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Berean…….If you believe Jesus is God, you are a novice, and haven’t began to understand the truth yet. Jesus is indeed the word of God, that came into being when he was born on this earth exactly as we are , yes he was “the prophesied ” word “FULFILLED”, , but he himself is not God the Father’s word (himself), just as he said he wasen’t, himself God’s word, saying ,
“the words I am telling you are not “MY WORDS”, but the words of him who sent me”. what does that mean to you? WHEN YOU FORCE THE MEANING OF OUR TEXT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THEN WHAT IT IS SAYING , YOU ARE DECIEVEING PEOPLE BEREAN.
My question to you as well as the rest is, do you “truly” believe Jesus himself and what he says? Jesus said , he could do “NOTHING OF HIMSELF”, Jesus said “we could do greater works the he did”. what part of those scriptures you don’t believe? The “man” Jesus is the agent, (servant) of the (principle) God , he is not the principle himself. The (agent) is given power to represent him , but is never the person he represents. Again I say you people do not “TRULY” BELIEVE God the Father , nor do you believe Jesus either, or you would know these things. IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours Berean. ………….gene
Gene
Berean…….If you believe Jesus is God, you are a novice, and haven’t began to understand the truth yet.
I believe in the Word of God.
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.….HE TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT….
HE TOOK UPON HIM(who was in the form of God)👉THE FORME OF A SERVANT….
LU: The Father created and acted upon creation through Jesus…
The Son formed man. All things are made by the only begotten God…
These are contradictory statements. Either the Father created man or the Son did. Which ONE of them did it? (Pick only ONE of them as the “Creator”, please.)
Mike: And yes, many scriptures say God (as in the Father) created all things THROUGH Jesus. (John 1:3, Heb 1:2, Col 1:16)
LU: I agree.
This just confuses matters all the more. Because if THE FATHER created all things through the Son, then THE FATHER is the Creator – not the Son.
As even Tertullian (the originator of the term “Trinity” to describe the supposed Godhead) pointed out…
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
You agree to “The Father created all things”, but then state that “all things are made by the [Son]”. You’re speaking out of both sides of your mouth. “He who creates is ONE…” Who is that ONE, Kathi?
Your doctrine, where every member of your religion must pick and choose which Yahweh said or did something every time it says Yahweh/God said or did something in scripture is a doctrine of confusion – which you are making very apparent with your double-speak right here and now.
Mike: There are also many other scriptures that make it clear that God, not Jesus, created all things.
LU: I disagree.
Here’s just one of the many…
Acts 4:24… When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
Kathi, WHO is “God”, to whom they are praying… the one they say created everything?
The last line of the same prayer…
Acts 4:30… Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.
Again, WHO is “God”, to whom they prayed, who created everything, and who has a holy servant named Jesus?
Kathi, who is the one identified as the “God” who “created all things” and has a “holy servant” named Jesus?
Please just DIRECTLY and HONESTLY answer the question. And then tell me again how you “disagree” that there are many scriptures making it clear that the Father is our Creator.
Mike: I find it very hard to believe that from the very beginning of our world, there had always been “Co-Yahwehs”, yet the only human being about whom it was said, “Yahweh would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend” was completely unaware of this “Yahweh Unity”, and believed that the Father alone was his God and Creator.
LU: Since no one has seen the Father (John 1:18), then Moses must have seen the Son as Yahweh, imo. He spoke face to face with the second person of the Yahweh Unity.
The one to whom Moses spoke said this…
Exodus 33:18-23… 18Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”
19And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence… 20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live… I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
Still sound like Jesus to you? Or does it sound like the Father, whom no man can see and live? You know… the one Moses clearly said was our Creator.
And if you agree that Moses was considered a friend of Yahweh, my point remains:
Why on earth would someone who speaks with God as if they are old friends think that God is a single male, that God is the Father alone, and that God is our Creator… when according you that’s not the case?
How could it be that YOU, Kathi, know more about God than a man who spoke to God as a friend and wrote the first five books of the Bible?
Carmel: GENESIS 1:1 IS CLEAR
IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS(FIRST)
AND THE EARTHCarmel, consider the following very carefully…
Gen 1:1… In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT)
Gen 1:2-31… All the things God made, and the order in which they were made, ie:
Light on day 1.
Heaven on day 2.
Earth and vegetation on day 3.
Sun, moon and stars on day 4.
Fish and birds on day 5.
Land animals and man on day 6.
Gen 2:1… Thus the heaven and the earth were completed in all their vast array. (CLOSING STATEMENT)
Carmel, is it even remotely possible that this is the true meaning of Gen 1:1-2:3? Yes or No?
Berean: Carmel, you are on dangerous ground… I don’t believe a single word you write.
I don’t think anyone here takes the nonsense Carmel posts seriously. I personally believe he is mentally deranged. I just grab snippets of the stuff he claims when it’s easy to show a quick scripture that refutes his claim. Of course, then he’s off in la-la land, making up even more novels of nonsense out of thin air and irrationally misapplying scriptures – all while claiming that God showed him this stuff.
Word of advice to everyone: When a person has to claim that God/the Spirit personally showed them the things they are telling you, it means that person can’t actually show you those things in scripture – and their claims should therefore be taken with a grain of salt.
Hi Berean,
You: According to Genesis 1 yes, according to Genesis 2:4 yes and no
Me: THANK YOU VERY MUCH Berean!
Now read according to this version:
DRB. Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth.
But let’s take your version:
Genesis2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Berean, as you can read, THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO
THE GENERATIONS OF THE HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH, DEFINITELY A REFERENCE TO THE PHYSICAL ELEMENTS OF OUR PLANET, BUT IN GENESIS 1:1
IS A REFERENCE BOTH TO THE HEAVENLY BEINGS AND ALSO TO THE COSMOS. THUS,
THE HEAVENS (THE HEAVENLY BEINGS ) WERE THE BEGINNING, FOLLOWED BY THE EARTH, THE ENTIRE COSMOS NOT JUST OUR EARTH. PRECISELY BY
THE HEAVENLY BEINGS, OF WHICH LUCIFER WAS
THE BEGINNING ITSELF, THE FIRST-EVER MORNING STAR, THE LIGHT BRINGER,
Now WHO WAS THE ACTUAL “LIGHT” IF LUCIFER WAS THE LIGHT BRINGER, OBVIOUS: “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, HIDDEN IN LUCIFER’S HEART, HIS LIFE SOURCE, HIS CREATOR!
Let’s read:
Job38: 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the cornerstone (JESUS) thereof;
7When the morning stars praised me together,
and all the sons of God made a joyful melody?
Berean the above scripture emphatically declares that
GOD ESTABLISHED THE EARTH!
When the morning stars praised GOD together, and all the sons of God made a joyful melody?
THUS THE HEAVENLY BEINGS (THE HEAVENS) WERE CREATED FIRST,
Now attention please:
8Or who shut up the sea with doors,
when it brake forth,
as if it had issued out of the womb?
Berean, in the above it is evidently clear that
THE SEA, DELIBERATELY, NOT BY GOD’S OWN WORD, ISSUED OUT OF THE WOMB!!!
NOTICE IT SAYS “THE WOMB” A PARTICULAR WOMB WHICH MEANS THAT
THE SEA WAS BORN, CAME TO BE, FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME PRECISELY WHEN LUCIFER FLOODED THE EARTH OF GENESIS 1:1
Now, read what God said and ASSERTED above :
8 Or who SHUT UP the sea with doors, (WHY DID GOD SHUT UP THE SEA WITH DOORS?)
when it brake forth, (deliberately Berean, SATAN’S DEED, THE FACT THAT GOD SHUT UP THE SEA, SO GOD DIDN’T GIVE BIRTH TO THE SEA AS SUCH! the fact that Jesus walked and controlled it .NO?)
THUS, LUCIFER FIRST FOR AN ENDLESS TIME CORRUPTED THE ENTIRE COSMOS AND EVENTUALLY HE KICKED STARTED HIS REBELLION BY THE FLOODING OF THE EARTH,
GOD’S FIRST TEARS,
AND KILLED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE/GIANTS.
Mentioned in 2 Enoch 1 And I lay on my bad sleeping. •And, while I slept, a great distress entered my heart, and I was weeping with my eyes in a dream. And I could not figure out what this distress might be, |nor| what might be happening to me. •Then two huge men appeared to me, the like of which I had never seen on earth. Their faces were like the shining sun, their eyes were like burning lamps; from their mouths fire was coming forth; their clothing was various singing; their wings were more glistening than gold; their hands were whiter than snow. And they stood at the head of my bed and called me by my name. Then I awake from my sleep, and saw those men, standing in front of me, in actuality.
THE CHAOS OF GENESIS 1:2. BY WHICH LUCIFER BECAME
THE MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING confirmed by Jesus in
John8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning,….
NOAH’S FLOOD WAS NOT THE BEGINNING, IT WAS THE END! NO?
Genesis 1:2 was THE ONLY EVENT
NOT DIRECTLY BY GOD, THE FACT THAT HE SHUT UP THE SEA, THE FACT ALSO ATTENTION AGAIN PLEASE:
THAT GOD SPECIFICALLY IS NOT MENTIONED IN COMPARISON AND IN CONTRAST TO THE REST OF THE VERSES OF GENESIS 1! READ HEREUNDER:
1 In the beginning God created heavens, and earth.
2And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
3And God said: (1)
4And God saw
6And God said:(2)
7And God made
8And God called (3)
9God also said: (4)
10And God called (5) ……And God saw
11And he said: (6)
12And God saw
14And God said:(7)
16And God made
17And he set …….And God saw
20God also said:(8)
21And God created
22And he blessed
24And God said: (9)
25And God made ……And God saw
26And he said: (10)
27And God created …… he created him: ……he created them.
28And God blessed
29And God said:(11)
31And God saw
MY POINT IS THAT IN CONTRAST WITH ALL THE VERSES, GOD, IN GENESIS 1:2 NEITHER SPOKE NOR DID ANYTHING RELATED TO CREATION!
WHAT’S WRONG WITH GENESIS 1:2, WHY DIDN’T GOD SAY OR DO ANYTHING.
ATTENTION Berean READ:
John1:1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
AS YOU CAN READ GOD MADE ALL THINGS BY HIS OWN WORD, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, AS A SPIRIT! THUS
THE FACT THAT GOD WAS ABSENT IN Genesis 1:2 and never SPOKE HIS OWN WORDS, IT PROVES THAT WHAT OCCURRED IN GENESIS 1:2
WAS NOT BY GOD’S OWN WORD, JESUS! NO?
ONLY THE SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED OVER THE WATERS, HENCE,
JESUS ALSO WALKED ON WATERS AS A HUMAN, AND CONTROLLED THEM!
IN GENESIS 1:2 THE SPIRIT OF GOD/JESUS SIMPLY OBSERVED THE CHAOS STATE LUCIFER HAD DONE TO HIS SUPPOSED EARTH! John8:24-26
READ PSALM I8:6-19 PLEASE AND REFLECT.
THE FACT THAT DARKNESS/SATAN WAS OVER THE DEEP!
THE DEEP IS A REFERENCE TO HELL THE CENTER OF THE EARTH.
SATAN’S HEADQUARTERS!
NOW, READ GENESIS 1:3 IT SAYS:
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
(THIS LIGHT IS NOT JUST PHYSICAL IF IT WAS, BUT A REFERENCE TO “THE WORD” JESUS, AS A SPIRIT, THE BEGINNING OF ALL GOD’S WORK, WHICH GOD HAD JUST PRONOUNCED )
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
THIS DIVISION IS NOT JUST PHYSICAL IF IT IS, BUT FOR SURE IT IS MORE SPIRITUAL, BETWEEN THE GOOD WORK OF GOD BY
“THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, AS A SPIRIT, WHO IS THE ONLY MEDIATOR SPIRIT, AND LIGHT OF THE WORLD,
AND THE EVIL WORK OF DARKNESS/SATAN’S MESS, THAT OCCURRED IN GENESIS 1:2. NOW READ
John12:35 Jesus therefore said to them: Yet a little while,
the light (JESUS) is among you.
Walk whilst you have the light, that
the darkness(SATAN) overtake you not…..
36Whilst you have the light,
believe in the light,
that you may be the children of light. ….( CHILDREN OF JESUS CHRIST, Hebrews 2:13)
46 I am come as light into the world; ….
Markn9:3 And his garments became shining and exceeding white as snow, so as no fuller upon earth can make white.
BELIEVE IT OR NOT Berean, JESUS WAS BORN OUT OF MARY’S WOMB FIRST AS A LUMINOUS SPIRIT,
THE SON OF GOD, Than God the Father, FURNISHED HIM WITH HIS FLESH BODY!
THE SON OF MAN!
THE FATHER’S GENUINE SUBSTANCE, THE HOLOCAUST! Genesis 22:8
Now let’s go back to Genesis1:5 And God called the light (OF GOD) day, and the darkness (OF SATAN) night.
GOD ONLY CALLED THEM AS SUCH, he created neither the sun nor the stars yet as we know them.
THE FACT THAT IT IS THE ACTUAL COMMENCEMENT OF OUR PHYSICAL CREATION by
“THE WORD” made flesh, Jesus, the Son of Man to be,
THE BEGINNING AND THE END OF ALL THE BEGINNINGS AND THE ENDS OF GOD’S WORK.
Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last,
the beginning and the end.
THE FACT THAT IT WAS NOT PERFECT BUT
GOOD IN RELATION TO CREATION AND VERY GOOD ONCE MAN WAS CREATED
NOW TO THE ENIGMATIC PHRASE: And the evening and the morning were the first day.
NOT ACTUALLY OUR 24 HOUR DAY
JUST READ THIS:
GENESIS 2:4These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created,
IN THE DAY (why not “in the days” He made them in six days, no?)
that the Lord God made (NOT CREATED) the heaven and the earth:
NOW READ THIS ARTICLE PLEASE ENTITLED
biblical reasons to doubt the creation days were 24 hour periods
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Gene: Proclaimer…….what makes you think being a partaker of the Devine nature, makes you not a human being?
Gene is another example. Like Carmel, he knows some scriptures – but that’s the end of it. His mind doesn’t work right anymore, and therefore his posts, like Carmel’s, are often a mish-mash of words that, although English, are strung together in patterns so nonsensical that it is almost impossible for a rational-minded person to discern what he’s even talking about. They are loaded with spelling and grammatical mistakes, and repetitions of logical errors that have already been debunked a thousand times.
I’d like to put Gene on the Hot Seat and force him to stand and defend the debunked arguments that he keeps repeating – but then I think it may be an exercise in futility.
Take his statement above, for example.
1 Cor 15:42-52… So will it be with the resurrection of the dead…. it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body… The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man… flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God… We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
John 3:3-7… no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again… no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’
Gene, are you able to see from these two passages that flesh can only give birth to flesh, and therefore one must be born again of water and spirit (something other than flesh) in order to see, enter or inherit the kingdom of God in heaven?
Are you able to see that there is a difference between our natural flesh bodies and the spiritual bodies of those who dwell in heaven?
These two passages should make it very clear to you that human beings (who are flesh creatures) can neither see, nor enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God in heaven. But Jesus sees, has entered, and has inherited the kingdom of God in heaven, Gene. So what does tell you about Jesus’ body? “As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.”
Gene, are the bodies of those who are of heaven the same as those who are of earth? Are heavenly bodies made of flesh like the bodies of those who are of the earth?
Of course Gene will just ignore this stuff, walk away for a while, and then come back at a later date spouting the same stuff again in his broken English writing style that is nearly impossible to understand.
There is nothing new under the sun.
The only question is whether it’s worth my time to put him on the Hot Seat and FORCE him to address this stuff in a setting where he can’t run away.
Carmel: GENESIS 2:4These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, IN THE DAY (why not “in the days” He made them in six days, no?) that the Lord God made (NOT CREATED) the heaven and the earth…
Funny you should bring this up, since I just addressed it to Proclaimer in our private thread a couple of hours ago…
There are two ways the idiom is used. For example, Jesus also speaks of the events “back in the days (plural) of Noah”. (Matt 24:37, etc) We know from the plural “days” that they are literal days, but we don’t know how many of them. But Jesus could have also used the singular “day” (back in the day of Noah) to make his point. If he had used the singular, then we’d know from context that the “day” was a general time period, and not a literal day. But since he used the plural “days”, we know it is a general time period made up of a bunch of literal days.
We do it the same way today. You can say “back in the day of my grandmother”, in which case the singular “day” is not a literal day, but a general time period. But you could also say, “back in the days of my grandmother”, in which case it is still a general time period, but the plural “days” refers to a bunch of literal days throughout that general time period.
As for you STILL trying to make something out of “created vs made”, I’ll show you again…
Isaiah 45:18… For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Just look at all those words Yahweh used to emphasize the same exact thing. Here’s another example…
Isaiah 43:7… everyone called by My name and created for My glory, whom I have indeed formed and made.
And another…
Deut 32:6… Do you thus repay the LORD, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?
Carmel, there is no distinction between “created” and “made” in the Genesis account. It’s just one of the many WEAK ploys you use in your attempt to force the scriptures into teaching what you want them to teach instead of just letting them teach you.
Your arguments are null and very irrational. Give it up already.
Hi Mike,
You: Carmel, is it even remotely possible that this is the true meaning of Gen 1:1-2:3? Yes or No?
ME; DEFINITELY NOT MY BROTHER IN CHRIST MIKE!
FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT AFTER GENESIS 1:1
THERE IS THE MOST VITAL CONJUNCTION
AND…..
Hereunder is an article which you can read, precisely on the same argument you just posted, I am only going to post the particular caption!
If the word “and” had not been there, the first verse might have been taken for a sort of summary of all the rest of the chapter; and thus hasty readers, and preachers, and commentators have been too disposed to treat it in expounding the chapter. They imagined that God’s creating in the beginning was set out in detail under the various days that afterward follow; but that little conjunction precludes such an interpretation. Compare such statements elsewhere, as for instance, in
Genesis 5:1 1This is the book of the generation of Adam.
On the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel: If the word “and” had not been there, the first verse might have been taken for a sort of summary of all the rest of the chapter; and thus hasty readers, and preachers, and commentators have been too disposed to treat it in expounding the chapter. They imagined that God’s creating in the beginning was set out in detail under the various days that afterward follow; but that little conjunction precludes such an interpretation. Compare such statements elsewhere, as for instance, in
Genesis 5:1 1This is the book of the generation of Adam.
On the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God.
What if we compare it to, say, Genesis 2:4-5?
4These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. 5And no plant of the field was yet in the earth…
Do you see “the most vital conjunction AND” there? Yep, it’s there in the Hebrew too.
So does vs 4 speak of a DIFFERENT heaven and earth than vs 5? If not, you have no grounds for claiming that 1:1 speaks of a different heaven and earth than 1:2.
So now that your source’s argument has been shot down, I ask you again…
Carmel, is it even remotely possible that Gen 1:1 is an opening statement, Gen 2:1-3 is a closing statement, and everything in between is the actual creation account in the order it occurred? Yes or No?
Hi Carmel
Hi Berean,
You: According to Genesis 1 yes, according to Genesis 2:4 yes and no
Me: THANK YOU VERY MUCH Berean!
Now read according to this version:
DRB. Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth.
But let’s take your version:
Genesis2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Berean, as you can read, THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO
THE GENERATIONS OF THE HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH, DEFINITELY A REFERENCE TO THE PHYSICAL ELEMENTS OF OUR PLANET, BUT IN GENESIS 1:1
IS A REFERENCE BOTH TO THE HEAVENLY BEINGS AND ALSO TO THE COSMOS. THUS,
THE HEAVENS (THE HEAVENLY BEINGS ) WERE THE BEGINNING, FOLLOWED BY THE EARTH, THE ENTIRE COSMOS NOT JUST OUR EARTH. PRECISELY BY
THE HEAVENLY BEINGS, OF WHICH LUCIFER WAS…..
Me
The hebrew word “towldah” tranlated in KJBible BY ” générations” MEAN ALSO 👉 birth, 👉origine,👉 History…..
8435
Towldah
or toldah {to-led-aw’}; from ‘yalad’ (3205); (plural only) descent, i.e. family; (figuratively) history:–birth, generations.
YALAD
3205
a primitive root; to bear young; causatively, to beget; medically, to act as midwife; specifically, to show lineage:–bear, beget, birth((-day)), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail(-eth, -ing woman).
NOW THE WORD “HEAVENS”
8064
Shamayim
dual of an unused singular shameh {shaw-meh’}; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):–air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).
carmel,
There is no reason to believe that the word “heavens” could also refer to the angelic host although I have no doubt that they were present at that time in the creation of the heavens and the earth.God bless
Hi Mike,
You: Isaiah 45:18… For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Just look at all those words Yahweh used to emphasize the same exact thing.
Me: I’ll make it clear for you:
WHEN THE SPERM MEET THE OVUM
A human being is MADE in the FORM of a fetus!
NOT CREATED AS SUCH FROM THE PHYSICAL SIDE POINT OF VIEW, SCIENTIFICALLY!
HUMANS DON’T CREATE AS SUCH!
FROM GOD’S POINT OF VIEW THOUGH, IN THE SAME INSTANT
this human being is CREATED spiritually in the soul, MADE physically in the flesh, FORMED in the fetus, and ESTABLISHED in the womb?
FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT HUMANITY PHYSICALLY BY THE SPERM AND THE OVUM, AND GOD SPIRITUALLY BY THE SOUL, PARTICIPATED TOGETHER AND
ESTABLISHED this human being first in the womb in the form of a fetus,
THEN ESTABLISHED THIS HUMAN BEING AGAIN ON EARTH AS
A HUMAN BEING IN THE TRUTH
CREATED, MADE, FORMED, AND ESTABLISHED BY
“THE WORD” MADE FLESH JESUS THE SON OF MAN!
John1:3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
ANSWER MIKE PLEASE:
In the above description when a human being is CREATED, FORMED, MADE, AND ESTABLISHED,
is it all the same exact thing for you?
YES OR NO PLEASE!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
You: Carmel, there is no distinction between “created” and “made” in the Genesis account.
It’s just one of the many WEAK ploys you use in your attempt to force the scriptures into teaching what you want them to teach instead of just letting them teach you.
Go ahead Mike, teach Frank
Feburary 2009
Frank W. Nelte
THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN ‘CREATE’ AND ‘MAKE’ IN GENESIS 1
Many people tend to view the verb “to make” as a synonym for the verb “to create”. And in our English
dictionary definitions these two verbs certainly do overlap to a considerable degree. In the Genesis
account both these verbs are used. But while the meanings of the two Hebrew verbs involved here
appear to many people to sometimes be synonymous, God very clearly did not intend these words to be
viewed as synonyms in the context of Genesis 1. This becomes clear from a closer examination of the
whole account.
Let’s examine the relevant words in this chapter.
THE HEBREW VERBS FOR “CREATE” AND FOR “MAKE”
The Hebrew verb translated as “create” is “bara”. It is used three times in chapter 1, in verses 1, 21 and
27. Here are the statements that use this verb:
GENESIS 1:1 = God CREATED the heavens and the earth.
GENESIS 1:21 = God CREATED all water creatures and all birds.
GENESIS 1:27 = God CREATED human beings.
The Hebrew verb translated as “made” is “asah”. This verb is used seven times in chapter 1, in verses
7, 11, 12, 16, 25, 26 and 31. Here are the statements that use this verb:
GENESIS 1:7 = God MADE the sky, the atmosphere.
GENESIS 1:11 = fruit trees are to MAKE (“yielding”) fruit after their kind.
GENESIS 1:12 = and so fruit trees MADE (“yielding”) fruit.
GENESIS 1:16 = God MADE two great lights.
GENESIS 1:25 = God MADE land animals after their kind.
GENESIS 1:26 = God said, let us MAKE man.
GENESIS 1:31 = God saw everything that He had MADE.
There are three things to take note of in these seven verses.
First of all, in verses 11 and 12 the Hebrew “asah” is somewhat disguised by being translated as
“yielding”. These verses in fact contain two totally different and unrelated Hebrew verbs in each verse,
which are unfortunately both translated into English in the KJV as “yielding”. Here is the text of verse 11
with the relevant Hebrew words inserted into the text. (The same two words apply to verse 12.)
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And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding (Hebrew “zara”) seed, and the
fruit tree yielding (Hebrew “asah”) fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and
it was so.
The clearer correct translation here should read: “God said, let … the fruit tree MAKE fruit after his kind”,
since every other occurrence of “asah” in this chapter is also translated as “made”.
[COMMENT: Here we need not concern ourselves with the meaning of “zara”.]
To make this quite clear: The translation “the fruit tree YIELDING fruit after his kind” conveys the correct
meaning of the Hebrew text here. So in that sense this translation is not incorrect. The problem is that, in
not showing the English language reader that this is simply the identical word elsewhere in the same
context translated as “made”, it helps to HIDE the correct meaning of this Hebrew verb for “made”
(“asah”).
Verses 11-12 show that “make” is the appropriate verb to describe the biological process by which fruit
trees produce fruits. Specifically, that process does NOT merit the verb “create”. Fruit trees do not
“create” fruit. And this use of “asah” in verses 11-12 helps to clarify the meaning of “asah” in the other
verses of this chapter.
The second thing to take note of is that the use of the verb “made” in Genesis 1:31 seems to show that
this verb may sometimes be used in a general way to include the meaning of “create”, though three
verses later, in Genesis 2:3 the two verbs are both used together, to show that their meanings actually
differ. Here is Genesis 2:3.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his
work which God created and made.
We can express the differences between these two Hebrew verbs as follows:
1) The Hebrew word for “create” implies bringing something new into existence by using only the Holy
Spirit (the power of God) to do the creating.
2) The Hebrew word for “make” generally implies bringing something new into existence by working
with, or making use of some things that were created previously. In other words, “making” generally
presupposes that something used in the making process is already in existence before the new thing is
“made”.
This meaning of “make” would be easier to recognize if here in verses 11-12 “asah” had been translated
as “making” rather than as “yielding”, because such a translation would CLEARLY LINK IT TO THE
OTHER VERSES WHERE THE VERB “MAKE” IS ALSO USED.
The third thing to note is that we will later examine the use of the verb “make” in verse 26 (“let Us MAKE
man”). There is a simple explanation for the use of “make” in this verse.
Before we analyze the above information, we should also consider all the “let …” statements made by
God in this chapter, since a “let …” statement by God can easily obviate the need for either the verb
“create” or the verb “make”. God speaking a command can have both of these effects, to create or to
make.
GOD’S “LET …” STATEMENTS IN GENESIS 1
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There are 11 statements in ten verses by God, which are introduced by the word “let”. They are found in
verses 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 15, 20, 22, 24 and 26. Here are these statements:
GENESIS 1:3 = LET there be light. This is not a reference to the creation of light, since God has always
been surrounded by light, and also the sun had already been created in verse 1. It is only a reference to
allowing the penetration of some light through the mists and vapors that had enveloped the earth after
Satan’s rebellion.
GENESIS 1:6 = LET there be a sky. This is also not a reference to the creation (or the bringing into
existence) of the sky. It simply refers to God’s actions of cleaning up the lower atmosphere that already
existed (ever since verse 1), and which had been polluted with thick fumes and smoke during Satan’s
rebellion.
GENESIS 1:9 = LET the waters under the heavens be gathered together. This is also not a reference to
the creation of the waters. It refers to the waters that already existed being gathered together.
GENESIS 1:11 = LET the earth bring forth grass. This is a reference to the creation of plant life (flora)
with the ability to reproduce, and to produce fruits and seeds. This is the first “let” statement thus far that
involved actual creating. But notice that this creating is achieved by USING something that already
existed, the soil. It was the soil that God commanded to bring forth plants and vegetation.
GENESIS 1:14 = LET there be lights in the sky. This is also not a reference to the creation of those lights
(they had already been created in verse 1). This simply refers to God’s actions of clearing the
atmosphere to such a degree that the sun and the moon and stars became visible for the first time (since
the conditions of verse 2 had come about) from a location here on earth.
GENESIS 1:15 = LET them be for lights in the sky of the heavens. This is likewise not a reference to the
creation of these lights, but only God’s statement identifying the designated purposes for these lights.
GENESIS 1:20 = LET the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature. This is a reference to the
creation of all life forms in the waters and also to all birds. This is the second “let” statement that involved
actual creating. But notice that again this creating is achieved by USING something that already existed,
the waters. It was the waters that God commanded to bring forth the aquatic life forms.
GENESIS 1:22 = LET fowl multiply in the earth. This statement is clearly after the birds have already
been created in the previous verse. So this “let” statement does not refer to any creating; it only refers to
reproduction.
GENESIS 1:24 = LET the earth bring forth the living creature. This is a reference to the creation of all
land animals. It is the third “let” statement that involves actual creating. And again this creating is
achieved by USING something that already existed, the earth. In the same way that God had
commanded the earth in verse 11 to bring forth vegetation, so now God commanded the earth to bring
forth all land animals.
GENESIS 1:26 = LET Us make man in our image … and LET them have dominion. These two are the
last “let” statements in this chapter, and they are not strictly a description of the actual creation of
mankind, though it may appear to be such. Let’s notice the following things about this verse.
First of all, verse 26 contains the only “let” statement that also includes the verb “make”. None of the
other “let” statements contain either the verb “make” or the verb “create”.
Now we have already seen that in verse 27 it says that God CREATED man. So WHY does it here in
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verse 26 say “let Us MAKE man”? Doesn’t this show that “make” and “create” really are synonyms? No,
it does not.
First of all, the statement “let Us make man” is not a description of the actual creation of man. Verse 26
is really only an expression of intent! That’s all! Likewise, the statement “let them have dominion” is also
only an expression of intent. And the first expression of intent in this verse uses the verb “make”
precisely because God was intending to MAKE the form of a man out of soil (and the form of a woman
out of a man’s rib). This “MAKING” did not involve creating; God used the soil He had created previously
to make that lifeless human model. Once that form (that lifeless model) had been formed, THEN God
created a man by breathing life into his nostrils.
So verse 26 presents an expression of intent to make something, and verse 27 is a summary statement
about the creation of mankind. But this does not mean that the verb “make” in verse 26 has the same
meaning as the verb “create” in verse 27. It does not have the same meaning! And we should be able to
see the distinction between these two verbs, and we should see the intended meaning of these two
verses.
To summarize the ten verses with “let” statements in chapter 1: three refer to something being created,
one verse is an expression of intent to do something, and the other six refer to God doing something with
things He had created before He made these “let” statements. These “let” statements show that we can
have references to things being CREATED even without the verb “create” being used; and we can also
have references to things being MADE without the verb “make” being used. In each case it is the context
of these “let” statements that shows whether “creating” or “making” is involved, or whether it is only an
expression of intent.
Now that we have looked at all the verses in this chapter that speak about “creating” and “making” and
“letting”, let’s put all of these verses together. Here is what we have.
COMBINING ALL THESE STATEMENTS
Here is the sequence of thoughts presented by all these particular statements.
Verse 1 = God CREATED the entire universe, including this planet earth.
Verse 3 = God ENABLED some of the sun’s light to penetrate through the clouds.
Verse 6 = God MADE the sky to be between the waters below and the clouds above, by clearing the
lower atmosphere.
Verse 7 = Same point as verse 6.
Verse 9 = God CAUSED the waters to gather into one big ocean.
Verse 11 = God CREATED all the plants, and plants are to MAKE fruits and seeds.
Verse 12 = Same point as verse 11.
Verse 14 = God further CLEARED the upper atmosphere, to make the sun and the moon visible from a
place on the earth.
Verse 15 = God DESIGNATED specific functions for the sun and the moon.
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Verse 16 = Same point as verse 15.
Verse 17 = God CORRECTED the orbits of the sun and the moon to perfect cycles.
Verse 20 = God CREATED all aquatic creatures and all birds.
Verse 21 = Same point as verse 20.
Verse 22 = God COMMANDED these life forms to multiply (parallel to verse 11).
Verse 24 = God CREATED all the land animals.
Verse 25 = Same point as verse 24. Though the word “created” could have been used here (as it is in
verse 21), this verse uses the word “made”. I suspect that this is because the previous verse has already
covered the creation of these animals, and because God used “the earth” in this process.
Verse 26 = God EXPRESSED HIS INTENTION to MAKE the human form.
Verse 27 = God CREATED human beings.
Verse 31 = God VIEWED everything He had MADE (this must include the things He had CREATED). I
suspect that instead of the longer statement “God saw everything that He had created and made” (as
found in essence in Genesis 2:3), this verse has simply presented this in the shortened form “God saw
everything that He had made”, with the clear understanding that this is to mean “everything He had
CREATED AND MADE”. The statement three verses later leads me to suspect this.
Genesis 2:3 = God’s work had consisted of both, creating and making things.
We have now examined all the statements in Genesis 1 that discuss creating and making. It should be
clear that God did not intend for these two words to have identical meanings. Understanding the
difference between these two verbs should help us to understand what really happened back in Genesis
chapter 1. People (e.g. worldly scholars) who blur the distinction between the two Hebrew verbs that are
used in this account are also likely to not really understand the information in this chapter. Specifically,
such scholars frequently fail to understand that verse 16 is not intended to be a discussion of the
“creation” of the sun and the moon.
When we read Genesis 1 we should never confuse “make” with “create”. And we should keep in mind
that verse 31 is in all likelihood a deliberately contracted statement.
Frank W. Nelte
Powered by TCPDF (www.tcpdf.org)Hi Mike,
You: What if we compare it to, say, Genesis 2:4-5?
4These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. 5And no plant of the field was yet in the earth…
Do you see “the most vital conjunction AND” there? Yep, it’s there in the Hebrew too.
So does vs 4 speak of a DIFFERENT heaven and earth than vs 5? If not, you have no grounds for claiming that 1:1 speaks of a different heaven and earth than 1:2.
ME: again your deviation Mike!
Read your own post:
You: Carmel, consider the following very carefully…
Gen 1:1… In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT)
ME: IT IS NOT ONLY AN INTRODUCTION STATEMENT Mike,
IT IS ALSO WHAT GOD CREATED PERFECTLY, IN FULL HARMONY WITH THE HEAVENLY HOSTS, John17:6 THE ONLY CREATION BY GOD THE FATHER! WHICH DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY PART FROM GENESIS 1:3….. FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT GENESIS 1:3 IS THE CREATION BY
“THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE!
THE LIGHT PRONOUNCED PRECISELY BY GOD THE FATHER IN GENESIS 1:3!
HERE IT COMES Mr. Mike
SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD!
DID YOU GET THAT FINALLY!
Gen 1:2-31… All the things God made, and the order in which they were made, ie:
Me: Mike Genesis 1:2, NO MIKE THAT IS ONLY YOU SAYING IT!
SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY THAT GOD DID SOMETHING HE IS NOT EVEN THERE!
Reading all the verses from Genesis 1:3
GOD SHOWED US HIS ENTIRE WORK WITHOUT ANY HESITATION!
WHY HE DIDN’T DO SO ALSO IN GENESIS 1:2
NOW TO YOUR DEVIATION:
Light on day 1. THAT LIGHT Mr. Mike is JESUS, THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!
WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON!
Heaven on day 2.
Earth and vegetation on day 3.
Sun, moon and stars on day 4.
Fish and birds on day 5.
Land animals and man on day 6.
In the above, you are saying that Genesis 1:1 is a SUMMARY of what’s to follow!
NOW READ WHAT I POSTED!
If the word “and” had not been there, the first verse might have been taken for a sort of summary of all the rest of the chapter; and thus hasty readers, and preachers, and commentators have been too disposed to treat it in expounding the chapter. They imagined that God’s creating in the beginning
was set out in detail under the various days that afterward follow;
but that little conjunction precludes such an interpretation.
SO YOUR INTERPRETATION IS FUTILE!
NOW TO GENESIS 2:4…
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth
when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
4 ABOVE IS NOT A SUMMARY OF WHAT’S TO FOLLOW, BUT AN INTRODUCTION PRECISELY TO THE PROCESS OF
THE GENERATIONS OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!
NOT TO THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH AS TWO DIFFERENT REALMS, THAT’S OVER AND DONE WITH!
I WONDER IF YOU KNOW WHAT SCRIPTURE IS REFERRING TO IN THE ABOVE I DOUBT IT!
5And no plant of the field was yet in the earth…
ABOVE IS PRECISELY WHAT OCCURRED, AND ALSO THE STATE OF THE EARTH IN RELATION TO THE PROCESS OF
THE GENERATIONS OF HEAVEN AND EARTH Mr. Mike
THE FACT THAT NO WATER IS PRESENT, BUT DUST!
WHICH IS NOT INCLUDED IN 4 AS SUCH! THUS IT IS A CONTINUATION, THAT’S WHY THE CONJUNCTION IS THERE!
while in Genesis 1:2 it is not an immediate continuation, but
A DESCRIPTION OF THE STATE OUR EX-WORLD WAS, OR MORE PRECISELY BECAME!
RAED THIS ARTICLE AND LEARN THE TRUTH!
YOU: So now that your source’s argument has been shot down,
Me: YOU BET!
I ask you again…
Carmel, is it even remotely possible that Gen 1:1 is an opening statement, Gen 2:1-3 is a closing statement, and everything in between is the actual creation account in the order it occurred? Yes or No?
NO, NO , Mike not just yet
KEEP ON TRYING
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel: ANSWER MIKE PLEASE:
In the above description when a human being is CREATED, FORMED, MADE, AND ESTABLISHED,
is it all the same exact thing for you?
YES OR NO PLEASE!
YES. And not just for me, but for all rational people.
You’ll see all four words there – each of them synonymous with the others. And as an added bonus for everyone who tries to make a distinction between Jesus being “begotten” and “created”, (Berean, Proclaimer, Lightenup), look at the 9th word down in the left column. As I’ve been saying here for a decade, any person who has ever been begotten is a new CREATION that didn’t exist before he was begotten/created.
Your argument is debunked, Carmel. God is said all throughout scripture (OT and NT) to have created/made/formed/established the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. The words all mean the same basic thing, just like I could say Bill Gates created, made, formed and established Microsoft – and I dang sure wouldn’t be talking about him doing four different things.
Carmel: Go ahead Mike, teach Frank
Is Frank here to stand and defend his misunderstandings and bizarre claims that are nowhere to be found in scripture? If not, then YOU’LL have to choose what you think is Frank’s best argument, and put in in your own words so that you CAN stand and defend it against my scrutiny.
Huge copy and paste jobs don’t cut it here, buddy. But go ahead and give it a try. I’ve already debunked every nonsensical thing I’ve seen you claim. Shoot me Frank’s best argument and let’s have it out.
Carmel, here is a freebie for you. Frank said:
The Hebrew verb translated as “made” is “asah”. This verb is used seven times in chapter 1, [like] GENESIS 1:31 = God saw everything that He had MADE.
Frank is sneaky. He knows full well that 1:31 – in and of itself – completely destroys his argument, and so he tries to get ahead of the destruction…
The second thing to take note of is that the use of the verb “made” in Genesis 1:31 seems to show that
this verb may sometimes be used in a general way to include the meaning of “create”…That’s right, Frank. 1:31 defeats your argument because it clearly says that EVERYTHING God produced in the creation account was MADE – including the things that were said to have been “created”!
So how are you going to wiggle out of the clear text of verse 31, Frank?
…though three verses later, in Genesis 2:3 the two verbs are both used together, to show that their meanings actually differ.
Sorry Frank, but using two different words that mean the same thing is a literary form that is used often throughout scripture, and by people all over the world today. From Wiki…
Pleonasm is redundancy in linguistic expression, such as “black darkness” or “burning fire”… used for emphasis. Such examples as “null and void”, “terms and conditions”, “each and every” are legal doublets…
But all Frank really needs is Gen 1:26-27…
26Then God said, “Let us make man in our image…”
27So God created man in His own image…
God didn’t do two different things to man. He made them, created them, formed them, established them, etc… and all of those words refer to the same action.
Here is Genesis 2:3.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his
work which God created and made.Poor Frank. The verse he chose to show that they mean different things actually shows that they mean the same. Why? Because BOTH words are applied to ALL of the things which God made/created.
God made/created heaven. He made/created earth. He made/created fish. He made/created animals. He made/created man.
Carmel, don’t tell Frank, but I highly suspect that he isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed.
Carmel, your argument is debunked.
Carmel: NOW TO GENESIS 2:4…
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth
when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.ABOVE IS NOT A SUMMARY OF WHAT’S TO FOLLOW, BUT AN INTRODUCTION PRECISELY TO THE PROCESS OF THE GENERATIONS OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!
I like that terminology. Gen 2:4 is an introduction to the process which follows… just like Gen 1:1 is an introduction to the process which follows.
And they are both linked with “the most vital conjunction AND” ! How nice for me and bad for you.
So call 1:1 and 2:4 by whatever terminology you want. The bottom line is that they are identical in form and function.
The conjunction “and” doesn’t prohibit 1:1 from being an introduction to the process which follows any more than the conjunction “and” in 2:4 prohibits it from being an introduction to the process which follows.
Carmel, your argument is debunked.
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