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LU: HN would be a more intelligent place to discuss things regarding faith if this concept was not continually mis-understood by Proclaimer, Mike, and you, Gene and some others.
I created a new thread for the sole purpose of letting you explain our “misunderstandings” to us. You balked because it was a public thread. So then you created your own private thread to discuss your doctrine with me, and you bailed on that one too.
Doesn’t sound like you REALLY want to correct our “misunderstandings” in any relevant way – or allow us to delve into your doctrine to see if it stands up to scrutiny. Sounds to me like you prefer popping in to various threads to drop an uncontested snippet here and an unscriptural claim there.
Kathi, your doctrine requires you to pick and choose which of two different “Yahwehs” are speaking or acting every single time the scriptures say Yahweh/God said or did something. And everyone who joins your religion gets to make their own choice for each scripture. I could say it was “Yahweh the Son” doing this one thing, and you could believe it was Yahweh the Father. There is no clarity on the matter. It’s anybody’s guess as to which one of us is correct.
For example, YOU chose Yahweh the Father as the speaker in Gen 1:26 – and “Yahweh the Son” as the one who actually created mankind in 1:27. So I showed you this…
Deuteronomy 32:6… Is this the way you repay Yahweh, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
This one verse (along with a bunch of other ones) makes it abundantly clear that the “Creator” of mankind is named “Yahweh”, is a “he”, and is our heavenly “Father”.
Not a “son”. Not a “they”. Not a “Yahweh Unity of the Spirit”. Just our heavenly Father named Yahweh – who is a single male person referred to as “he”.
Berean: Who(Jesus), being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God…
That’s a bad translation, Berean. Try this one…
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped…
Gene: The language of the text in Gen 1:1&2, does lend itsef to a past existence, Mike.
Not even a chance, Gene. Read…
Mark 10:6… But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female.
Will you now argue that by “the beginning of creation”, Jesus really meant, “14 billion years after the beginning of creation”?
Gene: Mike……We’re not talking about other places in scriptures, we are talking about the language used in Gen 1v1&2…
Really Gene? So we should just reject the words of Yahweh, who included the very CREATION of the heaven and earth within the six days of creation? And we should reject the words of Jesus above too?
Not even a chance, Gene.
Mike
According to your knowledge what are the beings or the being
generated /made(ginomai) by God so much better than angels?Hi Berean,
Read that verse again with the scriptural word “messengers”, as it was written…
Hebrews 1:4 Young’s Literal Translation
…having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.Knowing that Jesus is a messenger and prophet of his and our God – so much so that he’s literally called “the Word of God” – how do you understand that teaching when it is rendered properly?
I understand it to mean that Jesus became as much better than the OTHER messengers as the name his God gave him was better than theirs. As another example…
2 Kings 25:28
NIV… gave him a seat of honor higher than those of the other kings who were with him
New Living Translation… gave him a higher place than all the other exiled kings in Babylon.
Berean Study Bible… the other kings who were with him
Amplified Bible… the throne of the [other] kings
Contemporary English Version… the other kings held prisoner there.
The word “other” isn’t actually in the Hebrew text, Berean. But they are talking about King Jehoiachin, and explaining how he was treated better than the kings who were with him in exile. But if you say Jehoiachin was treated better than “the kings who were with him”, it sort of implies that he wasn’t a king himself. That’s why many translators add the word “other” to make it clear that they are talking about one king, and the OTHER kings he was with.
It is the same with Heb 1:4. Jesus is one messenger, and has inherited a better name than the OTHER messengers from his and our God, Yahweh.
John1:1Gene: The language of the text in Gen 1:1&2, does lend itsef to a past existence, Mike.
You: Not even a chance, Gene. Read…
Mark 10:6… But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female.
You: Will you now argue that by “the beginning of creation”, Jesus really meant, “14 billion years after the beginning of creation”?
John: 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
ME: Mike in the above scriptures, John mentioned TWO BEGINNINGS!
Is John1:1 a reference to Genesis 1:1?
Is John1:2 a reference to Genesis 1:3?
In the meantime, I’ve just met with an article that is too long to post and it is entitled
Understanding Genesis 1:1-2 Correctly by
Frank W. Nelte
January 2009
https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=172
Have a go and read this article please for the sake of the truth of which we ALL ARE AFTER.
I would like to hear your comments about it!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
John1:1 Gene: The language of the text in Gen 1:1&2, does lend itsef to a past existence, Mike.
You: Not even a chance, Gene. Read…
Mark 10:6… But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female.
You: Will you now argue that by “the beginning of creation”, Jesus really meant, “14 billion years after the beginning of creation”?
Hi Mike,
Are you ready to hear my views, IF I SAY
YES,
Jesus really meant, “14 billion years after the beginning of creation”?
PRECISELY IN
GENESIS 1:1
JUST TO GIVE YOU A HINT!
THAT REFERENCE Mike, is to
THE MORNING STARS, MALE AND FEMALE ANDROGYNOUS, BOTH IN
LUCIFER!
NEVERTHELESS: THE FIRST-EVER DIVORCE OCCURRED ALSO IN HEAVEN!
THEN GOD INITIATED A NEW PROCESS FROM SCRATCH IN ORDER TO BECOME IN THE TRUTH
IN THE IMAGE OF GOD AND LIKENESS, MALE AND FEMALE ANDROGYNOUS!
Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: (ANDROGYNOUS) and let HIM have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. 27And God created man to his own image:
to the image of God he created him:
male and female he created them.
TWO IN ONE!
EMBODIED IN ADAM/ A NEW LUCIFER
Isaiah 45:4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have made a likeness of thee, and thou hast not known me.
5I am the Lord, and there is none else: there is no God, besides me: I girded thee, and thou hast not known me:
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike…….What you are quoting is talking about the creation of man, not the whole creation itself. Your grabbing straws , scriptures plainly show man was not the first thing God created, Scripture say’s “In the (beginning) God created the (heaven) and the earth. you must establish what “beginning” it is speaking of, was it the beginning of the whole universe and everything in it, or was he talking about the beginning of this (present earth condition) ?, I believe the language in Genesis 1v1&2 , does lend itself to the possibility of a prexisting universe, and even a preexisting earth also.
Please notice the definite article there, so that does tie it to a (paticular) beginning, of the universe, then verse 2 shows that the earth which prexisted became (to-ho and bo-ho,), corrupted and void, and God rgenerated THIS EARTH, from that state of existence, is more in line with what scripture is saying. IMO
In order for you to win your argument you have to limit the earth and the universe to just a few thousand years. But solid science does prove things are much, much older then just a few thousand years, thats just the way i see it, Mike
peace and love to you and yours Mike. ………gene
Hi Mike
Thanks Mike for your response(s)
On Christ versus the angels
Paul in Hebrews 1 makes a clear difference between Christ and angels (gods, spirits, messengers)
He says of Christ: “Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.”
You say:
It is the same with Heb 1:4. Jesus is one messenger, and has inherited a better name than the OTHER messengers from his and our God, Yahweh.The truth is that Jesus was made, (generated, “ginomai”) so much better than the angels(not the OTHER angels)
Putting the word “OTHER” changes the whole meaning.Angels are creatures of God whom we are not to WORSHIP, whereas Christ in whom dwells all THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHED BODILY IS WORTHY TO BE WORSHIPED.Amen!
👇
REV.22:8 👉 ANGEL(S)
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I FELL DOWN TO WORSHIP BEFORE THE FEET OF THE ANGEL which shewed me these things.
[9] Then saith he unto me, SEE THOU DO IT NOT: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: WORSHIP GOD.👇
HEBREWS1 👉 CHRIST[6] And again, when he bringseth in the firstbegotten into the world, he(God) saith, And LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.
Mike, you believe that Christ (in the beginning) is a creature, but he is not a creature, he is the ONLY divine SON OF GOD BEGOTTEN WHO WAS WITH GOD AND WHO WAS GOD (not a god) IN THE BEGINNING.
THROUGH/BY THIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, GOD THE FATHER HAS CREATED EVERYTHING. (Hebrews1-John 1-Colossians1…)
God bless
LU: HN would be a more intelligent place to discuss things regarding faith if this concept was not continually mis-understood by Proclaimer, Mike, and you, Gene and some others.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
I put the Trinity and derivatives into this context. Because using the spirit of man to form God into something you imagine with your own mind is how you make an idol. The truth should come from God as to who he is or from a faithful servant whom speaks for God under inspiration.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I created a new thread for the sole purpose of letting you explain our “misunderstandings” to us. You balked because it was a public thread. So then you created your own private thread to discuss your doctrine with me, and you bailed on that one too.
Doesn’t sound like you REALLY want to correct our “misunderstandings” in any relevant way – or allow us to delve into your doctrine to see if it stands up to scrutiny. Sounds to me like you prefer popping in to various threads to drop an uncontested snippet here and an unscriptural claim there.
Is this true LU? Mike may be wrong in some even many things, but at least he has the character to defend what he believes and sit on the Hot Seat.
Hi Mike,
You: You are using a very nonsensical mistranslation of the verse. I’ll let the 25 translators of the NET Bible explain it to you…
Revelation 13:8 NET ©
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.Footnote: The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed”,
but it is more likely
ME: THE ABOVE PHRASE IS ENOUGH FOR ME!
that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.
NET. 17:8 The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth – all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world– will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.
THERE IT IS Mike!
As you can read, both verses have different concepts.
IN THE ABOVE, THE PHRASE “OF THE LAMB SLAIN“….. IS MISSING!
Now go read Rev 17:8 which contains the same phrase,
WITH THE SAME ARGUMENT Mike, Genesis 1:2, Jeremiah 4: 23-28 and Isaiah 34:11, also use the same words and terminology! OK?
You: and let us know if you can refute what these scholars have just taught you about your poor mistranslation.
Me: AND HOW!
Now read these translations hereunder, THERE ‘S NO AMBIGUITY AT ALL!
KJV. Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in
the book of life OF THE LAMB slain from the foundation of the world.
DRB.13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.
ERV. And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain from the foundation of the world.
Young’s Literal Translation
And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;You: Carmel, in Ex 20:11 and 31:17, Yahweh Himself includes the very CREATION of heaven and earth WITHIN the six days of creation.
ME: THAT’S ONLY ACCORDING TO YOU!
The Bible leaves NO room for Gen 1 to be talking about a heaven and earth that are different from the ones that were created within the six day period that ended with the creation of Adam and Eve.
YES Mike,
PROVE BY SCRIPTURE THAT THE WORDS
“VOID AND EMPTY” IN GENESIS 1:2 ARE USED IN OTHER VERSES IN SCRIPTURE AND ARE NOT REFERENCES TO A CHAOS, CONFUSION AND DESOLATE STATE!
Your argument has never had any merit, and is thoroughly debunked by Yahweh Himself. End of story.
YOU BET IT’S END OF STORY!
READ THIS ARTICLE BY
Frank W. Nelte
January 2009 ENTITLED
Understanding Genesis 1:1-2 Correctly
https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=172
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel……What Frank Nelte said He learned from Herbet Armstrong, .i.e, “wwcog”, 40 years ago. I believe also that Genesis 1v1&2 is saying and meaning that, “in the beginning” (of the whole universe, including the heavens and the earth), God the Father created it, And that verse 2, is saying that the earth became or (came to be), to-hu and bo-hu , after it was originally created. ……Just as I, Proclaimer and you, seem to be saying, and explaining , the original language certainly lends itself to that understanding, of a prexisting earth, before the beginning of this present creation, mentioned in the rest of Genesis, After verse 1 and 2 of Gen 1
Mike while I don’t agree with what Frank Nelte, says about Jesus creating everything, I do believe his (Herbert Amstrong) explanation of the orginal textual meanings, he gave in regard to Gen 1:1&2. is correct. Why not go read his article and see what you think. and then come back and tell us brother. It is very thourely written. IMO
Peace and love to you all………..gene
Carmel, Gene,
You have no reason to doubt the FACT” that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days as we know them (i.e. 24-hour days). (Exodus 20:11 and 31:17)
The hypothesis That 👉 The earth would have already had an existence (a beginning and an end) which would have gone wrong and therefore God sees himself obliged to retype it to make it livable for the beings he proposes to create.👈 IS not supported by the Bible.
According to the King James Bible
which is the best bible,
the earth was “shapeless” (tohu) and empty, desert (bohu)
formless from what I understand would most certainly mean flat, I mean formless, ie “without hill” or “mountain” visible.
do I make myself understood?So this “formless” and empty” is not surprising, because we are in the first phase of the creation of the heavens and the earth.
In fact, we have a ball of earth enveloped in waters (that’s how I see it)
Something hard in the center (earth and bedrock) wrapped in soft (waters)
As for the words: In the beginning….
It is simply the beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth. And this hints that our heavens and our earth are not so old as many think. (about 6000 years old).….be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.(Mathew 10:16)
Gene
You asked: LU……Whose “word” came to be the flesh man Jesus?
YHVH’s Word. The Word of YHVH the same one that appeared to Samuel here:
1 Samuel 3 21And the LORD appeared again at Shiloh, because the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
That same “Word of the LORD” that appeared to Samuel was in the beginning with God and was the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father.
Proclaimer,
You asked: Is this true LU? Mike may be wrong in some even many things, but at least he has the character to defend what he believes and sit on the Hot Seat.
I was never on the Hot Seat with Mike. He wanted to make a thread devoted to what I believe about the YHVH Unity and I told him that I would discuss it in a one on one discussion mainly so I could follow the discussion since it wouldn’t have so many “voices”. Before it got off the ground, I asked him to admit to many false accusations which he didn’t agree with and ended up lying to me about some things and I told him that we weren’t going to be able to discuss anything until he faced those false allocations he made about me. I told him that I would be happy to discuss after he faced them but he denies them. I’m not interested in playing games. You can read the discussion yourself.
Do you have a question for me that I have not addressed?
Proclaimer:
You said: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Do you agree that this is just as true according to the NASP1995:
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and the only begotten God, Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Mike,
You said: Not a “son”. Not a “they”. Not a “Yahweh Unity of the Spirit”. Just our heavenly Father named Yahweh – who is a single male person referred to as “he”.
Simply put, we disagree. Many can see it. Sorry you won’t.
LU……Do you “truly”believe Jesus ? , then listen to him, “hear “O” ISREAL, the LORD (YEHEOVAH ) “OUR” God , is “ONE” LORD” , Jesus said that , and the word “OUR” is all inclusive and always includes the person speaking .
Do you “truly ” Believe Jesus ? , then listen to him, “I am going to my Father and your Father, my God, and your God”. Jesus said that LU , NOT ME. I just believe him.
Do you “truly ” Believe Jesus? , then listen to him, “this is eternal life that they might know “YOU” THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD “AND”, Jesus who “YOU” have sent” Jesus said that , not me. Did you notice the words “YOU” there that some one else is being expressed there, not the one speaking.
Do you “truly” believe Jesus LU, then listen to him, PRAY LIKE THIS, “OUR” FATHER who is in heaven, “your” kingdom come “your” will be done on earth, as it is in heaven , gives “US” this day our daily bread, forgive us Our sins as we forgive those who traspass against us, let us not be tempted, but deliver from the evil, for “YOURS” is the kingdom and the power for ever. Did you notice the words , “OUR”, and “YOUR” , “our” is a all inclusive word, meaning the one speaking it is included, and the word, “YOUR” alway means referencing someone else other then the one speaking .
Do you “truly” believe Jesus, LU ? then listen to him, “the words I am telling you are “Not” MY WORDS, but the “WORDS” of him who sent me” . you either believe Jesus or not. No scripture takes away from those words, if what you say dosen’t fit those clear scriptures, then there simply not true , you seem to never have come to that understanding of that truth yet.
Do you truly believe this, what the Apostle Paul said, , “But unto us there is but “ONE” God, and “one” mediator between God and men, the “MAN” Jesus Christ .
JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD in this sense, he is the flesh man, that God’s prophetic word spoken to us through the prophets, came to pass, that was, when the “FLESH MAN” Jesus came into his existence. THAT EVENT WAS God the Father’s “WORD”, spoken to us, through the Prophets being “FULLFILLED.”
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Hi Gene, yes, Jesus was a man but also more than a man at the same time. You would be wise to seek the matter out with an open heart. Many can see it. You’re misunderstanding of “dia” is not helping lead you towards truth, for starters.
Hi Adam, did you answer my last question to you? If so, would you mind showing me your response? Thanks.
Here was my post to you:
It is refreshing that you also see that the NT is declaring Jesus as a “Co-person with God in all activities starting from the first creation and ending with new creation mainly based on the NT”, as you say.
Would you say that the blanks could have also said that Jesus was a Co-Yahweh with God or something similar to that?
Be blessed, LU
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