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Mike,
Thanks for the verses. You asked “Are you suggesting that the Unity of the Father, Son, and Spirit is our “Father”?
I’m suggesting that the Unity of the Father, Son and Spirit contains our “Father” as well as His Son and Their Spirit. The Father is the head of the Unity. Those verses are emphasizing the Father. One verse mentions the work of “your hands” which would likely be the second person of the Unity, imo. Whether the speaker understood YHVH as a unity of more than one person or “power”, it doesn’t say.
I think those writers are clearly identifying the Father who made them, not merely emphasizing Him over someone else. Also, why emphasize the Father when the Son is the one who literally made them? 🤔
But okay, what do you do with scriptures that identify the Son as someone other than the Creator? For example…
Hebrews 1:1-2… On many past occasions… God spoke to our fathers through the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son… through whom He also made the world.
Mike,
Hebrews 1:1-2… On many past occasions… God spoke to our fathers through the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son… through whom He also made the world.
As I read that, the verse identifies the Son as the one through whom the Father made the world. That clearly identifies the Son as making the world under the direction of the Father. It is not identifying the Son as someone other than the creator as you say.
The “He” is the Father. The Father made the world through his Son. Sorta like I am building a house through so and so the house builder.
Sorta like I am building a house through so and so the house builder.
Your not building a house. You are buying one.
For those who haven’t been following along, Proclaimer has gotten himself into some real trouble on our private thread. Every single argument he has made has been thoroughly and scripturally debunked by me. And now he is unable to reasonably answer my “Must Answer” questions, and is stalling with irrelevant pontification. Here are the questions he is supposed to answer before posting a single thing anywhere on HN…
Yes please. Read it. You might see what he cannot. Then point it out to him on this thread. Good luck.
Do you agree that this is just as true according to the NASV1995:
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and the only begotten God, Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
If that is just as true and let’s assume it is, although I cannot vouch for that. Then if you read it as theos as in nature not identity, then I agree.
Mike even the word (was) in English does not mean it “always” existed that way. Example,
The car “was” red doesn’t mean it “now” is red. But at one time it became or came to be red.
The apple was red, or ripe, that dosen’t mean it now is , it just mean at a time it became or came to be those things.
Let’s, let the English definition settle this ok.
“WAS” ……IS the first and third person singular of the (past tense of be )
Mike, like, came to be, or came to exist that way. It never dates the time , it describes a time it (came to be) that way.
Even in English it dose not indicate “the” exact time, but at, “a” time, it came to be existing that way. It never means it all ways existed that way only one time it did exist that way.
Your belief that the earth came into it’s “only” ever existence, during the 6 day creation period is just another assumption on your part. IMO You or no one here has any idea how many time God flooded this earth in the past and regenerated it again, but when his Spirit moved on the waters the earth was definitely existing under the waters , before he created anything that is for sure. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours Mike. ………..gene
Hi Carmel
I don’t doubt heaven or heavens where God the Father, Jesus and the good angels are, but in Genesis 1;2 it is not about heaven of heavens where God the Father is.
Peter in the context does not mean either the heavens where God is (paradise)God bless
Hi Mike,
ME: ANSWER MIKE PLEASE:
In the above description when a human being is CREATED, FORMED, MADE, AND ESTABLISHED,
is it all the same exact thing for you?
YOU: YES OR NO PLEASE!
YES. And not just for me, but for all rational people.ME: Mr. RATIONAL!
LET’S SEE HOW RATIONAL YOU ARE:
PRODUCE THE APPROPRIATE RATIONAL ANSWER FOR THESE
4 DIFFERENT TERMINOLOGY QUESTIONS
(1) DID YOU CREATE YOUR SON? AND HOW?
(2) DID YOU FORM YOUR SON? AND HOW?
(3) DID YOU MAKE YOUR SON? AND HOW?
(4) DID YOU ESTABLISH YOUR SON? AND HOW
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Proclaimer:
You said;
Then if you read it as theos as in nature not identity, then I agree.
Ok, that’s something anyway. I’m sure that you can see that the only begotten theos would not be the same person as the only unbegotten theos, correct?
Can you agree that the only true theos would be the only unbegotten theos?
Can you agree that the only begotten theos would be the only true begotten theos?
Proclaimer:
You said:
Your not building a house. You are buying one.
Wouldn’t you need more information in order to say that?
What if the person buying the house is the lead designer of the home building firm that is physically putting the house together, who (lead designer) not only bought the land, had the vision, drew the plans from their own thoughts, chose all the elements that were going into the structure, even down to the structure type, the hinges, doors and windows, cabinets, floors and lighting, etc. Could that lead designer say that she was building a house through so and so building firm? Would you still say that she is not building a house, she is merely buying one? Do you see the difference?
Hi Mike,
YOU: I like that terminology. Gen 2:4 is an introduction to the process which follows…
just like Gen 1:1 is an introduction to the process which follows.
NOT QUITE I’M AFRAID!
And they are both linked with “the most vital conjunction AND” !
SINCE IT IS A CONJUNCTION, IT IS THE MOST COMMON, BUT FOR SURE
NEITHER IS THE MOST VITAL AND MORE IMPORTANT NOR IN THE SAME TERMINOLOGY, IN ALL CASES, AS IT IS IN GENESIS 1:2 IN COMPARISON TO GENESIS 2:5
NOW NOT TO LET YOU DEVIATE AGAIN THE DISCUSSION, read hereunder are the three DIFFERENT INTRODUCTIONS we are discussing!
Genesis 1:11 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 2And the earth was void and empty,
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth
when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. 5And no plant of the field was yet in the earth…Genesis 5:1 1This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God. 2He created them male and female; and blessed them: and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Now I am not going to say a word, Mike!
WHAT I AM GOING TO DO IS TO LET YOU SAY, IN HOW MANY NOVELS YOU ARE READY TO PRODUCE TO EXPLAIN TO ALL ON HN
WHICH AND IN WHAT WAY THE OTHER TWO INTRODUCTIONS ARE EXACTLY PARALLEL AND IDENTICAL TO
GENESIS 1:1
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
LU: The “He” is the Father. The Father made the world through his Son. Sorta like I am building a house through so and so the house builder.
And when the house is done, who will be credited with its creation? Who exactly will be the house’s creator?
Mike,
I’m around a lot of people building homes near me and there are all sorts of builders. Some people are using an independent builder and some people are using a building company. In either case, it is completely understood that many people were involved in the building of the home, not just the contractor.
If a private opening was given for all who were involved in the building of the home, I would expect the home owners to be hosting the event and inviting the design team/architect, the contractor and those working at the firm for the building company, the subcontractors including the landscape architect and the landscapers and anyone else that took part. Everyone would get credit to some degree at creating the house. It would be misleading for one person to take full credit.
Now, if there were two or three persons who did all of the above, then the credit would go to each of them together, not just one of them. If only one of them was the designer and provided all the supplies and the other one or two persons did all the physical labor then one person would get all the credit for the design and the other two would get all the credit for the physical labor. See how that works?
Furthermore, if one person did the design, provided the materials, did all the physical labor, and owned it all…then one person would get all the credit.
This passage credits two persons, not just one:
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Mike…..Are we clear on the English word (WAS) yet? As meaning coming to (be) or exist a certain way, but not nessarely meaning that it “always”, was that way? Can you allow your mind to even consider that possibility IN Genesis 1v2 ?
I am sorry for some of my post being a little scrambled at times, my tab adds letters some times even words and I fail to catch it at times , I am going to try to turn my spell check off on this tablet. Maybe that will help. Not to mention I am pretty old, 81 in June.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike. ……….gene
Hi Adam, did you answer my last question to you? If so, would you mind showing me your response? Thanks.
Here was my post to you:
It is refreshing that you also see that the NT is declaring Jesus as a “Co-person with God in all activities starting from the first creation and ending with new creation mainly based on the NT”, as you say.
Would you say that the blanks could have also said that Jesus was a Co-Yahweh with God or something similar to that?Be blessed, LU
Hi sis Kathi, thanks for your blessings to me.
(For Mike)…I am doing well brother Mike and I had joined my family available at different station away from my work place for 10 days. It is quite thrilling to read your replies to the posts of all our dear brothers and sister who are in this HN. But please avoid your haughtiness based on your vast Biblical knowledge.
I give respect to each and every one here in this Forum because everyone bases his/her arguments on the same scriptures which you quote here.
Yes sis Kathi the NT writers certainly gave much importance to Jesus the First Century Jew. As per these writers this Jesus was involved in God’s creation and the following are the few such verses;
John 1:1-4, 10
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Col 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Heb 1:1-4
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Eph 3:9
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
2 Cor 5:17-18
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
Rev 3:14
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
The following is the climax of the New Testament on Jesus….
Rev 21:22-23
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
What if the person buying the house is the lead designer of the home building firm that is physically putting the house together, who (lead designer) not only bought the land, had the vision, drew the plans from their own thoughts, chose all the elements that were going into the structure, even down to the structure type, the hinges, doors and windows, cabinets, floors and lighting, etc. Could that lead designer say that she was building a house through so and so building firm? Would you still say that she is not building a house, she is merely buying one? Do you see the difference?
Usually builders build and designers and architects design. The Father created all things and I would think he designed the cosmos too. All things were created THROUGH AND FOR The Word / The Son.
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