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Mike
Hi Berean, you didn’t actually answer my question.
Is Jesus a messenger of God? Yes or no?
And yet yes I answered
but I will try to be more complete later.Berean…
2 Chronicles 36:15-16… Again and again the LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to His people through His messengers because He had compassion on them and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despising His words and scoffing at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD against His people was stirred up beyond remedy.
Prophets are messengers of God, Berean.
Deuteronomy 18:18… I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
God said this to Moses, and He was talking about Jesus. Jesus is the prophet that God would eventually send to His people to speak God’s words. In fact, Jesus is God’s preeminent spokesman, which is why he bears the title “The Word of God”.
Hebrews 1:1-2… On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the world.
This confirms that Jesus is the prophet/messenger through whom God spoke to us “in these last days”.
Revelation 1:1… This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending his messenger to his servant John…
Notice here that Jesus sends his own messenger to John, who is himself a messenger of Jesus’ messenger, and delivers the revelation to other humans. But now notice that the revelation actually came from God Himself, who gave it to Jesus to relay. So it went like this…
1. God is the originator of the message, and gave it to His messenger Jesus.
2. God’s messenger Jesus relayed the message to his own heavenly messenger.
3. Jesus’ heavenly messenger relayed the message to human messenger John.
4. John relayed the message to other human beings.
I want you to think this out for a minute… God gave this message to Jesus after Jesus had ascended back to heaven, right? So Jesus was back to existing as a heavenly son of God when God gave him this message, right?
There is no word “angel” in either the Hebrew or Greek text of the Bible. Both the Hebrew word “malak” and the Greek word “aggelos” simply mean “messenger”. And when the particular messenger in question is thought to be a heavenly being, English translators call that messenger an “angel”.
But look at the above. Jesus is a heavenly being who is delivering a message from God, right? And heavenly beings who deliver messages from God are called “angels” in English Bibles, right? So by their very own definition, Jesus is an angel of God, ie: a spirit messenger of God.
So yes, Jesus is most definitely a messenger/prophet of God. So when Hebrews 1 talks about how Jesus inherited a name from his God that is higher than the names of “the messengers/angels”, the word “other” MUST BE implied, because Jesus IS a messenger/angel – just like those his name is now higher than.
He is a higher ranking messenger/angel than all the OTHER messengers/angels, just as Michael, as an archangel, is higher ranking than the OTHER angels who are below him.
So it all boils down to this…
1. If you use the actual Greek words of Hebrews 1, then it says that the messenger Jesus has a greater name than the OTHER messengers.
2. If you prefer the English word “angel” (which isn’t actually in any Biblical text), then you also have to maintain the DEFINITION of the English word “angel” – which is a messenger of God who has a spirit nature as opposed to a flesh nature.
3. And if you maintain the definition of the word “angel”, then Hebrews 1 says that the angel Jesus has a greater name than the OTHER angels.
That is the long and the short of it, Berean. There’s no way around it. Either use the actual word “messenger” (of which Jesus is one), or be consistent with the meaning of “angel” and accept that Jesus – as a known spirit messenger of God – is one.
Berean: And yet yes I answered
but I will try to be more complete later.You didn’t answer, and there’s no need to be “more complete”. It is a simple yes or no question. Jesus either IS a messenger of God or he ISN’T.
Which one, please?
Mike,
You said: The only one I know who believes that God is a unity of Yahweh the Father and “Yahweh the Son” (but NOT a “Yahweh the Spirit” third person) is you.
I include the Spirit too, as the united “inner person.” It’s just a matter of semantics.
Hi Mike,
You: No they don’t. Both verses contain a book of life
Me: Read: NET. 17:8 The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction.
The inhabitants of the earth – all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world–
will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.
In the above Mike, the phrase “OF THE LAMB SLAIN” is absent WHY:
This verse is talking about THE BEAST/SATAN NOT ABOUT
THE LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN:
A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CONCEPT!
GOT IT Mr. Mike!
But the other contains the phrase ” THE LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN” which is most important for the TRUTH in that particular scripture!
SO I repeat: THEY ARE NOT TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE SAME CONCEPT!
You: Apparently you didn’t understand what the NET scholars were saying.
Me: AND HOW! THEY WERE NOT ACTUALLY SAYING THE TRUTH, SINCE THEY ARE CARNALLY MINDED WORLDLY SCHOLARS! NOTHING OF GOD!
THEY WERE ONLY SUGGESTING Mr. Mike!
FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THEY ONLY FOCUSSED ON THE WORD “WRITTEN”
AND COMPLETELY EITHER IGNORED THE TRUTH OF THE MESSAGE, OR THEY WERE SIMPLY BLIND TO THE TRUTH in Rev.13:8!
THAT THE LAMB WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH!
You: which would be utter nonsense –
METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING NO Mr.Mike,
You: (or the utterly ridiculous notion of a lamb who has been in the process of being continually murdered non-stop, minute after minute, hour after hour, day after day from since the world began)
The above Mr. Mike IT’S PURE TRUTH!
HERE COMES A NOVEL WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT ITS YOUR PIGEON!
JESUS, AS A SPIRIT,” THE WORD”
ALL IN HIM/ALL BY HIM,
SINCE HE WAS SLAIN, PRECISELY HIDDEN, AND BURIED WITHIN THE HEART OF LUCIFER AND HIS ANGELS, LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, Mathew 13:44
GAVE THEM LIFE AND FREE WILL, TO PERFORM THEIR EVIL PROCESS RIGHT FROM THE MOMENT OF THE REBELLION IN HEAVEN AND THROUGHOUT THE OLD TESTAMENT, John 8:24-26! ATTENTION PLEASE;
FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH REGARDING THE TRUE GOD, OF WHICH LUCIFER NEVER ACCEPTED, AND ETERNAL LIFE, WHICH THEY ALSO TOOK IT FOR GRANTED THAT IT WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE FOR THE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD, SATAN’S SUBSTANCE!
You: Another famous example is Luke 23:43…
KJV… And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
This is another nonsense translation,
ME: AGAIN MIKE IT IS NOT I’M AFRAID. YOU ARE READING OTHERS’ NONSENSE!
since Jesus was going to DEATH – not to “paradise”.
POOR Mike!
YOU ARE STILL LIVING ON MILK Mr. Mike
WITH EVERY RESPECT!
YOU CAN READ ABOUT IT IN THE NEXT POST OF COURSE
A NOVEL!
A TRUE NOVEL Mr. Mike I’M AFRAID
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
Here it comes the NOVEL
DO WHAT YOU LIKE!
MY INTEREST IS THE TRUTH!
You: Another famous example is Luke 23:43…
KJV… And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
This is another nonsense translation,
ME: AGAIN MIKE IT IS NOT I’M AFRAID. YOU ARE READING OTHERS’ NONSENSE!
since Jesus was going to DEATH – not to “paradise”.
But if you move the comma from after “you” to after “today”, then you get the following very sensible translation:
NO Mike, NOT SENSIBLE, THAT ACCORDING TO JESUS IS PURE CORRUPTION!
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”
The scripture means that Jesus is telling him the thing today –
not that Jesus and the thief were both going to paradise on that very day.
THE ABOVE MR. Mike AGAIN:
IT’S PURE TRUTH!
ANOTHER NOVEL!
WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!
IT’S YOUR PIGEON!
You: since Jesus was going to DEATH – not to “paradise”.
Mike the word DEATH above written in block capitals, for you IT means THAT JESUS
SIMPLY ONLY DIED!
DON’T TELL ME THAT YOU DON’T KNOW THAT JESUS ON HIS DEATH GLORIFIED!
Read! John12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.
John 13:3Knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he came from God, and goeth to God;
The above two verses confirm that Jesus, even before He died, WAS GIVEN ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS! CAN YOU TELL ME WHY! NO, YOU DON’T I’M AFRAID, SINCE YOU RELY ON
CARNAL-MINDED SCHOLARS!
More scriptures:
Hebrews 2:14 Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner hath been partaker of the same:
that, through death,
he might destroy him who had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani?
that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
NOW DID YOU GET THAT Mr. Mike?
I’LL MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU, THANKS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO GAVE ME LIGHT!
JESUS WAS GIVEN FULL POWER BEFORE HE DIES FROM THE FATHER, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT SATAN’S DIRECT ENCOUNTER WAS NOT AGAINST THE FATHER SINCE IT WAS REGARDING THE POWER OF DEATH! THE FATHER CANNOT JUSTIFY HIMSELF THROUGH DEATH!
THE FACT THAT IN MATTHEW ABOVE, THE FATHER LEFT JESUS, JUST BEFORE SATAN WAS SUPPOSED TO COME TO TAKE JESUS’ SOUL TO HELL, AS A CRIMINAL!
THE MAIN REASON LUCIFER REBELLED IN HEAVEN, KNOWING THAT HIS DIRECT ENCOUNTER WAS AGAINST
A DIVINE MAN!
IN Hebrews 2:14 IT CLEARLY SAYS ……that, through death, he might destroy him…..THE DEVIL!
THUS JESUS DID NOT JUST DIE,
BUT DESTROYED THE DEVIL AND GLORIFIED
IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE!
READ: And Jesus crying out with a loud voice, said: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And saying this,
he gave up the ghost.
READING THE ABOVE, JESUS’ SOUL, THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE, LEFT JESUS BODY “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’HUMAN NATURE!
GLORIFIED BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH ONE SUBSTANCE! John13:31-32, Acts 20:28 Attention Mike Please:
WHILE SATAN REMAINED LOCKED DEAD IN JESUS’ DEAD BODY Mr. Mike! AT LEAST TILL JESUS’BODY RESURRECTED. HIS ONLY HOPE!
ONLY IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME OF JESUS’ UNIQUE DEATH’, SATAN WAS CONVINCED
THAT JESUS WAS DIVINE!
Read:
1Corinthians 2:6 6Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect:
NOT THE WISDOM OF THIS WORLD (THE SCHOLARS)
neither of the princes of this world that come to nought;
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world,
Here it comes Mr. Mike! CHEW AND SWOLLOW THE TRUTH!
SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD!
unto our glory :
8Which none of the princes of this world knew;
for if they had known it, they would never have crucified
the Lord of glory.
WHAT IS THIS GLORY? WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED ON JESUS’DEATH/GLORY?
JESUS FROM HIS DEATH, THROUGHOUT THE FORTY DAYS HE REMAINED ON EARTH AND TILL PENTECOST ESTABLISHED HIMSELF AS
THE TRUTH, AND AS THE SOLE SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE, EMBODIED ETERNALLY AT ALL COSTS, IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, AND IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION, Colossians 1:15-20 THE FACT THAT HE RESURRECTED FOR THE FIRST TIME
AUTHENTICALLY OUR BROTHER! JESUS GAVE HIS BODY TO THE HUMAN RACE, ALL IN HIM, THE MAN BORN AGAIN John3:3 FROM THE DEAD/SPIRITUALLY DEAD, THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL BORN AGAIN IN JESUS’BODY
ALL HUMANITY, BOTH GOOD AND EVIL RECREATED ANEW ON JESUS’DEATH, SIMPLY AS SATAN WAS REMOVED AND REMAINED LOCKED DEAD IN JESUS’BODY! Luke 17:20-37
GOD’S KINGDOM CAME, GOD’S WILL WAS ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN! SPIRITUAL!
HENCE THE WORLD Mr. Mike WAS NOT JUST SAVED BUT
THE NEW PARADISE.
WELL ASSERTED BY JESUS BY HIS OWN WORDS!
HUMANS WERE PURIFIED BY JESUS’OWN BLOOD AND MORE HOLY THAN ADAM AND EVE WERE ON THEIR CREATION!
UNAWARE OF, THEY WERE SIMPLY TEMPLES OF GOD!
PINPOINTED OUT BY JESUS’ OWN WORDS!
FORGIVE THEM FATHER FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!
FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN WORK!
IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE TO ALL OF HIS WORK!
ON JESUS DEATH: Mike,
the thief’ was not AN EXCEPTION!
And while he was still alive, the fact that the soldiers smashed his knees, while JESUS was
BOTH DEAD AND GLORIFIED,
he felt nothing AT ALL, in FULL ecstasy, by God’s grace he SAW and EXPERIENCED
GOD’S KINGDOM ON EARTH, OR MORE PRECISE
THE NEW PARADISE, thus
The thief was
WITH JESUS IN PARADISE,
that same day, on that same moment on the cross!
Both in his soul and in front of his eyes.
HE SAW JESUS GLORIFIED IN HIS KINGDOM Predicted by Jesus in
Mark 9:1 Amen, I say to you, that there are some of them that stand here, who shall not taste death, till they see the kingdom of God coming in power.
You: Anyway, I don’t necessarily mind that most of what you’ve been bringing up lately has nothing whatsoever to do with this fact that you can’t honestly deny:
Yahweh Himself included the very creation of the heaven and earth WITHIN the six days of creation.
THAT’S YOUR CARNAL MINDED UNDERSTANDING Mike I’m afraid!
READ THE ARTICLE BY Frank W. Nelte
January 2009 ENTITLED
Understanding Genesis 1:1-2 Correctly
https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=172
I AM WAITING FOR YOUR COMMENTS!
I don’t mind because it has been giving me a chance to exercise my scriptural muscles
WHICH ARE STILL SUBJECT TO MILK
IF I WERE YOU START ON MEAT!
BY READING MY NOVELS WHICH CAME FROM ABOVE!
and teach you some things you obviously didn’t know.
NO Mike with every respect you didn’t teach me anything at all till now
KEEP ON TRYING!
So keep them coming. Just make sure they are in short posts.
READ YOUR POST MIKE, AND COUNT THE WORDS, PLUS THAT IF YOU WERE TO WRITE THEM IN BLOCK CAPITALS AND IN THE WAY I WRITE THEM, YOU WILL BE IN THE POSITION TO REALIZE HOW SHORT YOUR POSTS ARE!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Beran,
YOU: Carmel, Gene,
You have no reason to doubt the FACT” that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days as we know them (i.e. 24-hour days). (Exodus 20:11 and 31:17)
The hypothesis That The earth would have already had an existence (a beginning and an end) which would have gone wrong and therefore God sees himself obliged to retype it to make it livable for the beings he proposes to create. IS not supported by the Bible.
According to the King James Bible
which is the best bible,
the earth was “shapeless” (tohu) and empty, desert (bohu)
formless from what I understand would most certainly mean flat, I mean formless, ie “without hill” or “mountain” visible.
do I make myself understood?Me: the earth was “shapeless” (tohu) and empty, desert (bohu)
MORE THAN YOU YOURSELF UNDERSTOOD SCRIPTURE!
JUST READ THE ABOVE VERSE PLEASE AND REFLECT!
YOU ARE SAYING THAT IN GENESIS 1:2
THE EARTH WAS TOHU AND BOHU!
THE WORD “WAS” SAYS IT ALL!
ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT GOD, WHO COULD PRONOUNCE HIS WORD AND IMMEDIATELY CREATE ALL PERFECT, INITIATED HIS WORK IN A STATE OF TOHU AND BOHU?
ALSO, HOW DID THIS EARTH BECOME SO? OBVIOUS BECAUSE IT PRE-EXISTED BEFORE GENESIS 1:3
IT SAYS THE EARTH WAS! NO?
NOT CREATED BY GOD!
IN GENESIS 1:2 GOD IS NOT THERE AT ALL, NEVER MIND SAYING SOMETHING,
ONLY HIS SPIRIT!
NOW READ ALL GENESIS 1 AND TELL ME HOW MANY TIMES
GOD SAYS HIS WORDS!
I’M WAITING!
IN THE MEANTIME, Berean, FIND ME A SCRIPTURE WHICH USES THE TERM TOHU AND BOHU, OR SIMILAR AND IT IS NOT A REFERENCE TO
A CHAOS!
ALSO:
READ THE ARTICLE BY Frank W. Nelte
January 2009 ENTITLED
Understanding Genesis 1:1-2 Correctly
https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=172
I AM WAITING FOR YOUR COMMENTS!
DON’T KEEP SILENT PLEASE!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel: READ THE ARTICLE BY Frank W. Nelte
January 2009 ENTITLED
Understanding Genesis 1:1-2 Correctly
https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=172
I AM WAITING FOR YOUR COMMENTS!
Okay, I read it. Some of it was good info about the Hebrew and Greek languages. Some of it was common sense stuff, such as the scriptural fact that God’s heavenly sons existed prior to the six day creation event. Some of it was misunderstandings of scripture, such as his conclusion that Jesus (not God) created all things. Some of it showed his dependence on Scientism over the Bible, such as his assertion that we now “know” that we live on a spinning water ball, and therefore earlier translators who didn’t “know” this mistranslated certain texts. And other parts of it were complete fantasy, like a supposed Satanic rebellion that destroyed some imaginary earlier heaven and earth.
Did you (and Gene) notice that Nelte didn’t once mention Exodus 20:11 or 31:17? And his partial quote of Gen 2:2 (to bolster his assertion that the perfect Hebrew tense should be translated as “had created” in Gen 1:1) didn’t include these following words that shut his entire argument down…
Genesis 2:1-2… Thus the heaven and the earth were completed in all their vast array. And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work.
The above, along with Ex 20:11 and 31:17, make it undeniably clear that the heaven, the earth, and everything in them were created during a six day period, and by the seventh day they were completed.
So I can understand why Nelte would omit these scriptural words from his body of work. The question for you (and Gene) is: Do YOU GUYS understand why Nelte would purposely omit these scriptures that are very important to the subject he was actually writing about?
Mike: The only one I know who believes that God is a unity of Yahweh the Father and “Yahweh the Son” (but NOT a “Yahweh the Spirit” third person) is you.
LU: I include the Spirit too, as the united “inner person.” It’s just a matter of semantics.
What does that mean? Does your Godhead have TWO Yahwehs – as you repeatedly teach? Or is the Holy Spirit a THIRD sentient person, ie: “Yahweh the Spirit”?
If the former, then you are likely the only member of your own religion – and definitely the only one I’ve ever known about. In which case, comments like this one you made to me seem disingenuous… “Simply put, we disagree. Many can see it. Sorry you won’t.”
If it is the latter, then you’re just another Trinitarian.
So which is it?
LU: I include the Spirit too, as the united “inner person.” It’s just a matter of semantics.
Kathi, this is why I started a dedicated thread where you would feel obligated to stand and defend your claims. We offer a lot of arguments against your doctrine, but you only seem to address the posts that give you the opportunity to promote even more of your beliefs – without actually defending the beliefs that we have challenged.
For example, just yesterday you implied that Jesus being listed with the Father and distinct from “the brethren” means something significant. So I showed you where Paul and Timothy were listed as distinct from “the brethren”, showing you that your implication is null. NO RESPONSE.
Then I asked you why God is our “Father”, while Jesus is our “brother”, and even offered this… “Kind of strange for the Most High God to be not only both our Father and our Brother – but also a joint heir of an inheritance FROM “God” along with us, don’t you think?” NO RESPONSE.
Then you posted to Adam, trying to convince him to acknowledge Jesus as “Co-Yahweh”, and I asked you why the city of Jerusalem wouldn’t also be “Co-Yahweh” – since the very title that you think names Jesus “Yahweh” is also used for the city of Jerusalem. NO RESPONSE.
I pointed out that Jesus is also called “my servant David” by Yahweh, and asked if that would make him a “Co-David”. NO RESPONSE.
I pointed out that others are addressed as “Yahweh” in many scriptures. You responded… “Yes there are, the Father, the Son and the Spirit.” So then I clarified that I was talking about angelic messengers of Yahweh who are addressed as “Yahweh” throughout the scriptures. NO RESPONSE.
You asked Gene about Jesus saying, “apart from me you can do nothing”, as if it means Jesus is the Most High God or something, but then ignored my post where I pointed out that Jesus also said that HE could do nothing without the Father.
And that was just yesterday. But this is how it’s been going on for years. You prefer to pop into various threads to promote implications that don’t stand up to scrutiny, and then disappear when those implications are scrutinized.
“Well, Jesus must be ‘Co-Yahweh’ because the name Yahweh is in one of his titles!”
“Yeah? Well what about the city of Jeru…”
“I have no time for that… Goodbye!”
😅
There’s got to be a better way. If only there was a thread dedicated to your doctrine where you could boldly show us how it stands up to scrutiny and answer all the hard challenges we present. Hmm…
Case in point, Kathi…
Mike: For example, YOU chose Yahweh the Father as the speaker in Gen 1:26 – and “Yahweh the Son” as the one who actually created mankind in 1:27. So I showed you this…
Deuteronomy 32:6… Is this the way you repay Yahweh, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
This one verse (along with a bunch of other ones) makes it abundantly clear that the “Creator” of mankind is named “Yahweh”, is a “he”, and is our heavenly “Father”.
Not a “son”. Not a “they”. Not a “Yahweh Unity of the Spirit”. Just our heavenly Father named Yahweh – who is a single male person referred to as “he”.
LU: Simply put, we disagree. Many can see it. Sorry you won’t.
What is that? Is that supposed to be you standing and defending your doctrine? A simple claim that many others can see what I can’t?
I’d appreciate it if you’d actually ADDRESS my challenge, Kathi. For example, WHY is Moses under the impression that our Creator is the Father – a single male entity?
WHY doesn’t Moses know that “Yahweh the Son” is our actual Creator, or that God is a “them”, not a “he”?
And I’d appreciate it even more if you’d address it in one of the two threads dedicated to this very subject.
LU……No, the one who dress and pruns is the “vine dresser “, the vine, is the whole thing which includes the branches, the dresser is God, Who owns the vine and it’s branches, and causes it to grow and produce fruit.
Jesus is the Branch which was taken from the rootstock of Jesse and King David, Just as he said he was. “I am the “root” and “offspring” of David”. Question is, LU, do you “truly” believe him?.
Peace and love to you and yours LU………..gene
Carmel: SO I repeat: THEY ARE NOT TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE SAME CONCEPT!
They are talking about the same book of life that was written since the world began.
Revelation 13:8
English Standard Version… and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Berean Study Bible… —all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
New American Standard Bible… written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.
Amplified Bible… written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain
Christian Standard Bible… written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
American Standard Version… written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
Contemporary English Version… written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was killed.
Good News Translation… written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed.
And so on, and so on. The Bibles that have a lamb being continually slaughtered for the last 6000 years are nonsensical mistranslations of the Greek words.
Take it or leave it… it’s your pigeon. 😎
Hi Carmel
Me: the earth was “shapeless” (tohu) and empty, desert (bohu)
MORE THAN YOU YOURSELF UNDERSTOOD SCRIPTURE!
JUST READ THE ABOVE VERSE PLEASE AND REFLECT!
YOU ARE SAYING THAT IN GENESIS 1:2
THE EARTH WAS TOHU AND BOHU!
THE WORD “WAS” SAYS IT ALL!
ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT GOD, WHO COULD PRONOUNCE HIS WORD AND IMMEDIATELY CREATE ALL PERFECT, INITIATED HIS WORK IN A STATE OF TOHU AND BOHU?
YES CARMEL
God created the heavens and the earth IN 6 DAYS.
AND I AM WELL AWARE THAT HE COULD HAVE DONE ALL THIS BY A SINGLE WORD… HE IS CAPABLE OF IT AS WELL AS HIS SON WHO IS THE CREATOR EXECUTING IN COMMUNION WITH THE FATHER.ALSO, HOW DID THIS EARTH BECOME SO? OBVIOUS BECAUSE IT PRE-EXISTED BEFORE GENESIS 1:3
No Carmel, TOHU BOHU. = FLAT, FORMLESS, EMPTY, DESERT ….and more…👇
8414
Tohuw
confusion
Isa 24:10, Isa 34:11, Isa 41:29form
Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23nothing
Job 6:18nought
Isa 29:21, Isa 49:4place
Job 26:7vain
1 Sam 12:21, 1 Sam 12:21, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:19vanity
Isa 40:17, Isa 40:23, Isa 44:9, Isa 59:4waste
Deu 32:10wilderness
Job 12:24, Psa 107:40…..
922
Bohuw
emptiness
Isa 34:11void
Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23IT SAYS THE EARTH WAS! NO?
NOT CREATED BY GOD!
WHY You said That ?
Genesis 1 :1👉In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
God created the heavens and the earth in 6 steps for one reason AND THIS IS A PEDAGOGICAL REASON…
DO YOU SEE THIS CARMEL, IT IS TO DRIVE THE NAIL IN OUR AND OUR HEART THAT: WHEN GOD SAYS A THING, ANNOUNCES A THING, IT ALWAYS ACCOMPLISHES… HIS WORD DOES NOT COME BACK WITHOUT EFFECT…
GOD SAYS AND THE THING IS, EXISTSFor he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and he stood fast. Psalm 33:9
When you have asked for something in my name believe that you have received it and you will see it come to pass said Jesus….👉Mark11:24
THE FAITH OF THE CENTURY, CARMEL
SAY ONLY ONE WORD AND MY SERVANT WILL BE HEALED…In Genesis 1 God wants to show us what He can do in our lives through faith.
IN GENESIS 1:2 GOD IS NOT THERE AT ALL, NEVER MIND SAYING SOMETHING,
ONLY HIS SPIRIT!
NO CARMEL GOD IS HERE WITH HIS SON …HIS SPIRIT FLOW /PROCEED FROM HIM
👇
John 15:[26] But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER , he shall testify of me:
NEVER MIND SAYING SOMETHING,
GOD CAN CREATE “TOO” WITHOUT SPEAKING…
Exemple in v.21
God created the great fishes and all living creatures that move, and which the waters brought forth in abundance according to their kind; he also created every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good.
NOW READ ALL GENESIS 1 AND TELL ME HOW MANY TIMES
GOD SAYS HIS WORDS!
8 TIME
IN THE BIBLE ,IT WRITTEN
IN THE BIGINNING, GOD CREATED HEAVEN AND EARTH.
SPEP BY STEP
Step ONE : tohuw bohuw + light
Step two: ……..
Step three: ……
Etc…….
I’M WAITING!
IN THE MEANTIME, Berean, FIND ME A SCRIPTURE WHICH USES THE TERM TOHU AND BOHU, OR SIMILAR AND IT IS NOT A REFERENCE TO
A CHAOS!
Isa 45:19
I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
vanity
Isa 40:17, Isa 40:23, Isa 44:9, Isa 59:4Isa 44:9,
They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
ALSO:
READ THE ARTICLE BY Frank W. Nelte
January 2009 ENTITLED
Understanding Genesis 1:1-2 Correctly
https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=172
I AM WAITING FOR YOUR COMMENTS!
lots of interesting stuff,….but to say that a Chaos Earth preceded our current Earth is to go too far.
ALL IMPORTANT EVENTS IN THE BIBLE, PAST OR FUTURE ARE REPORTED…
IF THERE HAD BEEN A PRECEDENT ON OUR EARTH, GOD WOULD HAVE INDICATED IT TO US…IN A VERY CLEAR WAY.DON’T KEEP SILENT PLEASE!
To All…….the stumbling block is the word (WAS) that is used there, “and the earth was”. That word “was”, in the original Hebrew should be , (became) or (came to be). Exactly as eplained , it should read, the earth “became ” to-hu and bo-hu, coruppted and void.
Where does it say God created everything “perfect” at. Because God said it was good or functional, it dosen’t say it is or ever was perfect. As I have said the original text does lend itself to a past existence of this earth, in a time before It was regenerated and filled with this present animal species that now exist in it.
Peace and love to you all and yours. ………gene
Hi Mike,
Carmel: SO I repeat: THEY ARE NOT TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE SAME CONCEPT!
They are talking about the same book of life that was written since the world began.Revelation 13:8
English Standard Version… and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Berean Study Bible… —all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
New American Standard Bible… written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered. (perfect tense a reference to the past which continues to the future)
Amplified Bible… written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb
who has been slain (perfect tense……)
Christian Standard Bible… written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
American Standard Version… written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that
hath been slain. (perfect tense……)
Contemporary English Version… written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was killed.
Good News Translation… written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed.
You: And so on, and so on.
ME: WAIT KEEP ON READING PLEASE:
THE TWO MOST TRUSTED BIBLES!
ME: KJV. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
DRB. And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.
AND
OJB .And all the ones dwelling on ha’aretz (the earth) will worship the Chayyah (Beast, Anti-Moshiach), all the ones whose name has not been written in the Sefer HaChayyim of the SEH (Lamb, SHEMOT 12:3; YESHAYAH 53:7, Moshiach)
having been slain from lifnei hivvased tevel (before the foundation of the world).
YOU: The Bibles that have a lamb being continually slaughtered for the last 6000 years are nonsensical mistranslations of the Greek words.
Mike YOU HAVE A CLEAR PICTURE OF WHO THESE BIBLES ARE, AND ALSO ACCORDING TO YOU THEY HAVE
A NONSENSICAL MISTRANSLATION……..
ONLY IN THE LITERAL SENSE Mike, and God’s word is MORE SPIRITUAL THAN LITERAL!
NOW I AM NOT GOING TO WRITE A NOVEL, BUT JUST REFLECT ON THE WORDS HEREUNDER, USED IN REVELATION 13:8 BY WHICH I AM GOING
TO KILL TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE. This is not from my own perception but from
here: http://www.amatteroftruth.com
…..FROM the FOUNDATION of the WORLD.”
The Greek word that is translated as FROM also means AFTER.
Here is what the concordance says
apo’
A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): – (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
The LITERAL translation says from the down casting or the disruption or the system speaking of the rulership of the world. In other words, the foundation of the world here is speaking of the DETHRONING of Lucifer from his throne of ruling over the world system of the Luciferian age before mankind was ever created.
So the whole Bible is speaking of the RESTORATION of the OLD earth and the crowning of a NEW King.
The Greek word that is translated as FOUNDATION also means DEPOSITION or to DEPOSE.
Here is what the concordance says.
katabolē
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: – conceive, foundation.
The word depose means to overthrow, to unseat, to DETHRONE, to remove, and to displace.
This Greek word “katabole” is from the Greek word “kataballo” Strongs #2598 and here is its meaning.
kataballō
From G2596 and G906; to throw down: – cast down, lay.
God did not need a PLAN of SALVATION until AFTER the fall of Lucifer and the fallen angels who rebelled to make war with God. So then,
it was AFTER the destruction of the old earth that occurred DURING the WAR between God and his angels and Lucifer and his angels.
A clear reference to the state of Genesis 1:2.
And when you study the meaning of the Greek word translated as WORLD, it carries the meaning of TENDING TO earth. In other words, Lucifer, the one tending to the old earth, Ezekiel 28:13-18, was found unworthy to continue to have rule over the earth, so God DETHRONED Lucifer.
The writers of the New Testament used a DIFFERENT Greek word when referring to a FOUNDATION as the BEGINNING of something that is being built.
Here is what the concordance says concerning this other Greek word translated as foundation.
“G2310
θεμέλιος
themelios
From a derivative of G5087; something put down, that is, a substruction (of a building, etc.), (literally or figuratively): – foundation.
Total KJV occurrences: 16
It is used 16 times and never as the foundation of the WORLD. But it is used one time when speaking of Yahweh creating the EARTH in Hebrews 1:10 where the writer of Hebrews is quoting Psalm 102:26. My point is that it was God’s PLAN of SALVATION that was ordained or CHOSEN AFTER the earth became void and BEFORE God created mankind a little lower and INFERIOR to his previous creation the angels.
Now to Enoch:
Enoch’s ascension to heaven
Concerning Enoch’s dream|
At that time he said, When 165 years were complete for me, I fathered my son Methusala; and after that I lived 200 years. I completed all the years of my life, 365 years. •In the first month, on the assigned day of the first month, I was in my house alone.
And I lay on my bad sleeping. •And, while I slept, a great distress entered my heart, and I was weeping with my eyes in a dream. And I could not figure out what this distress might be, |nor| what might be happening to me.
•Then two huge men appeared to me, the like of which I had never seen on earth.
(CREATURES/MEN OF GENESIS 1:1 PERFECT CREATION, HAD LUMINOUS BODIES, AND THE SUN AND OUR GALAXY WERE NEVER AS WE KNOW THEM FROM GENESIS 1:16 )
Their faces were like the shining sun; their eyes were like burning lamps; from their mouths fire was coming fort ; their clothing was various singing; their wings were more glistening than gold; their hands were whiter than snow.
And they stood at the head of my bed and called me by my name. Then I awake from my sleep,
and saw those men, standing in front of me, in actuality.
Take it or leave it… it’s your pigeon.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Gene
To All…….the stumbling block is the word (WAS) that is used there, “and the earth was”. That word “was”, in the original Hebrew should be , (became) or (came to be). Exactly as eplained , it should read, the earth “became ” to-hu and bo-hu, coruppted and void.
Where does it say God created everything “perfect” at. Because God said it was good or functional, it dosen’t say it is or ever was perfect. As I have said the original text does lend itself to a past existence of this earth, in a time before It was regenerated and filled with this present animal species that now exist in it.
Me
WHAT YOU SAY IS JUST ONE MORE LIE. IT IS WITHOUT BIBLICAL SCRIPTURAL BASIS.
IF THERE HAD BEEN AN EARTH IN THE DISTANT PAST, FALL INTO CHAOS, GOD WOULD HAVE LET US KNOW THROUGH HIS PROPHETS, THAT IS A CERTAINTY; BUT THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE NO PROPHET HAS EVER SPOKEN OF A LAND FALLING INTO CHAOS.FURTHER, TOHUW BOHUW IN THE CONTEXT OF GENESIS 1 MEANS
SHAPELESS {HILL, MOUNTAIN}, DESERT, WITHOUT VEGETATION… WITHOUT ANIMALS, ETC
IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT THE FIRST STAGE OF THE CREATION OF THE EARTH IS AS DESCRIBED IN VERSE 2.
AND GOD BRINGS THE LIGHT THAT HE CALLS GOOD, AND SEPARATES THE DARKNESS FROM THE LIGHT, AND THIS IS THE FIRST DAY.IF GOD HAD TO INTERVENE IN A CHAOS SITUATION, HE WOULD HAVE USED FIRE TO PURIFY THE SO-CALLED EARTH FALL INTO CHAOS, AS HE WILL DO FOR OUR EARTH, WHICH WAS ANNOUNCED BY THE PROPHETS.
GOD BLESS
Mike,
I just have a tiny amount of time to spend here due to my college work and family time. I might have more time for a dedicated thread after the semester, middle of May. I would be willing to consider it then. For now, there are too many questions to give attention to. Can you give me just one in the next few minutes and hopefully I can take the time to answer it? Pick one.
Gene, you are taking the branch from one story and placing it into a completely different story. Stay in context and you will see that the vine is distinct from the branches. The vine supplies the branches so they can bear fruit. If they, someone other than the vine, does not bear fruit, it gets cut off and burnt. Jesus is the vine that supplies the branches with what they need. The vine supplies, the branches receive. The vine is Jesus, the branches that come off of the vine are what we are. Do you have anyone at home that can sit down with you and help you understand the story or a pastor to go to?
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