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Hi Mike,
You: Funny you should bring this up, since I just addressed it to Proclaimer in our private thread a couple of hours ago…
You: We do it the same way today. You can say “back in the day of my grandmother”, in which case the singular “day” is not a literal day, but a general time period. But you could also say, “back in the days of my grandmother”, in which case it is still a general time period, but the plural “days” refers to a bunch of literal days throughout that general time period.
For a start!
According to Google fight, back in the days seems more popular: 1,800,000,000 against 584,000,000.
You: There are two ways the idiom is used.
Me: Mike WHAT DETERMINES THE PROPER IDIOM?
THE CONTEXT! NO?
You: For example, Jesus also speaks of the events “back in the days (plural) of Noah”. (Matt 24:37, etc) We know from the plural “days” that they are literal days, but we don’t know how many of them.
But Jesus could have also used the singular “day”(back in the day of Noah) to make his point.
ME: We will see that further down Mike!
If he had used the singular,
then we’d know from context
ME: THAT’S RIGHT!
that the “day” was a general time period, and not a literal day. But since he used the plural “days”, we know it is a general time period made up of a bunch of literal days.
OK, let’s read THIS PARTICULAR SCRIPTURE:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.
IN THE ABOVE JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAYS! SINCE IT OCCURS ON A PARTICULAR DAY! RIGHT?
NOW BEFORE WE READ VERSE 37, LET’S READ
WHAT WAS JESUS’ POINT.
Genesis 6:5 And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil
AT ALL TIMES,…….
…….And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart,7He said:
I WILL DESTROY MAN,….
NOW TO
37And as in the days of Noe,
IN THE ABOVE JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAY, SINCE HE WAS REFERRING TO THE
“FILTHY DAYS THEY LIVED”
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (IN THE FILTHY DAYS WHEN HE COMES)
CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:
38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
IN THE ABOVE JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAY, AGAIN REFERRING TO
THE FILTHY DAYS AT ALL TIMES!
EVEN till that day in which Noe entered into the ark,
HERE JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAYS, SINCE JESUS WAS REFERRING TO THE PARTICULAR DAY NOE ENTERED THE ARK.
Mike, Jesus was NEVER in the position to use either or, since the context prevented him!
NOW LET’S SEE HEREUNDER ANOTHER SCRIPTURE SIMILAR TO MATTHEW ABOVE, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RESPECT
TO JESUS’ MESSAGE!
22 And he said to his disciples:
The days will come,
IN THE ABOVE JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAY, WITH RESPECT TO THE NEXT PART OF JESUS STATEMENT HEREUNDER!
when you shall desire to see
one day of the Son of man; and you shall not see it. 23And they will say to you: See here, and see there. Go ye not after, nor follow them: 24For as the lightening that lighteneth from under heaven, shineth unto the parts that are under heaven, so shall the Son of man be
in his day. 25But first he must suffer many things, and be rejected by this generation.
IN THE ABOVE AGAIN JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAYS, SINCE HE WAS REFERRING TO
HIS PARTICULAR GLORIOUS DAY ON THE CROSS WHEN HE DIED AND GLORIFIED IN ONE INSTANT, John13:31-32, John17:1.
26And as it came to pass
in the days of Noe, so shall it be also
in the days of the Son of man.
AGAIN IN THE ABOVE JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAY, IN BOTH, AS HE WAS REFERRING TO HIS FORTY GLORIOUS DAYS AFTER HE RESURRECTED, WHERE GOVERNED EARTH IN GOD’S OWN WILL, AND GOD’S KINGDOM ON EARTH TILL PENTECOST!
27They did eat and drink, they married wives, and were given in marriage, until
the day that Noe entered into the ark: and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28Likewise as it came to pass,
AGAIN A PARTICULAR DAY, SO JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAYS!
in the days of Lot: they did eat and drink, they bought and sold, they planted and built.
THE SAME ABOVE, A CLEAR REFERENCE TO THE FILTHY DAYS IN THE TIME OF LOT, SO HE COULD NOT SAY DAY!
29And in the day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be
AGAIN A PARTICULAR DAY, JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAYS!
in the day when the Son of man shall be revealed.
IN THE ABOVE LIKE ALL THE REST, JESUS COULD NOT SAY DAYS, SINCE HE REFERRED TO A PARTICULAR DAY ON HIS GLORIFICATION, ON THE CROSS, WHEN HE WAS REVEALED, IN THE SPIRITUAL REALMS IN HEAVEN, ON EARTH, AND UNDER THE EARTH AS
THE TRUTH!
BY WHICH TRUTH
IN HIMSELF ETERNAL LIFE, HE PROCLAIMED
GOD THE FATHER THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST! John 17:1,3
1 John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the TRUE God,
and may be in his TRUE Son.
This is the true God and life eternal.
Mike from the above it is emphatically clear that Jesus had no option at all and used the word DAY
WITH RESPECT TO THE CONTEXT!
THOUGH YOUR ARGUMENT IN OUR DAYS SEEMS WRIGHT, IT IS STILL DEBUNKED
UNLESS YOU PROVE IT WITHIN THE SCRIPTURE.
SO NOW IT IS YOUR JOB TO FIND AT LEAST
ONE PARTICULAR VERSE, NOT ON ITS OWN, BUT WITHIN THE ENTIRE CONTEXT, WHERE THE WORD DAY COULD ALSO BE USED IN THE PLURAL AS
DAYS!
NOW TO
GENESIS 2:4These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created,
IN THE DAY
that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:
THIS SCRIPTURE IS A PARTICULAR SCRIPTURE WHERE IT IS REFERRING TO
GOD’S OWN WORK ACCOMPLISHED ON
GOD’S OWN WORKING DAYS!!!!
Isaiah:55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts:
nor your ways (DAYS) my ways,(DAYS) saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,
so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
2 Peter 3:5But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved,
that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years,
and a thousand years as one day.
Genesis 2:2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: (PHYSICALLY) and
he rested
Mike, DO YOU ACCEPT THAT IN ACTUAL FACT GOD WAS EXHAUSTED AND RESTED?
OR DID HE REST TO OFFER US IMAGE-BEARERS A MODEL CYCLE OF WORK AND REST?
Our days are like God’s workdays,
BUT FOR SURE NOT IDENTICAL.
IN THE SIX-DAY CREATION, HOW LONG WERE GOD’S WORKING DAYS?
THE BIBLE DOESN’T MENTION IT.
WHY SHOULD WE INSIST THAT THEY ARE ONLY
24-HOUR DAYS?
You: I don’t think
anyone here takes the nonsense Carmel posts seriously.
I personally believe he is mentally deranged.
I just grab snippets of the stuff he claims when it’s easy to show a quick scripture that refutes his claim.
POOR MIKE!
STILL, I RESPECT YOUR MENTALITY!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike,
I just read this post of yours:
LU: The book of John claims that Jesus was _______…
Mike: A god who was with THE God in the beginning.LU: The book of Hebrews claims that Jesus was _______…
Mike: A god whose own God set him above his peers.Mike, in your understanding, is Jesus a god whose name you can invoke, a god whom you bow down to, a god whom you follow, a god whom you serve, a god who gives eternal life, a god who made all things in heaven and on earth, a god who now has all authority in heaven and on earth, a god whom you can pray to, a god who you must believe in in order to receive eternal life, a god who is the Lord of lords, a god who is the only begotten god, a god who reigns at the right hand of his father eternally?
What do you say, Mike?
Proclaimer,
Thanks for your reply here:
Usually builders build and designers and architects design. The Father created all things and I would think he designed the cosmos too. All things were created THROUGH AND FOR The Word / The Son.
Do you think that the designer of the home takes an active part of the creation of the home even though they might have never been to the job site?
Hi Adam,
Wonderful answer and verses to support your answer.
You said:
Yes sis Kathi the NT writers certainly gave much importance to Jesus the First Century Jew. As per these writers this Jesus was involved in God’s creation and the following are the few such verses;
John 1:1-4, 10
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
1 Cor 8:66 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Col 1:15-1715 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Heb 1:1-41 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Eph 3:99 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
2 Cor 5:17-1817 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
Rev 3:1414 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
The following is the climax of the New Testament on Jesus….Rev 21:22-23
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
Amen! I’m glad that you realize that the NT has a high Christology, exalting Jesus to the level of One who was actively involved in the creation of the heavens and the earth. Not many here who claim Jesus to be the Messiah and who accept the NT as the truth can see that. HN would be a very different place if those who say they believe in the NT actually knew that it said what you understand it to say. It must be perplexing to you to see others not admit that the Jesus of the NT is considered a co-person and co-creator with God.
Hi Gene,
WELL SPECIFICALLY SAID!
Somehow you just anticipated me!
NEVERTHELESS
MIKE, APART FROM BEING A STUBBORN PERSON HE IS DEFINITELY NOT ONLY BLIND, BUT HE PUTS GOD IN THE SAME BASKET AS MORTAL HUMANS.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Gene,
Just to make you aware of what I said to Berean regarding the word “WAS” back in page 87, read hereunder, please.
Berean: According to the King James Bible
which is the best bible,
the earth was “shapeless” (tohu) and empty, desert (bohu)
formless from what I understand would most certainly mean flat, I mean formless, ie “without hill” or “mountain” visible.do I make myself understood?
Me: the earth was “shapeless” (tohu) and empty, desert (bohu)
MORE THAN YOU YOURSELF UNDERSTOOD SCRIPTURE!
JUST READ THE ABOVE VERSE PLEASE AND REFLECT!
YOU ARE SAYING THAT IN GENESIS 1:2
THE EARTH WAS TOHU AND BOHU!
THE WORD “WAS” SAYS IT ALL!
ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT GOD, WHO COULD PRONOUNCE HIS WORD AND IMMEDIATELY CREATE ALL PERFECT, INITIATED HIS WORK IN A STATE OF TOHU AND BOHU?
ALSO, HOW DID THIS EARTH BECOME SO? OBVIOUS BECAUSE IT PRE-EXISTED BEFORE GENESIS 1:3
IT SAYS THE EARTH WAS! NO?
NOT CREATED BY GOD!
IN GENESIS 1:2 GOD IS NOT THERE AT ALL, NEVER MIND SAYING SOMETHING,
Yes, Gene, you did a good job, I wouldn’t have explained it better for sure.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel
THE TOHUW BOHUW IS ONLY THE FIRST STEP IN THE CREATION OF THE EARTH AND THE HEAVENS…
NOTHING NEGATIVE IN IT, THE PROOF IS THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED ON THE SURFACE OF THE WATERS.
…FOR WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS FREEDOM.
AMEN!Hi Berean,
You: THE TOHUW BOHUW IS ONLY THE FIRST STEP IN THE CREATION OF THE EARTH AND THE HEAVENS…
Me: SCRIPTURE NEVER SAY SUCH THING!
IT IS ONLY YOUR ASSUMPTION.
GOD IS NOT THERE AS SUCH, HE IS ABSENT,
THE FACT THAT GOD SENT HIS SPIRIT!
NOW GOD HAS SEVEN SPIRITS!
WHICH ONE OF THESE SPIRITS WAS?
JESUS IS “THE WORD” OF GOD AND THE WORD OF GOD IS A SPIRIT OF GOD!
READ:
John6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth:
the flesh profiteth nothing.
The words that I have spoken to you,
are spirit and life.
Genesis 1:2 is not the very first step of the creation,
I AM MORE THAN SURE!
For the simple reason, that scripture MADE IT CLEAR!
I ALREADY MENTIONED IT TO YOU BUT YOU EITHER NEVER READ IT OR YOU SIMPLY IGNORED IT!
Read:
All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
THAT HIM Berean, is Jesus, the actual GENUINE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER! HEBREW 1:3
AND IF ACCORDING TO YOU, WHICH IS NOT RIGHT, GENESIS 1:2 IS THE VERY FIRST STEP OF THE CREATION IT IS DEFINITELY DONE BY
“THE WORD” JESUS!
DO YOU AGREE!
YES OR NO AND WHY?
NOW I ALSO MENTIONED TO YOU THAT JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF ALL BEGINNINGS OF GOD’S WORK, SINCE ALL BY/IN HIM.
AND ONE MORE THING I MADE CLEAR TO YOU IS, THAT JESUS IS ALSO
THE LIGHT.
THUS IF JESUS IS BOTH
THE BEGINNING OF ALL GOD’S WORK AND ALSO
THE LIGHT FROM LIGHT!
THE VERY FIRST ACT OF CREATION IS DEFINITELY
BY JESUS IN
GENESIS 1:3 READ AND ACCEPT THE TRUTH FOR GOD’S SAKE!
And God said: Be light made. And light was made.
THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR DIRECT FIRST ACT BY GOD Mr. BEREAN! IN RELATION TO OUR SUPPOSED SIX-DAY CREATION.
GOD FOR A REASON WHICH FOR ME IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, WAS ABSENT IN GENESIS 1:2 AND THE WORK UNDER THE NAME
BOHU AND TOHU IS NOT BY HIM DIRECTLY, THE FACT THAT
HIS SPIRIT ONLY IS MOVING OVER THE WATERS!
SIMPLY TO MAKE US AWARE THAT GOD IS IN FULL CONTROL OF THE SITUATION, PRECISELY BY
“THE WORD” MANIFESTED PHYSICALLY BY JESUS WALKING OVER THE SEA, THEN THE DEVIL’S POWER! THE FACT THAT HE FLOODED THE FIRST EARTH AND
UNFORTUNATELY, PUT IT
UNDER THE WATER! JOB 38:8-11, PSALM 18:6-19,
2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were
OF OLD.
and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
I TOLD YOU TO FIND ME A SCRIPTURE WHERE THESE TWO WORDS ARE MENTIONED AND IT IS NOT A REFERENCE TO A CONFUSION, A CHAOS, OR A NEGATIVE TASK!
THE LIGHT MENTIONED ABOVE IN GENESIS 1:3 IS NOT PHYSICAL,
BUT SPIRITUAL!
4And God saw the light that it was good;
CAN YOU SEE THE TRUTH, FOR A CHANGE?
GENESIS 1:2 MENTIONS THE DARKNESS, WHICH OCCURRED SOMETIME BEFORE GENESIS 1:2 THE FACT THAT IT SAYS CLEARLY
AND THE EARTH WAS! ALREADY IN THE MESS! IT DIDN’T OCCUR IN GENESIS 1:2!
and he divided the light from the darkness.
GOT IT Berean:
GOD HIS FIRST ACT OF CREATION WAS WHEN HE DIVIDED/SEPARATED THE SPIRITUAL LIGHT, GOD’S “WORD” FROM WITHIN THE SPIRITUAL DARKNESS, SATAN’S WORK OF REBELLION!
PINPOINTED OUT ALSO IN
GENESIS 3:15 I will put enmities( “THE WORD” MENTIONED ALSO IN HEBREWS 4:12 FURTHER DOWN) BETWEEN thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed:
5 And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.
GOD SPIRITUALLY, SINCE FOR GOD FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, AND HIS SPIRIT “THE WORD” GIVES LIFE TO ALL OF HIS WORK, SIMPLY CALLED HIS WORK BY “THE WORD” JESUS, THE LIGHT, AND SATAN’S WORK OF REBELLION DARKNESS!
MANIFESTED PHYSICALLY IN OUR CREATION!
TO BE CLEAR:
GOD ALL-KNOWING, BY “THE WORD” JESUS AS THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS ENTIRE WORK! ETERNAL LIFE, AS HIS FIRST ACT SEPARATED
SATAN’S SPIRITUAL WORK, PHYSICALLY AS DARKNESS, FROM HIS WORK, PHYSICALLY AS LIGHT, IN ORDER TO START OUR PHYSICAL CREATION, ATTENTION PLEASE:
FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME!
UNDER THE SUN
BY JESUS, MANIFESTED PHYSICALLY IN
THE ACTUAL SUN.
THE FACT THAT GOD CREATED ALL BY JESUS!
HEBREWS 1:2
THE SUN NEVER EXISTED YET BEFORE AS SUCH!
READ Rev. 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven:
A woman clothed with the sun,…..
DO YOU GET THE MESSAGE?
NOW READ ALSO:
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword;
and reaching unto THE DIVISION of the soul and the spirit,
of the joints also and the marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature invisible in
his sight: (JESUS’ SIGHT)
but all things are naked and open to his eyes, (JESUS’ EYES) to whom our speech is.
OK BEREAN? I REPEAT:
GOD IN GENESIS 1:3 COMMENCED HIS WORK WHEN HE DIVIDED/SEPERATED
THE WORK OF GOD OF LIGHT FROM
SATAN’S WORK OF DARKNESS AND NOW READ PLEASE AND DISCERN THE TRUTH:
John1:5 And the light (JESUS) shineth in darkness,
and the darkness (SATAN) did not comprehend it.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
CARMEL
The God of the Bible, the one true God does not have many SPIRITS. The entire Bible speaks of THE SPIRIT OF GOD OR THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A LITERAL WAY, EXCEPT IN CERTAIN CASES, SUCH AS IN REVELATION, WHERE IT IS SPEAKING OF THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD IN A SYMBOLICAL WAY.
OTHER POINT:
YOU SAY THE LIGHT (verse 3). IS “SPIRITUAL”I believe you are OUT OF CONTEXT CARMEL
Isaiah 45:7
👇
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Of course the word “light” IS ALSO USED TO EXPRESS SPIRITUAL THINGS.
ANOTHER THING, TO SAY GOD WAS ABSENT WHEN HE CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH IS HUGE ABSURDITY….
Not only was He(GOD) present, but HE WAS WITH HIS SON(John 1:1)
I MAINTAIN GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND EARTH IN SIX DAYS AND RESTED ON THE SEVENTH.(as we must also)
👇
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
[10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
[11] For IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, and all that in them is, and RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.Bearean…….Jesus said, ” the Sabbath was made for man, “NOT”, man for the Sabbath.
Jesus said, the son of man is “ALSO” , like we are, Lord of the Sabbath “, why because the Sabbath was made for mankind, and Jesus was also a son of mankind, exactly as we are.
Jesus also said, “the father works on the Sabbath, and so do I”. Here Jesus admits to working on the Sabbath day. Had you been there at that time you would have, like all the others there, condemned him and his deciples for working on the Sabbath day.s.
The Sabbath is simple a good thing God made for mankind , we should all work a period of time ‘six days’ and the rest a day, it gives us all a time to regenerate and enjoy life more. But there are time when things come up which require you to break it, But if you become as those hypocritical Pharisee’s were condemning those who don’t keep it , and using the Sabbath as a cloke of rightousness then your no better then they were Berean.
There are “only” three thing, God requires of us all, here it is Berean
Micah 6:8…….“He has showed you , O man , what is good; and what does the LORD REQUIRE of you, but to “DO JUSTLY”, and to “LOVE MERCY” ; and to “WALK HUMBLY” with your God.”
You could throw the whole bible away and just “DO” those three things, and you will be right with God? That is exactly how Father Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, lived. They had no written scriptures in their day, but they knew how to please the LORD, their God, and it was just like Micah 6:8 says.
That’s it Berean, all the rest is just flack, a show of “sel-frightiousness”, IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours Berean. ……..gene
Gene
You are absolutely not master of the Sabbath, Jesus him the creator by the grace of God IS THE MASTER OF THE SABBATH and ONLY HE CAN GIVE REST TO THE SPIRIT OF THE SOUL AND OF THE BODY.
Mike: And when the house is done, who will be credited with its creation? Who exactly will be the house’s creator?
LU: …if one person did the design, provided the materials, did all the physical labor, and owned it all…then one person would get all the credit.
Just like there is only one person who is called our Creator in scripture, right? You yourself just inadvertently pointed that out…
Mike: When [Hebrews 1:2] says “HE made the world”, who is the He?
LU: The “He” is the Father. The Father made the world through his Son.
Who made the world? Repeat your answer to yourself over and over until it sinks in. “The Father made the world… The Father made the world…”
LU: This passage credits two persons, not just one:
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
As Tertullian brilliantly pointed out: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
The Bible doesn’t list individual architects, designers, builders, subcontractors, etc, as per your example. So as you said…
LU: Now, if there were two or three persons who did all of the above, then the credit would go to each of them together, not just one of them… See how that works?
So if two people created our world, then we would have Creators, not a singular Creator, right? The Father and the Son would be our Creators (plural). In which scripture can I read that we have two Creators, Kathi?
Perhaps it’d help if you answered the second part of my question… When your house is finished, who will be its CREATOR?
Mike: For those who haven’t been following along, Proclaimer has gotten himself into some real trouble on our private thread. Every single argument he has made has been thoroughly and scripturally debunked by me. And now he is unable to reasonably answer my “Must Answer” questions, and is stalling with irrelevant pontification. Here are the questions he is supposed to answer before posting a single thing anywhere on HN…
Proclaimer: Yes please. Read it. You might see what he cannot. Then point it out to him on this thread. Good luck.
And another week goes by, with Proclaimer posting all over HN, yet my “Must Answer” questions remain unanswered. He is not only breaking his own rules, but “Proclaiming” to everyone that he has indeed been brought to his knees – just like I forewarned months ago.
He has until tomorrow to directly and reasonably answer the two “Must Answer” questions waiting for him and ask one of his own. If he doesn’t do that, I can ask a third “Must Answer” question that he is supposed to – by his own rules – answer before he posts anything else on HN.
Let’s see if Proclaimer is an honorable man who follows his own HN rules.
Gene: Mike even the word (was) in English does not mean it “always” existed that way. Example,
The car “was” red doesn’t mean it “now” is red. But at one time it became or came to be red.
Nobody is claiming that “was” means “always existed that way”, Gene. Let’s use your car example…
In 2002, Fred created a car. Now the car was formless and void. Then Fred welded the frame together on day one. Then Fred installed the engine on day two. Then Fred attached the body on day three. Then Fred painted the car red on day four. Etc, etc, etc…
Now Gene, be honest here… is there anything in the story above that would make you think the car had already existed and then been destroyed, and Fred was RECREATING it?
Is there anything in the story to suggest that the car was “always” red?
Carmel:(1) DID YOU CREATE YOUR SON? AND HOW?
(2) DID YOU FORM YOUR SON? AND HOW?
(3) DID YOU MAKE YOUR SON? AND HOW?
(4) DID YOU ESTABLISH YOUR SON? AND HOW(1) Yes, through the act of procreation.
(2) Yes, through the act of procreation.
(3) Yes, through the act of procreation.
(4) Yes, through the act of procreation.
Carmel, I gave you actual mainstream EVIDENCE that all four words are synonyms, right? You didn’t REFUTE that evidence, did you? The fact is that the entire world knows that they are different ways of saying the same thing. YOU, for personal reasons, want to PRETEND that each word refers to something different. But YOU are wrong – and I showed it to you from a mainstream worldwide thesaurus, right? Now let me show it to you (AGAIN) from scripture…
Deut 32:6 NIV… Is this the way you repay the LORD, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
Deut 32:6 English Standard Version… Do you thus repay the LORD, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?
God “fathered” us. He “created” us. He “made” us. He “formed” us. He “established” us.
These are not 5 different things God did to us, Carmel. They are 5 different ways to express the ONE thing He did to us.
Wise up. And in the future, don’t just spout off even more nonsense without DIRECTLY ADDRESSING the evidence I provided in my previous response, okay. Next time REFUTE the evidence directly first – and THEN spout off about your other misconceptions. Thanks.
Carmel: Genesis 1:11 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 2And the earth was void and empty,
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth
when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. 5And no plant of the field was yet in the earth…Genesis 5:1 1This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God. 2He created them male and female; and blessed them: and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
WHICH AND IN WHAT WAY THE OTHER TWO INTRODUCTIONS ARE EXACTLY PARALLEL AND IDENTICAL TO GENESIS 1:1
They all begin with an introduction to the process which follows… in which we are given more details.
Notice that the introductory statement for all three of them uses the past tense “created/made”. You apparently take that to me that the heaven and earth were COMPLETE. This is the entire argument that you, Gene, and Proclaimer keep making about Gen 1:1, right… that it means the heaven and earth were ALREADY COMPLETED, and then the following verses contain things that God did at another time, which have nothing to do with the original ALREADY COMPLETED heaven and earth from Gen 1:1, right?
So now look at Gen 2:5. Notice that although the heaven and earth are said to have been “made” and “created” (past tense synonyms that mean the same damn thing!), there were no plants of the field yet. But plants of the field ARE a part of “heaven and earth”, right? So how could the earth have been complete when there were no plants of the field?
It’s the same with Gen 1:1. Your argument is that the past tense “created” in 1:1 means the entire heaven and earth and EVERYTHING IN THEM were already complete before 1:2 even begins. You guys argue that 1:1 means there was already a “vast cosmos” filled with stars and planets and whatever – just because of the past tense “created”.
But as I keep pointing out to Proclaimer, assuming that the creation of heaven automatically includes EVERYTHING CURRENTLY IN heaven is akin to assuming that the creation of the earth automatically includes EVERYTHING CURRENTLY IN the earth.
So if you’re going to argue that “God created (past tense) the heaven” means that stars already existed at that point, then you also have to argue that “God created the earth” (also in Gen 1:1) means that dry land, animals, vegetation, and even Adam and Eve already existed at that point too.
Of course we don’t even have to wonder about it, because Moses kindly followed his introductory statement, and the entire process that it introduced, with an ENDING statement in Gen 2:1-2… Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing…
Gen 1:1… Statement to introduce the detailed process which follows.
Gen 1:2-31… The detailed process.
Gen 2:1-2… Ending statement to clarify that all the things discussed in the detailed process were now completed in their entirety – and to clarify that the detailed process took six days.
Likewise…
Gen 2:1… Statement to introduce a more detailed process which follows.
Gen 2:2-24… Detailed process of the creation of the garden and mankind.
Gen 2:25… Ending statement clarifying the final state of the humans and the garden after the detailed process was complete.
Likewise…
Gen 5:1-2… Statement to introduce a more detailed account of the early generations of mankind.
Gen 5:3-32… Detailed account of the early generations of mankind.
No ending statement concluding the account of the first 10 generations of mankind.
So Carmel, that was a lot of info for you, but I’m only interested in seeing your direct and honest answer to two things…
1. Can you see that all three introductory statements use the past tense “created” – even though the more detailed account mentions the ACTUAL creation of these things that were said in the introductory statement to have been created?
2. Can you see in two of your comparison scriptures (Gen 2:4 and 5:1), the word “created” and “made” are both used interchangeably with the SAME DAMN MEANING – as opposed to meaning that God did two completely different things?
Gene: Mike…..Are we clear on the English word (WAS) yet? As meaning coming to (be) or exist a certain way, but not nessarely meaning that it “always”, was that way? Can you allow your mind to even consider that possibility IN Genesis 1v2 ?
I am sorry for some of my post being a little scrambled at times, my tab adds letters some times even words and I fail to catch it at times , I am going to try to turn my spell check off on this tablet. Maybe that will help. Not to mention I am pretty old, 81 in June.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike. ……….gene
Gene, that is the most comprehendible post you’ve made in years. It seems that turning off the spell check did wonders.
As for the question in the first paragraph, I addressed it in a previous post, and await your direct answers to the questions posed therein.
Adam: It is quite thrilling to read your replies to the posts of all our dear brothers and sister who are in this HN. But please avoid your haughtiness based on your vast Biblical knowledge.
Perhaps what you see as haughtiness is really annoyance because nobody on HN seems to want to stand and defend their beliefs when they are scrutinized. They just ignore the rebuttals, only to post the same crap at a later time in a different thread.
For example, I questioned your claim that Deut 32:8-9 teaches that Yahweh is an inferior local tribal god who takes his marching orders from the Canaanite god El, right? And then you come back a couple of weeks later scolding me in two different posts for my behavior, but haven’t yet addressed my Deut 32:8-9 response to you.
And then to add injury to insult, you post a bunch of scriptures saying that God created THROUGH Jesus, and make the vague statement that “Jesus was involved in God’s creation” – as if it supports Kathi’s beliefs in a “Yahweh Unity” made up of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit (ie: the original Trinity Godhead that she tries to camouflage as her own independent doctrine).
And you post this even after agreeing with me earlier on this Gen 1:26 (“Let us make man in our image”) commentary from the Trinitarian scholars of the NET Bible…
In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27).
And I noticed that you didn’t include Proverbs 8:22-31 in your list of verses, where Jesus tells us that his “involvement” was watching GOD create everything and offering praise and delighting in GOD’S creations.
So Adam, what exactly do you mean that Jesus was “involved” in God’s creation? In what way? What did Jesus do exactly – according to scripture? There is no scripture in the entire Bible that says Jesus created a single thing. There is no scripture that says we have “Creators”, right? And Jesus himself refers to “God’s creation” a number of times in scripture, right?
So am I wrong to get annoyed when I’ve been trying to nail people like Kathi down on these things for over a decade here, but they just keep slipping away without actually getting into the brass tacks of it all?
Feel free to comment on my behavior any time and in any manner you choose. That stuff doesn’t bother me. But please at least ADDRESS my points first.
1. In what way, EXACTLY, was Jesus “involved” in what you call “God’s creation”?
2. In what way does Deut 32:8-9 teach that Yahweh is an inferior tribal god who was given the nation of Israel by the Canaanite god El?
These are claims that YOU made. Please stand and defend those claims against scrutiny – regardless of the “haughtiness” of the one doing the scrutinizing.
Thanks.
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