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LU: Mike,
I just have a tiny amount of time to spend here due to my college work and family time. I might have more time for a dedicated thread after the semester, middle of May.
👍🙂
Mike: WHY is Moses under the impression that our Creator is the Father – a single male entity?
LU: The Arm/Word of the LORD “Jesus” was not revealed yet as Jesus. The Father created and acted upon creation through Jesus, His “arm/Word.”
Yes, the scriptures do say that Yahweh created all things THROUGH Jesus. But you say Jesus IS the Creator, right? And now you’re saying that “The Father created…”
To me, this seems like double talk as an attempt to align your doctrine with what the scriptures actually teach.
So let me ask you plainly…
Moses clearly says that the Father ALONE (eg: “he”) is our Creator. (This aligns with all scripture, both OT and NT.)
YOU say that Jesus is the one who actually did the creative work. (This contradicts many scriptures, both OT and NT.)
So which one of those is the truth? What Moses says? Or what you say?
(P.S. Jesus was “revealed” to Moses – not as God or “Co-God”, but as another prophet like Moses that Yahweh would eventually raise up… which is exactly what Jesus turned out to be.)
(P.P.S. I find it very hard to believe that from the very beginning of our world, there had always been “Co-Yahwehs”, yet the only human being about whom it was said, “Yahweh would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend” was completely unaware of this “Yahweh Unity”, and believed that the Father alone was his God and Creator.)
Mike,
You said YOU say that Jesus is the one who actually did the creative work.
The Father created through Jesus. The Father provided the vision and anything needed (whatever that would have been) and the Son took what He was given and brought the vision into reality, as I understand it. So neither person created independently of the other, both were involved. I wouldn’t say that one person created the creation. The Spirit was involved also.
You said:
Yes, the scriptures do say that Yahweh created all things THROUGH Jesus.
I don’t think that is how scripture is worded.
Kathi, you said very recently that the Father said the words of Gen 1:26, and Jesus is the one who actually created man. Are you trying to double-talk your way out of that now?
And yes, many scriptures say God (as in the Father) created all things THROUGH Jesus. (John 1:3, Heb 1:2, Col 1:16)
There are also many other scriptures that make it clear that God, not Jesus, created all things. (Prov 8:22-31, Rev 3:14, Acst 4:24, among MANY others.)
(P.S. Please address the very last part of my previous post at your earliest convenience… the P.P.S. part at the bottom. Thanks.)
Mike,
This is what I said:
I believe that the Father gives the vision and the Son does what He has seen in the vision. The Son formed man. All things are made by the only begotten God, apart from the only begotten God, nothing has been made that has been made. John 1:3, even the heavens and the earth ;).
The Father gives the vision, the Son turns the vision into reality. Both are involved. The Father’s vision wasn’t turned into reality apart from the Son, imo.
You said: And yes, many scriptures say God (as in the Father) created all things THROUGH Jesus. (John 1:3, Heb 1:2, Col 1:16)
I agree. You used the name Yahweh before.
You said: There are also many other scriptures that make it clear that God, not Jesus, created all things.
I disagree.
You said: (P.P.S. I find it very hard to believe that from the very beginning of our world, there had always been “Co-Yahwehs”, yet the only human being about whom it was said, “Yahweh would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend” was completely unaware of this “Yahweh Unity”, and believed that the Father alone was his God and Creator.)
Since no one has seen the Father (John 1:18), then Moses must have seen the Son as Yahweh, imo. He spoke face to face with the second person of the Yahweh Unity.
Hi Berean, and MIKE:
Me:
I will give you specifically my answers and questions ONE BY ONE IN RESPECT TO YOUR POSTS!
The first one:
You: IF THERE HAD BEEN A PRECEDENT ON OUR EARTH, GOD WOULD HAVE INDICATED IT TO US…
IN A VERY CLEAR WAY.
Scripture:
All things are hard: man cannot explain them by word.
The eye is not filled with seeing, neither is the ear filled with hearing.
9What is it that hath been?
the same thing that shall be.
What is it that hath been done?
the same that shall be done.
10Nothing under the sun is new,
Answer Berean: WHAT DID OCCUR BEFORE THE SUN WAS?
WHEN ALL THINGS WERE NOT UNDER THE SUN?
A CLEAR REFERENCE TO GENESIS 1:1
neither is any man able to say:
Behold this is new:
for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.
THE FLOOD UNDER THE SUN WAS NOT THE FIRST THAT DID OCCUR BEREAN AND MIKE?
IT OCCURRED IN GENESIS 1:2
BEFORE THE SUN WAS!
11There is no remembrance of former things: nor indeed of those things which hereafter are to come, shall there be any remembrance with them that shall be in the latter end.
ONE DOWN BEREAN AND MIKE!
YOU: AND AS YOU SAID BEREAN:
GOD WOULD HAVE INDICATED IT TO US…
IN A VERY CLEAR WAY.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel
I simply want to tell you that YOU ARE MAKING A BAD APPLICATION OF ECCLESIASTES.
GOD PUT LIGHT BEFORE THE SUN TO SEPARATE LIGHT FROM DARKNESS…
THE ECCLESIASTES YOU QUOTE DOES NOT BRING LIGHT TO SEPARATE LIGHT FROM DARKNESS.IT’S MY POINT OF VIEW
MAY GOD PROTECT YOU
Hi Berean,
YOU: Hi Carmel
I simply want to tell you thatYOU ARE MAKING A BAD APPLICATION OF ECCLESIASTES.
Berean we are discussing scripture,
ONLY SCRIPTURE CHANGES WHAT I POST AND SAY, NOT YOU PERSONALLY OR OTHERS, YOUR OPINION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TRUTH!
CONTRADICT ME WITH SCRIPTURE PLEASE, THE WAY I DID!
I ONLY GAVE A YOU SCRIPTURE WHICH IS WRITTEN VERY CLEARLY AND IN SIMPLE PLAIN ENGLISH!
You: GOD PUT LIGHT BEFORE THE SUN TO SEPARATE LIGHT FROM DARKNESS…
You are talking about the very first act of our physical creation!
I produced scripture regarding Genesis 1:1-2 which are the beginning and the end IN A WAY, of
THE FIRST PERFECT CREATION OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!
Answer Berean please:
DID EVER GOD CREATE A PERFECT CREATION?
AS OUR PHYSICAL CREATION IS A MIXTURE OF
GOOD and VERY GOOD creation!
IS THERE ANYTHING THAT GOD CREATED PERFECT IN THE OT SCRIPTURE?
More to come
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel
I produced scripture regarding Genesis 1:1-2 which are the beginning and the end IN A WAY, of
THE FIRST PERFECT CREATION OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!
Sorry Carmel you have NO SCRIPTURE TO PROVE GENESIS 1:2 WAS A FLOOD.
GENESIS 1:2 IS THE FIRST STAGE OF THE CREATION OF OUR HEAVEN AND EARTH.Answer Berean please:
DID EVER GOD CREATE A PERFECT CREATION?
AS OUR PHYSICAL CREATION IS A MIXTURE OF
GOOD and VERY GOOD creation!
IS THERE ANYTHING THAT GOD CREATED PERFECT IN THE OT SCRIPTURE?
Of course God made a PERFECT creation, IT IS THE ONE WE LIVE ON AND WHICH IS DESCRIBED IN GENESIS 1 and 2.
Our earth is not a reworking of an old earth, remodeled by God.Carmel, we must stick to THE WORD OF GOD ALONE, AND THE WORD IS EXPLAINED AND UNDERSTOOD BY THE WORD OF GOD WHO IS THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT.
WE MUST CLING TO THE THINGS REVEALED BY GOD IN HIS HOLY WORD AS IT IS WRITTEN.
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.(Deut.29:29)
God bless
Hi Berean,
You: IS THERE ANYTHING THAT GOD CREATED PERFECT IN THE OT SCRIPTURE?
You: Of course God made a PERFECT creation,
IT IS THE ONE WE LIVE ON AND WHICH IS DESCRIBED IN GENESIS 1 and 2.
ME: AGAIN THAT’S YOUR OPINION WHICH IS NOT ACCEPTED WHEN YOU ADDRESS SCRIPTURE!
SO SCRIPTURE PLEASE!
I WANT TO READ THAT THE WORLD OF THE OT WAS PERFECT IN ANY WAY!
SO WHERE CAN ONE READ THAT OUR PHYSICAL CREATION WAS CREATED PERFECT PLEASE!
ALSO:
READ: Genesi 3:17 And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat,
cursed is the earth in thy work;
with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life.
It seems you have a problem here Berean, because
GOD HIMSELF CURSED THE WORLD!
THE FACT THAT HE SENT HIS SON TO SAVE THE WORLD, AND REDEEM HUMANITY!
HOW ON EARTH OUR CREATION IS PERFECT WHEN WE, SUFFER, DIE, AND THERE IS MORE EVIL GOING ON THAN ANYTHING ELSE!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel
But Carmel, I was talking to you about the land that God originally gave to our first parents…(and which of course was disfigured because of sin) this land was perfect and you know it well. Do not seek to divert the subject which is to recognize that this earth had no precedent, no flood which would show a history of individuals whom God had chastised, because the flood comes when men cross the red line. The Bible only tells the story of the flood in the days of Noah and nothing else. And God warns us today that it will be like in the days of Noah…
What happened in the days of Noah will also happen at the coming of the Son of Man.24:38 For in the days before the flood men were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark;
24:39 and they knew nothing, until the flood came and swept them all away: so will it be at the coming of the Son of man.
24:40 Then of two men who are in a field, one will be taken and the other left;
24:41 of two women grinding at the millstone, one will be taken and the other left.
24:42 Watch therefore, since you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
THERE WE CAN APPLY ECCLESIASTES
“WHAT HAS BEEN WILL BE”WHEN INIQUITY HAS REACHED ITS PAROXYSM GOD WILL INTERVENE AS IN THE TIME OF NOAH, BUT IT WILL NOT BE BY A FLOOD BUT BY FIRE (SEE 2 PETER 3)
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It’s worth reading because it’s topical:
2Peter 3
5 For they do not want to know that heavens once existed by the word of God, as well as an earth drawn from water and formed by water,3:6 and by these things the then world perished, submerged in water,
3:7 while by the same word the present heavens and earth are kept and reserved for fire, for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
3:8 But there is one thing, beloved, which you must not ignore, that in the sight of the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
3:9 The Lord is not slow in fulfilling the promise, as some believe; but he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
3:10 The day of the Lord will come as a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a crash, the fiery elements will dissolve, and the earth with the works it contains will be consumed.
3:11 Since therefore all these things must be dissolved, what must not be the holiness of your conduct and your godliness,
3:12 while you wait and hasten the coming of the day of God, because of which the fiery heavens will dissolve and the fiery elements will melt!
3:13 But we await, according to his promise, a new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
3:14 Wherefore, beloved, while waiting for these things, strive to be found by him spotless and blameless in peace.
3:15 Believe that the patience of our Lord is your salvation,
God bless
Hi Berean,
You: Sorry Carmel you have NO SCRIPTURE TO PROVE GENESIS 1:2 WAS A FLOOD.
GENESIS 1:2 IS THE FIRST STAGE OF THE CREATION OF OUR HEAVEN AND EARTH.
Me: Sorry Berean, YOU HAVE NO SCRIPTURE TO PROVE THAT GENESIS 1:2 IS THE FIRST STAGE OF THE CREATION OF OUR HEAVEN AND EARTH!
And what about Genesis 1:1?
If Genesis 1:1 is not the act of creation,
then where do the earth, the darkness, and the waters come from that are referred to in Genesis 1:2 before God’s first fiat?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel
Sorry Berean, YOU HAVE NO SCRIPTURE TO PROVE THAT GENESIS 1:2 IS THE FIRST STAGE OF THE CREATION OF OUR HEAVEN AND EARTH!
And what about Genesis 1:1?
If Genesis 1:1 is not the act of creation,
then where do the earth, the darkness, and the waters come from that are referred to in Genesis 1:2 before God’s first fiat?
Me
Carmel, you’re looking for complications where there are none.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
1:2 The earth was formless and empty: there was darkness on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
THIS IS GOD’S FIRST ACT AND THEN HE CREATES LIGHT:
God says: Let there be light! And there was light.
1:4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
1:5 God called the light day, and he called the darkness night. So there was evening, and there was morning: that was the first day.
THERE IS NO TRACE OF CURSE IN VERSE 2
FOR THE SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED OVER THE WATERS….
“WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD, THERE IS FREEDOM”YES, THE FACT THAT THERE IS DARKNESS IS NOT NEGATIVE SINCE THIS DARKNESS IS FINALLY CALLED “EVENING”
AND THE “DAY” LIGHT.CARMEL, REALLY THINK ABOUT THIS, IT’S IMPORTANT.
GOD BLESS
Hi Berean,
Sorry AGAIN,
YOU HAVE NO SCRIPTURE TO PROVE THAT GENESIS 1:2 IS THE FIRST STAGE OF THE CREATION OF OUR HEAVEN AND EARTH!
IT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING WHICH IS CONFUSING!
ALSO, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT SOMEHOW YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I ASKED YOU NEVER MIND WHAT SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SAYS!
I SAID:
And what about Genesis 1:1?
If Genesis 1:1 is not the act of creation,
DID YOU GET THAT SIMPLE ENGLISH QUESTION? I MAKE IT CLEAR FOR YOU:
IF GENESIS WAS SIMPLY A DESCRIPTION OF WHAT GOD DID IN THE BEGINNING,
IT IS NOT ACTUALLY PART OF OUR PHYSICAL GOOD AND VERY GOOD CREATION!
DID YOU GET THAT PLEASE?.
NOW TO MY QUESTION AGAIN:
then where do the earth, the darkness, and the waters come from that are referred to in Genesis 1:2
before God’s first fiat?
YOU: Carmel, you’re looking for complications where there are none.
ME. I AM MORE SIMPLE THAN YOU THINK I’M AFRAID!
also, GENESIS 1:2 IS ONLY A DESCRIPTION OF THE STATE OF THE EARTH,
WHERE ARE THE HEAVENS MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY REGARDING
THEIR ACTUAL STATE AND CREATION
IN THE SAME WAY, THE EARTH IS MENTIONED IN GENESIS 1:2
WE DON’T KNOW THE SLIGHTEST IDEA
ABOUT THE HEAVENS, NO DESCRIPTION AVAILABLE!
DON’T TELL ME THAT THE HEAVENS WERE CREATED AFTER THE EARTH, FOR GOD’S SAKE
WHICH IS A CLEAR NONSENSE NO:
GENESIS 1:1 IS CLEAR
IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS(FIRST)
AND THE EARTH
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
LU……..AZ I have said , I was a grape farmer for many years, I think I know how a vine work’s more then most . THE VINE in the parable is Jesus, who came from the “root ” of Jesse and was an “offspring” of the family of King David, just as he said he was. Rev 22: 16.
Isa 1v1……” and there shall come forth a rod our of the stem of Jesse, and a “BRANCH” shall grow out of his “ROOTS”: and the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom, and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the LORD”.
JER 23:5 ……“Behold the days come says the LORD that I will raise up unto David a rightious “BRANCH” and a King shall reign and prosper and shall execute judgement and justice in the earth.
As I said Jesus himself started as a “BRANCH” from MANKIND, just as it is written above. HE CAME FROM THE STOCK OF “HUMANITY” himself, not from some prexisting being, as you people falsely preach, he was a human from human roots and stock. Just as we all are.
Peace and love to you and yours LU………gene
Hi Carmel
You :IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS(FIRST)
AND THE EARTHMe
According to Genesis 1 yes, according to Genesis 2:4 yes and no
Genesis 2:4 say:These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
In reality the first phase of creation is earth enveloped in waters.
Then God creates the light…Then, God divides the waters in two and thus creates a space which He calls firmament, the sky…
Then God gathered the waters from below and made appear “the dry” which He calls “earth”
THIS IS WHAT THE APOSTLE PETER SAYS WITH HIS WORDS:
Translation David Martin
• 1744 For they willfully ignore this, that the heavens were [made] of all antiquity, and that the earth [came out] of the water, and that it subsists among the water, by the word of God; (2 Peter 3:5)
King James Version / King James Bible
• 1611/1994 – Nadine L. Stratford & Reformers’ Bible For they willfully ignore this, that by the word of God the heavens existed from ancient times, and the earth stood out of water and in water; (2 Peter 3:5)GOD HAS SHAPED FROM ALL PIECES THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH WHICH IS ONE WHOLE.
I AM AMAZED WHEN I REVIEW ALL OF THIS.
THEN JUST READ THE TEXT THAT SPEAK FOR ITSELF.GOD BLESS
As I said Jesus himself started as a “BRANCH” from MANKIND, just as it is written above. HE CAME FROM THE STOCK OF “HUMANITY” himself, not from some prexisting being, as you people falsely preach, he was a human from human roots and stock. Just as we all are.
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death…
Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.
Notice how Jesus shared in human nature and how we can share in divine nature?
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
Sorry to have to say this Gene, but we have a test to know if you are speaking from the Spirit of God and you have failed that test. If we can share in divine nature, does that mean we did not have human nature? Likewise, if Jesus shared in human nature, does that mean he did not have divine nature?
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
LU……..AZ I have said , I was a grape farmer for many years, I think I know how a vine work’s more then most . THE VINE in the parable is Jesus, who came from the “root ” of Jesse and was an “offspring” of the family of King David, just as he said he was. Rev 22: 16.
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Perhaps you have partaken too much from the fruit of the vine after it has fermented?
Hi Carmel
THE HEAVENS (THE HEAVENLY BEINGS ) WERE THE BEGINNING FOLLOWED BY THE EARTH, (THE COSMOS) IN GENESIS 1:1.
THEN LUCIFER CORRUPTED THE COSMOS AND CAUSED THE FLOOD AND CHAOS OF GENESIS 1:2.
Me
Carmel, you are on dangerous ground… I don’t believe a single word you write.
The angelic army was not created at that time.
Genesis 1 has nothing to do with the angelic army.
You need to follow what the bible says and nothing else.Proclaimer…….what makes you think being a partaker of the Devine nature, makes you not a human being? All who have the Spirit of the living God have the Devine nature in them. Any human being who has been “ANOINTED” with the Spirit of the living God , has it.
How does that change, the idea of, Jesus having partaking the “Devine nature”, mean he did not come into his “only” Existence, as a human being , it dosen’t, and by the way he still is a human being. Where does any scripture say because Jesus was anointed of the spirit from above, he is some how different then his brothers and sisters , who are also anointed from above by God the Father , also.
Trying to make the human man Jesus appear different then we are, is the very work of Satan, that is exactly what Satan wants you to think. FACT is, Jesus was and still is a 100% human being, he came in the flesh and still is flesh, and will return a flesh man, and drink wine with his disciples who will also be flesh men.
When John said Jesus “came in the flesh” he was addressing the Gnostic’s who said, as you do, Jesus prexisted as another being, and was only “desguised” as a human being, but actually came from the PELOR OF THE GODS, he called them also “ANTICHRIST “. John did not just mean Jesus was “morphed” into the flesh, but that he actually came into his “only” ever actual being, as a flesh human being and still is.
I gave LU, the exact word for word of some of the “exact” scriptures that backed me up, but you like her seem to refuse to believe them. Why is that proclaimer?, is it because you “truly” don’t believe scripture, nor what Jesus said either, are you still neither “hot nor cold”, be careful least he spuue you out of his mouth.
By the way, I hardly if ever drink wine or any alcohol, haven’t for the last ten or fifteen years, not that I care if any drinks, I see nothing wrong with it, if that is what you like, the grapes I grew were “Thompsons” , used for raisns.
Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer. ……….gene
Gene
In the biginning, THE WORD (Jesus) WAS WITH THE GOD AND WAS GOD.He possessed HIS FATHER’S DIVINE NATURE.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
This is the TRUTH FOR ETERNITY.
Col.2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
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