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Mike……I would like you to focus on a single word for a change, the word used in Gen 1v2, “And the earth (was) this word came from the Heb word ” (haw-yaw) . Strong H1961
Haw-yaw …….A primitive root meaning, to exist, that is, , (be “OR” become, or came to pass) to be to-hu and bo-hu (meaning empty) ; a vacuity, that is (superficially) an undistinguisable ruin: -emptiness, void.
THIS wording in the Hebrew, does gives cause to believe the earth did prexist before the six day creation started .
What is your appinion on the word “was” Used there , check it out. That word changes the text a lot IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Gene, I read Frank Nelte’s writing, and I understand his claim that “hayah” is better translated as “became” in Gen 1:2 than as “was”. He bases his assessment on the perfect tense of the word. Here is Gen 1:2…
You see on the right that it is the Qal Perfect form of the word, right? Yet all Bibles translate it as “was”, right? Okay, that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. But now look at Gen 3:1…
This is also the Qal Perfect form of the same word, right? Yet what Bible translates it as, “the serpent BECAME more crafty”? It seems to me that “was” is a perfectly fine English translation of the Qal Perfect form of “hayah”.
Here’s Gen 4:2…
Again, it is the same Qal Perfect form of the word, yet every Bible translates it as, “Cain WAS a tiller”, not, “Cain BECAME a tiller”, right?
If you want, I can keep going through the scriptures to check every use of that word to see how it is translated, but aren’t these enough to make it clear to you that “was” is a perfectly fine, reasonable, sensible, and acceptable translation of the Qal Perfect form of “hayah”?
It seems like Nelte is trying to make something out of nothing. Unless he can definitively prove that there is absolutely no way “hayah” could properly be translated as “was” in Gen 1:2 (against thousands of Hebrew scholars who have produced hundreds of Bibles that contain “was”), then it remains only a pipedream of his to go along with his fantasy that Satan led a rebellion in heaven before our current world was created.
Gene, please acknowledge that you have read and understood my post. Please offer any rebuttals or challenges to anything I’ve said in it NOW – so we can discuss it NOW. I’m trying to prevent you from remaining silent on what I’ve just showed you – only for you to bring the SAME THING up in a week or two, as if we never even discussed it.
Here’s a good one, Gene…
Judges 2:15… Whenever Israel went out to fight, the hand of the LORD was against them to defeat them, just as he had sworn to them. They were in great distress.
Notice the word “was”.
Notice that it’s the same Qal Perfect form as Gen 1:2. Yet it is rightly translated as “was”. It wouldn’t make sense to say that the hand of Yahweh “became” against them, right?
And Gene, it isn’t just the Hebrew grammar claim that poses a problem for Nelte. It’s also the fact that if the earth BECAME empty and void, there was a time when it was not empty and void. And God said in Isaiah 45:18 that He did NOT create the earth to be empty, right? So we have two problems with Nelte’s premise:
1. We have an earth filled with animals and men before Satan destroyed it… and not one member survived to tell the tale, nor did God ever tell of the previous earth and its inhabitants who lived before us.
2. It means that Satan, not Yahweh, is the Almighty one – since Satan had the power to completely destroy the world God built, and everything in that world – and Yahweh was powerless to stop him or save His own creation from Satan.
And that doesn’t seem to align with the words of our Lord…
John 10:29… My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
Gene, think on those things, and then ADDRESS this post with your response… so we don’t have to do this same song and dance again at a later time.
For those who haven’t been following along, Proclaimer has gotten himself into some real trouble on our private thread. Every single argument he has made has been thoroughly and scripturally debunked by me. And now he is unable to reasonably answer my “Must Answer” questions, and is stalling with irrelevant pontification. Here are the questions he is supposed to answer before posting a single thing anywhere on HN…
Mike: PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT THE SUN, MOON AND STARS ALREADY EXISTED BEFORE GOD MADE THEM ON DAY FOUR, AND THAT THEY WERE ALREADY A PART OF HEAVEN BEFORE GOD PLACED THEM INTO THE FIRMAMENT OF HEAVEN ON DAY FOUR… OR OPENLY ACNKOWLEDGE THAT NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIMS EXISTS.
He is stumped on this one. He attempted to divert his way out of it, but I won’t let him. Now he is stalling. And here’s the other one he’s stumped on…
Proclaimer: Micah 7:11: ‘The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt.
IN MICAH 7:11, IS THE VERSE TALKING ABOUT A SINGLE 12 OR 24 HOUR DAY? YES OR NO.
Mike: I think it refers to Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem, so NO.
BUT WHAT IF THE MICAH PROPHECY HAD SAID THIS…
IN THE EVENING OF THE FIRST DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, PEOPLE WILL COME TO YOU FROM ASSYRIA, AND BY THE MORNING OF THE SECOND DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, THEY WILL BEGIN TO ARRIVE FROM THE CITIES OF EGYPT.
NOW ARE WE TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS?
I’ve been trying desperately to make Proclaimer understand that there is a big difference between using an idiom like, “back in the DAY of my grandma” – which speaks of an unspecified time period, and historical accounts like, “on the morning of the first day of Lincoln’s presidency, he did X, and on the evening of the second day, he did Y” – which speaks of literal days.
He’s not the sharpest tack in the drawer, so it’s taken a few months so far. (I actually started trying to teach him these things at least 4 years ago! 😳) But I’m confident that he’ll get it eventually. Pray that God give him understanding.
To all
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.Can you agree that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 steps?
If so, you have taken a big step in faith in this Great Creator God.
Can you see that the first stage is itself divided into three parts?
1) verses 1 and 2
2) verse 3
3) verses 4 and 5To be continued
God bless
Mike…… but yes it would make sense to say the hand of God became against Isreal, when you consider it was not alway against Israel right, this show a process had taken place over time. We all know God was not “always” against Israel. Right? So this could also apply to this earth as “becoming” or coming to be, (to-hu and bo-hu ) right? Even in you example of Cain, Cain was not Always a sower of grain, he became a sower of grain, just like I was not alway a Electrical contractor , or Farmer either, I became or came to be one. Right?
I still believe what I am think does fit the over all context of Gen 1 and 2, as the earth being regenerate from a former existiance. In fact that process may have happened many times before , this present earth condition. That is also backed up by arculalogical finds and dating back also Mike. I am just saying the language in Genesis 1&2, does lend itself to that possiblity, and science does support it.
The idea that God created everything that exists in just 6 day is not logical and the original language used does not support it either IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours………..gene
BEREAN……No, in the begining was step one and in that step God created the heavens and the earth, that had nothing to do with a single day or day one, As you falsely assume. Heaven and earth was already in existence when the Spirit of God moved upon the waters, so it could have not been created later right? Common sense 101.
Peace and love to you and yours Berean. ……….gene
How about this one, Gene?
Gen 26:1… And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham.
It’s talking about a famine that WAS in the past. Would you say “the famine that BECAME in the days of Abraham”?
It doesn’t really matter anyway. I’ve already showed you that “was” is the proper translation – which is why all Bibles use “was” in Gen 1:26. I’ve showed you the same Qal Perfect form of “hayah” being properly translated as “was” in many other verses. You can choose to say that in every case, “became” would be better – but I know that you’re only doing it for personal reasons, not scriptural or grammatical ones. Nelte likewise makes his arguments, not because Gen 1:2 CAN’T POSSIBLY be properly translated as “was”… but because he doesn’t WANT 1:2 to be translated that way because it defeats his silly and unscriptural idea.
So let’s move on to the two points that you didn’t address as I asked you to. Here they are again…
1. We have an earth filled with animals and men before Satan destroyed it… and not one member survived to tell the tale, nor did God ever tell of the previous earth and its inhabitants who lived before us.
2. It means that Satan, not Yahweh, is the Almighty one – since Satan had the power to completely destroy the world God built, and everything in that world – and Yahweh was powerless to stop him or save His own creation from Satan.
Please DIRECTLY explain these things to me, Gene.
1. Tell me why none of Yahweh’s creations on the “previous earth” survived Satan’s onslaught.
2. Tell me why the Most High God of gods was POWERLESS to protect His own creations against someone that He Himself created, and who gets his own power FROM Yahweh in the first place.
3. And tell me why we were not told in scripture about this previous earth full of living things that God was powerless to protect against the “Almighty Satan”.
Gene, I’m calling you out here, brother. You need to DIRECTLY ADDRESS all three of these points in order to be taken seriously – instead of as a buffoon who just keeps spouting the same nonsense over and over, but is never able to stand and defend it. Show us that you have what it takes, Gene. I’m anxiously awaiting your explanations.
Gene: Heaven and earth was already in existence when the Spirit of God moved upon the waters, so it could have not been created later right? Common sense 101.
Gene, what exactly were these “waters” that the Spirit of God moved upon? Describe them for us.
As for your second point, it is indeed common sense 101. So let’s reason it out together, shall we?
Gen 1… 6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gene, if the heaven already existed, then why did God CREATE the thing that He Himself named “Heaven” on day two? Common sense 101, right?
Gen 1… 9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth…
And if earth already existed, why did God CREATE the thing that He Himself named “Earth” on day 3?
These are important questions, Gene. How could a thing God created on day 2 have already existed before He created it on day 2? How could a thing God created on day 3 have already existed before He created it on day 3?
Gene, we await your DIRECT and HONEST answers to these things – as opposed to a rambling, incoherent repeat of the same things you’ve already claimed a dozen times, but won’t stand and defend. Thanks.
Mike,
This is what I said:
I believe that the Father gives the vision and the Son does what He has seen in the vision. The Son formed man. All things are made by the only begotten God, apart from the only begotten God, nothing has been made that has been made. John 1:3, even the heavens and the earth ;).
The Father gives the vision, the Son turns the vision into reality. Both are involved. The Father’s vision wasn’t turned into reality apart from the Son, imo.
They each had a role in creation therefore one did not create without the other. You want me to pick one…the one Unity of Yahweh (Father, Son and Spirit) was the creator.
Happy Resurrection Day!
Hi Adam, did you answer my last question to you? If so, would you mind showing me your response? Thanks.
Here was my post to you:
It is refreshing that you also see that the NT is declaring Jesus as a “Co-person with God in all activities starting from the first creation and ending with new creation mainly based on the NT”, as you say.
Would you say that the blanks could have also said that Jesus was a Co-Yahweh with God or something similar to that?Be blessed, LU
Did you address this question, If not here it is again.
Proclaimer, you said: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Do you agree that this is just as true according to the NASV1995:
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and the only begotten God, Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Gene
No, in the begining was step one and in that step God created the heavens and the earth, that had nothing to do with a single day or day one, As you falsely assume.
Me
Gene, YOU ARE ALSO LIKE CARMEL ON VERY DANGEROUS TERRAIN, QUICKSAND OF FABULATION…
YOU STILL HAVE NOT PROVIDED THAT THE BEGINNING OF GENESIS 1:1,2 WAS BEFORE THE FIRST DAY
YOU BUILD ON ASSUMPTIONS….
WHILE YOU ARE DISREGARDING THE WORD OF GOD WHO SAYS US:👉IN EXODUS 20:11👈
FOR IN SIX DAYS the LORD made the HEAVENS, THE EARTH, AND THE SEA , (Gen.1 v.1-5) and all that is contained therein, (v.6-31) and he rested on seventh day (Gen.2:1-3): therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it.YOU READ WELL
IN SIX DAYS GOD MADE
THE HEAVENS, EARTH AND SEA…AND ALL THAT IS CONTAINED THEREIN…AND HE RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY….
THEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY AND SANCTIFIED IT.
Gene,
IF THERE HAD BEEN “A BEFORE” TO THIS, GOD WOULD HAVE TOLD US THROUGH HIS HOLY PROPHETS, DON’T YOU BELIEVE?
LU: The Father gives the vision, the Son turns the vision into reality. Both are involved. The Father’s vision wasn’t turned into reality apart from the Son, imo.
They each had a role in creation therefore one did not create without the other. You want me to pick one…the one Unity of Yahweh (Father, Son and Spirit) was the creator.
Okay… so then let’s work through it to see if it aligns with scripture as a whole. I know you’re busy with school, so I’ll keep it short.
Many scriptures identify “the Father” as our Creator. Are you suggesting that the Unity of the Father, Son, and Spirit is our “Father”?
LU: Hi Adam, did you answer my last question to you?
I haven’t seen anything from Adam in two weeks or more. I pray that he is okay.
Hi Brean,
You: NOW THE WORD “HEAVENS”
8064
Shamayim
dual of an unused singular shameh {shaw-meh’}; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):–air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).
carmel,
There is no reason to believe that the word “heavens” could also refer to the angelic host although I have no doubt that they were present at that time in the creation of the heavens and the earth.ME: Read Berean,
2Peter3:5 For this they are wilfully ignorant of, that THE HEAVENS were before, and the earth out of water, and through water, consisting by the word of God.
the Greek
Strong’s Concordance
ouranos: 3772.
ouranos: heaven
Original Word: οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os’)
Definition: heaven
Usage: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens,(b) the spiritual heavens.
HELPS Word-studies
3772 ouranós – heaven (singular), and nearly as often used in the plural (“heavens”).
“The singular and plural have distinct overtones and
therefore should be distinguished in translation (though unfortunately they rarely are)” (G. Archer).
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike,
You said:
Many scriptures identify “the Father” as our Creator. Are you suggesting that the Unity of the Father, Son, and Spirit is our “Father”?
Can you put up a specific verse or a couple of them that say “Father” specifically.
Deuteronomy 32:6… Is this the way you repay Yahweh, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
Malachi 2:10… Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us?
Isaiah 64:8… Yet you, Yahweh, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hands.
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