NEVER MIND I SAID SO, PLEASE SUBSTANTIATE YOUR POINT AND PRODUCE MY POSTING!
ON THE OTHER HAND,
YOU FIRST HAVE TO PRODUCE AT LEAST ONE VERSE AS EXPLAINED ABOVE WHICH I POSTED BACK IN PAGE 92, I REPEAT:
THAT THE WRITER HAD THE OPTION TO USE AS HE PLEASES EITHER SINGULAR THE WORD
DAY
plural word
DAYS
FOR THE SAME PARTICULAR STATEMENT WITHOUT CHANGING ITS CONTEXT!
THE BALL IS AT YOUR DISPOSAL!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel: OK, Mike, the above INTRODUCTION is NOT referring to the heaven and the earth as such BUT specifically referring to THE GENERATIONS OF THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH!
Fortunately, Brown-Driver-Briggs has the very verse we’re talking about as one of their examples. Gen 2:4 is speaking of the ACCOUNT of the heaven and earth, when they were created/made…
New International Version
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.New Living Translation
This is the account of the creation of the heavens and the earth. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,Berean Study Bible
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.New American Standard Bible
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.Etc, etc, etc.
Btw, the Hebrew word is a form of the word “yalad” – which we consistently translate as “beget” throughout the Bible. So as the Lexicon above points out, Gen 2:4 literally says…
These are the begettings of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
What? Now there are THREE different words that all describe the same exact thing: the origin of the heaven and earth? 😵🤯
Anyway, maybe you could try your argument again using “begettings” or “account” instead of “generations”, and see if it works.
Or better yet, why not just get to addressing Gen 2:4 for the reasons it was brought up in the first place – instead of playing word game diversions like you always do. That’s why I ignore most of your posts, Carmel. Really? You want me to spend time trying to explain to you why “in the form of” does not equate to “was formed”? Or how I may have said “introductory statement” instead of “summary” in some past post? I don’t have time for that kind of nonsense, so let’s just stick to the MEAT (not milk) of the matters from here on out, okay?
Genesis 2:4…
1. Is a very similar opening statement/summary of the more detailed account that follows – JUST LIKE GEN 1:1 – even including the “all-important conjunction” AND.
2. Debunks your idea that the words “begettings”, “created”, “made”, “fashioned”, “established”, “formed” etc – when used in a context such as Gen 2:4 – mean different things when they are actually just different ways of conveying the same exact thing.
Now Carmel, if your claim is right that “created” and “made” mean DIFFERENT things, then Gen 2:4 either talks about TWO DIFFERENT heavens and earths… or it talks about God doing TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things to one heaven and one earth.
Which argument are you going with this time? Two different heavens and earth? Or God doing two different things to the same heaven and earth? Nevermind, I just checked again and saw my answer at the bottom of your post…
Carmel: THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH MENTIONED IN THE FIRST PART OF Genesis 2:4 WERE CREATED, and are not the same heaven and the earth mentioned in the second part of the same verse, SINCE THEY WERE MADE!
Okay, so then Gen 2:4, in your understanding, really says…
This is the account of the FIRST heaven and the earth when they were created, AND ALSO THE ACCOUNT OF when the LORD God made the SECOND earth and the heaven.
Is that your story, dude? Really? And then so naturally, the following detailed account will speak of BOTH of these heavens and BOTH of these earths, right?
Does it?
Mike: CARMEL, I’M ALSO WAITING FOR YOUR EXAMPLE OF THE PLURAL WORD “DAYS” REFERRING TO SOMETHING OTHER THAN LITERAL DAYS.
Carmel: I’M AFRAID MR. RATIONAL,
YOU ARE INVENTING THINGS WHICH I NEVER HAD THE LEAST INTENTION TO SAY, NEVER MIND I SAID SO, PLEASE SUBSTANTIATE YOUR POINT AND PRODUCE MY POSTING!
Thank you for acknowledging that you never claimed that the plural word “days” ever refers to anything other than LITERAL days, and that there is no such example of such in the Bible.
Now I will close my case with that simple fact…
Exodus 20:11… For in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.
The plural word “days” in the above is – as it ALWAYS is – referring to LITERAL days. Ergo, Yahweh undeniably and without question made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them in SIX LITERAL DAYS!
Case closed.
Carmel: YOU FIRST HAVE TO PRODUCE AT LEAST ONE VERSE… THAT THE WRITER HAD THE OPTION TO USE AS HE PLEASES EITHER SINGULAR THE WORD DAY [or the] plural word DAYS FOR THE SAME PARTICULAR STATEMENT WITHOUT CHANGING ITS CONTEXT!
Already asked and answered… by YOU no less! The minute you posted the “Google Battle” (or whatever it’s called) results that showed the singular “day” is used more often then the plural word “days”, you conceded that BOTH of them are used millions of times by millions of people to refer to the same general time period.
So yes, Jesus could have said, “back in the day of Noah”, or “back in the days of Noah”. Either one is acceptable, and both would have meant the same exact thing: an unspecified period of time during which Noah dwelt on earth.
This is just another example of your word game diversions that really have nothing to do with the MEAT (not milk) of our discussion. But you want a scriptural example? Okay…
Micah 7:11-12…The day for rebuilding your walls will come—the day for extending your boundary. On that day they will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates, from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.
Carmel, do you think the walls were rebuilt in a single day? Nehemiah rebuilt them, and it took many days, right? So according to you, Yahweh HAD TO use the plural “days”, right? Yet He used the singular “day” to refer to the same exact unspecified time periods that He would have also been referring to had He used the plural “days”.
BUT… I’m going to concede this trivial battle to you, for the sake of the war. Because accepting your assertion means that Yahweh HAD TO use the plural “days” in Ex 20:11 because He actually did make the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them in SIX LITERAL DAYS.
So thanks for helping me win the war.
Hi Mike,
8435. toledoth
Strong’s Concordance
toledoth: generations
Original Word: תּוֹלְדָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: toledoth
Phonetic Spelling: (to-led-aw’)Definition: generations
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from yaladDefinition
generationsAramaic Bible Translated: These are the generations of Heaven and of Earth when they were created, ….
ASV: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,….
ERV: These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, ….
WEB: This is the history of the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,….
DRB: These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were create
KJV: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created
You: Okay, so then Gen 2:4, in your understanding, really says…
This is the account of
the FIRST (SPIRITUAL) heaven and the earth
when they were created, AND ALSO THE ACCOUNT OF when the LORD God made
the SECOND (PHYSICAL) earth and the heaven.
Is that your story, dude? Really?
THAT’S MORE LIKE IT, Mr. MILK!
You: And then so naturally, the following detailed account will speak of BOTH of these heavens and BOTH of these earths, right?
Does it?
NOT PRECISELY!
NOTICE:
ALL VERSIONS HAVE THE SECOND PART WRITTEN AS
THE EARTH AND THE HEAVENS, WHILE THE FIRST PART IS WRITTEN AS
THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!
ANSWER: WHAT IS THE REASON THAT IT IS WRITTEN IN THAT MANNER?
WHY NOT BOTH THE SAME, I MEAN,
BOTH WRITTEN AS
THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH?
I AM WAITING FOR YOUR PERCEPTION NOW!
WITH THE HOPE THAT YOU LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURE
FROM THE EYE OF THE TRUTH!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
CARMEL, I’M ALSO WAITING FOR YOUR EXAMPLE OF THE PLURAL WORD “DAYS” REFERRING TO SOMETHING OTHER THAN LITERAL DAYS.
Carmel: I’M AFRAID MR. RATIONAL,
YOU ARE INVENTING THINGS WHICH I NEVER HAD THE LEAST INTENTION TO SAY, NEVER MIND I SAID SO, PLEASE SUBSTANTIATE YOUR POINT AND PRODUCE MY POSTING!
YOU: Thank you for acknowledging that you never claimed that the plural word “days” ever refers to anything other than LITERAL days,
and that there is no such example of such in the Bible.
Now I will close my case with that simple fact…
Exodus 20:11… For in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.
The plural word “days” in the above is – as it ALWAYS is – referring to LITERAL days. Ergo, Yahweh undeniably and without question made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them in SIX LITERAL DAYS!
Case closed.
ME: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT,
As you said, I never claimed that the plural word “days” ever refers to anything other than LITERAL days,
and that there is no such SPECIFIC example of such in the Bible.
Now I also asked you to substantiate your point and produce MY POSTING!
Something you never did! WHY?
OBVIOUS, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT I GAVE MY VIEWS IN THIS REGARD, BUT SINCE IT IS NOT ACCORDING TO YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS, YOU LEFT IT OUT!
SO HERE IT IS AGAIN FROM PAGE 95, JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR ACCORDING TO MY UNDERSTANDING!
#931461
ME: Mike, DO YOU ACCEPT THAT IN ACTUAL FACT GOD WAS EXHAUSTED AND RESTED?
You: The word means “ceased”. God ceased the creative work He had been doing on the previous six days. It had nothing to do with God being “tired”.
LET’S SEE!
Me: On the seventh day, according to Exodus 31:17, God “rested and was refreshed.” Why would an omnipotent and inexhaustible God need to be “refreshed”?
It’s the same Hebrew word used for getting your breath back after running a long race (Ex. 23:2; 2 Sam. 16:14). The reason it is not improper to say that God was refreshed is the same reason it’s not improper to say that God breathes, hovers, is like a potter, gardens, searches, asks questions, and comes down, THE LIST IS ENDLESS!
all images of God used in Genesis.
God’s revelation to us is analogical NO?
(neither entirely identical nor entirely dissimilar) and anthropomorphic (accommodated and communicated from our perspective in terms we can understand).
So when God refers to “days,” does he want us to mentally substitute the word “eons” or “ages”? No.
Does he want us to think of precise units of time, marked by 24 exact hours as the earth makes a rotation on its axis? No.
Does he want us to think of the Hebrew workday? Yes, AS YOU SAID,
BUT in an analogical and anthropomorphic sense. Just as the “seventh day” makes us think of an ordinary calendar day
(even though it isn’t technically a 24-hour period),
so the other “six days” are meant to be read in the same way.NO?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
You: The minute you posted the “Google Battle” (or whatever it’s called)
results that showed the singular “day” is used more often then the plural word “days”,
you conceded that BOTH of them are used millions of times by millions of people to refer to the same general time period.
Me: NOT QUITE PRECISE Mike, just for the sake of accuracy read again please:
Carmel: According to Google fight,
back in the days seems more popular:
1,800,000,000 against 584,000,000.
OK, Mike “back in the days” is more popular by THREE TIMES AS MUCH!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Just finished the video. Whilst I’m not a flat earther, never have been, and never will be. It needs to be said. Globe Dave blew Flat Dave out of the water. But Globe Dave was too stupid to get Flat Dave’s point about the spin of earth. Flat Dave was fairly comparing the tilt of the earth to the spin of the earth. I think the answer he was looking for is that the sun has to warm a bigger area when the earth tilts away, so it is when the earth spins away from direct sunlight . Just as it is cooler in winter it is also cooler in the evening. The difference being that it will warm up again in hours due to spin unlike weeks for the tilt of the earth.
Flat earth is seriously one of the funniest arguments I have ever heard. It’s the bottom of the barrel for conspiracy theories. It is totally baffling how stupid some people can be.
Proclaimer…….AMEN TO THAT! I can’t understand why Mike who seems so intellegent, can’t come to understand that, even with the ISS, giving us 24/7 coverage of it. Now that’s a mystery to me.
Peace and love to you and yours………gene
Hi Mike,
Micah 7:11 (1) In the day
that thy walls are to be built,
(2) in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 (3) In that day
also he shall come even to thee from Assyria,
and from the fortified cities,
and from the fortress even to the river,
and from sea to sea,
and from mountain to mountain.
You: Carmel, do you think the walls were rebuilt in a single day?
WHEN WILL YOU GET IT INTO YOUR MIND THAT
IN THE DAY, and IN THAT DAY, has nothing to do with the idioms
BACK IN THE DAY/S
THE ABOVE PHRASES ARE A REFERENCE TO A PARTICULAR DAY!
SO YES DEFINITELY, WHEN I LOOK AT THIS PIECE OF SCRIPTURE FROM
YAHWEH’S SIDE POINT OF VIEW, IT IS FULFILLED IN A SINGLE DAY!
You: Nehemiah rebuilt them, and it took many days, right?
ME: WRONG! FROM YAHWEH’S PERSPECTIVE!
So according to you,
Yahweh HAD TO use the plural “days”, right?
ME: WRONG AGAIN! FROM YAHWEH’S PERSPECTIVE!
Mr. MILK, YAHWEH SPOKE PERFECTLY AS USUAL!
BUT YOU ALSO, AS USUAL, A RATIONAL crammed with WORLDLY WISDOM, NOTHING OF GOD,
IGNORED THE FACT THAT GOD IS GOD and
GOD IS NOT A MAN that he should lie, nor as
THE SON OF MAN, that he should be CHANGED. Hath he said then, and WILL HE NOT DO?
IN ONE SINGLE DAY?
Hath he spoken, and
WILL HE NOT FULFIL?
ALL ON JESUS’ DEATH AND GLORIFICATION.
YOU: Yet He used the singular “day” to refer to the same exact unspecified time periods that He would have also been referring to
had He used the plural “days”.
NOT SO Mike!
THAT IS ONLY YOUR HUMAN CARNAL-MINDED REASONING.
LOOKING AT THINGS ONLY FROM THE PHYSICAL PERSPECTIVE!
WHILE GOD WHO IS SPIRIT LOOKS AT THINGS FROM HIS SPIRIT PERSPECTIVE!
THE FACT THAT FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING IN GOD’S OWN WORK?
His thoughts are not like human thoughts, and neither are His ways like human ways,
NOR HIS DAYS ARE LIKE HUMAN DAYS,
YAHWEH IN JEREMIAH, DID NOT SPEAK OF THE REBUILDING OF THE BOUNDARY WALLS AS SUCH, THOUGH HE DID, BUT HE SPOKE A PROPHECY!
WAIT, WAIT, I JUST REMEMBERED YOU DON’T WANT TO HEAR
NOVELS!
NEITHER YOU WANT ME TO EXPLAIN AND PRODUCE SCRIPTURAL
EXAMPLES!
SO HOW AM I GOING TO FEED YOU WITH SOME
MEAT?
THERE YOU ARE THEN, YOU HAVE TO SUSTAIN YOURSELF ON MILK I ‘M AFRAID!
BUT… I’m going to concede this trivial battle to you,
for the sake of the war.
THE WAR WHICH INCLUDES
That, IN SCRIPTURE, the words CREATED, MADE, FORMED, and ESTABLISHED, MEAN ALWAYS THE SAME EXACT THING?
That THE SIX DAYS OF CREATION ARE MEANT TO BE OF 24-HOUR PERIODS?
That GENESIS 1:1 IS A SUMMARY?
That GENESIS 1:2 IS GOD’S OWN WORK IN TOHU VA BOHU?
BY THE WAY, ON PAGE 92 I ASKED YOU:
FIND A SCRIPTURE THAT MAKES USE OF THE WORDS
TOHU VA BOHU AND IT IS NOT A REFERENCE TO
CONFUSION, CHAOS, WASTE, AND A NEGATIVE STATE OR REFERENCE!
SO, ARE YOU STILL SEARCHING?
Because accepting your assertion means that Yahweh HAD TO use the plural “days” in Ex 20:11 because He actually did make the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them in SIX LITERAL DAYS.
READ MY POST FURTHER UP NUMBERED
#931461
You: So thanks for helping me win the war.
YOU WON NOTHING YET! AND
YOU WILL NEVER DO SO!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike and Berean,
ENJOY:
Tohu va Bohu Signifies Confusion and Void – A Horrible State to Be In
by Sam Kneller | May 10, 2018 | >
Tohu va bohu — without form and void — waste and destruction. God did not create Earth in this state. How did this chaos happen?Tohu va bohu — without form and void — waste and destruction.
God did not create Earth in this state.
How did this chaos happen?
Tohu va Bohu is the Hebrew expression for without form and void. It reminds me of my father, who used to repeatedly exclaim Lampedusa. I had no idea what he was talking about; I thought it was just something he made up, then years later I found out it’s an island, about 200 km south of Sicily, Italy. Like from here to Timbuktu, referring to faraway places, which is a city in the country of Mali. Likewise, tohu va bohu is an idiom often used, not realizing where it comes from or its implication. It is used at the beginning of Genesis and in only two other contexts which follow:
(Origin of the Universe, chapter 7.3)
You can follow along by using the online Bible, the Interlinear Bible, Strong’s Concordance and the Hebrew/Greek Concordance at UnlockBibleMeaning.com
Here are both appearances of the coupled words tohu va bohu, a condition that is akin to the aftermath of a tornado or tsunami. Frightening but real. Many people have already gone through such hell.
Isaiah 34:5, 9-11
5 For my sword (God’s) shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion (tohu), and the stones of emptiness (bohu)Jer 4:17-18, 20, 22-23
17 As keepers of a field, are they (enemies of Jerusalem) against her round about; because she (Jerusalem) has been rebellious against me, says the Lord.
18 Your way and your doings have procured these things unto you; this is your wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reaches unto your heart.
20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, (tohu) and void; (bohu) and the heavens, and they had no light.
Isaiah is referring to God’s judgment of Edom because of their evil behavior. In the other context in Jeremiah, the prophet uses both figurative and literal language to describe the depravity of God’s people as well as the whole earth and reveals the devastating outcome. In both cases, tohu va bohu.H8414
תֹּהוּ tôhûw to’-hoo; from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:
KJV – confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.
H922
בֹּהוּ bôhûw bo’-hoo; from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:KJV – emptiness, void.
Whether the translators use: confusion and emptiness or without form and void, tohu va bohu, we see it’s a downright lousy condition to characterize anyone or anything. And there’s one major cause of this: the malignant mental outlook, or in Biblical terminology, the cesspool spiritual state of the occupants. The five verses of Jeremiah pinpoint the prevailing attitude: rebellion, wickedness, bitterness of heart, destruction, foolishness, sottishness, lack of understanding, evil, a wretched report card.Bible translators rendered TOHU: Confusion, emptiness, without form and void. It’s a downright lousy condition. There’s one major cause: The malignant mental outlook, or in Biblical terminology, the cesspool spiritual state of the…CLICK TO TWEETWhen earth reaches a particular stage of wretchedness, this causes tohu va bohu, in this case, intervention by God or His agents to put an end to this evil, like turning over a new leaf, clearing the rubble to get a fresh start. I don’t want to digress here but remember the meaning of bara–creation (H1254)–we saw it means both make fat and cut down. Sometimes to build and prosper, you have first to cut down and clear away the rubble; this is what is happening in Genesis 1:2 before we see the light of day in verse 3.
As we go through the development of God’s plan, we’ll see this phenomenon of the downward spiral into confusion, followed by the turmoil of destruction, which gives way to a new dawning of light. This pattern happens over and over again. We’ll be dwelling on this point, and we’ll plot just a few of these ups and downs. You can do a personal study of this point.
As we have seen, the original creation was majestic and magnificent, and now we see, for some unmentioned reason here, that same earth has become unsightly and ugly. Notice this easy-to-understand verse that clearly states why God created the Earth and, by implication, its pristine state before one of these downward slides from splendor to tohu va bohu stupor.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not in vain, (H8414 – tohu) he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
Decidedly, at the outset, the earth was not in tohu va bohu in the least. It became this way.I’m insisting on this point because it is something most people have never heard. Yet, it is fundamental to the comprehension that science and the Bible are not at loggerheads concerning the length of universal existence. It all fits together, and each tiny fragment of information has its part to play. We’ll be discussing some of the events that took place on Earth during the 4.5 billion years of its existence–of which humankind’s presence is but a minuscule sliver of this time.
Tohu and bohu are not natural phenomena. They are neither the way God creates anything nor the state God wants to see them in. He is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) but beauty and peace. So if God is not at the origin of this stinking mess, who is?
Tohu and Bohu are not ‘natural phenomenon.’ God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33), but beauty and peace. So if God is not at the origin of this stinking mess, who is?CLICK TO TWEET
Isaiah 24:5-10
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore has the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
7 The new wine mourns, the vine languishes, all the merryhearted do sigh.
8 The mirth of tabrets cease, the noise of them that rejoice ends, the joy of the harp ceases.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
10 The city of confusion (H8414) is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
Not a pretty picture, granted, but we have to call a dime a dime. Let’s not be the proverbial ostrich. There is a penalty to pay for changing and breaking laws (verse 5). What law existed and who transgressed the law in Genesis 1:2, leading to the tohu va bohu that engulfed the earth?This blog post is an excerpt from chapter 7.3 of the book Origin of the Universe
Further Bible Study
It’s time to see these contexts for yourselves in the Bible and read and verify what it says. Use UnlockBibleMeaning.com and navigate to Isaiah 34:5, 9, 11 and Jeremiah 4:17-18 and the other verses in the blog postLook at Isaiah 45:18 “…He created it not in vain…” (H8414). Find this verse in Strong’s and display all the verses with this Biblical Hebrew word tohu. Read the approximate 18 verses, See how H8414 is translated using: confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.
Here’s the exercise. Tell the story of tohu: There’s enough information just in the translations to tell us what the CAUSE of tohu is. What happens when tohu exists. What is the result of tohu va bohu?
There’s no need for commentaries, interpretations, theories. The meanings–via the various translations–tell an incredible story. Understand just this one word helps us comprehend the entire Bible narrative. If you don’t see it, that’s fine, A bit of patience and we’ll get into much more detail.
In reading these verses about tohu va bohu, some might think that God is responsible for this waste and emptiness. Carefully read Jeremiah 4:18. It very specifically tells us what the cause of tohu is, and it is not God.
Carmel……I deffenitly believe the earth “came to be”, tohu and bohu, void and corupted, the key word in Gen 1:2, is the word “was” that word means it “came to be” that, Meanning of course it wasen’t that way before, it came to be tohu and bohu.
The language in Gen 1: 1-2, certanly lends itself to a prexisting earth that ” came to be”, tohu and bohu, before God’s spirit moved over the water covering the earth and refasioned it, all over again, SCIENCE ALSO BACKS, this up, the earth shows signs by fossils that there were several earth flooding in the past destorying various forms of different creatures that then existed but now are extinct. The earth and the universe are millions if not billions of years old, no scripture that i know of denies that, as far as i know AT LEAST.
Peace and love to you and yours Carmel……..gene
Carmel wrote…
You answered: “NOT PRECISELY”, and then tried to go down yet another irrelevant tangent about how it means something different when heaven is mentioned before earth than it means when earth is mentioned before heaven. No more tangents until you elaborate on your “NOT PRECISELY” answer.
Why exactly DOESN’T the following detailed account include details about two different worlds – if Gen 2:4 is a summary statement about two different worlds?
Carmel: So when God refers to “days,” does he want us to mentally substitute the word “eons” or “ages”? No.
Does he want us to think of precise units of time, marked by 24 exact hours as the earth makes a rotation on its axis? No.
Does he want us to think of the Hebrew workday? Yes, AS YOU SAID,
BUT in an analogical and anthropomorphic sense. Just as the “seventh day” makes us think of an ordinary calendar day
(even though it isn’t technically a 24-hour period),
so the other “six days” are meant to be read in the same way.NO?
Okay, I clearly see your CLAIMS. Now show me the scriptural support. Show me one instance in the scriptures where the plural word “days” refers to anything other than a literal 24-hour day (or the 12-hour daylight portion of a literal 24-hour day).
Ready, set, GO!
Carmel: According to Google fight,
back in the days seems more popular:
1,800,000,000 against 584,000,000.
OK, Mike “back in the days” is more popular by THREE TIMES AS MUCH!
I see 584 MILLION votes for “back in the day”, Carmel. So your claim that Jesus (or whoever) MUST use “days” instead of “day” is baseless. The fact that more people prefer the plural “days” doesn’t equate to “the plural days MUST be used and is the ONLY option”.
You do understand this simple concept, right? Bottom line, Jesus could have used “in Noah’s days” or “in Noah’s day”. Both refer to a general time period.
Good chat.
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