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Proclaimer: Genesis doesn’t have to disagree with much of science, particularly astronomy, geology, etc.
What are you talking about? Genesis doesn’t disagree with ANY science, because true science actually supports a six day creation 6000 years ago and a worldwide flood 4500 years ago.
Proclaimer: But you force it to disagree because you do not believe in science.
Really? Genesis says the sun was created after the earth – and even after vegetation covered the earth. Of course that doesn’t disagree with SCIENCE – but it dang sure disagrees with the Scientism to which you subscribe.
Simply reading the words of Genesis, in which God Himself conveyed the creation account to His human children, is not me “forcing” Genesis to disagree with Scientism. The words as they are written do that all by themselves – without any help from you, me, or anyone else.
Proclaimer: Science shows us an amazing universe that God created… The distances and times are beyond you mind.
Are they? Carmel and I were briefly discussing Isaiah 14 earlier today, and I’d like your input.
Isaiah 14:12-13… How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
What is this “Mount Zaphon”, whose height extends “above the stars of God”? It’s the Hebrew word for “north”, and many translations say, “above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north”.
I’m just wondering if there really is (or used to be) a mountain in the north whose peak is above the stars. Could this be the very high mountain where Satan took Jesus to show him all the kingdoms of the world?
Curious to find out what you think, and how you think such a mountain fits into a universe with distances that are “beyond my mind”. Where exactly would “above the stars” be in the helical model? Would there be a mountain there? And why would Lucifer want to be in such a place, which has got to be “distances beyond my mind” away from the earth? 🤔
Me: GOD TRANSFORMED HIMSELF AND BECAME LIGHT AND COVERED THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE! “
You: I don’t believe God told you that…
Where did you read that in the bible?Me what does the scriptures hereunder say?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light,
and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you,
that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
Matthew 28:3 And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
Rev.22:5 And night shall be no more: and they shall not need the light of the lamp, nor the light of the sun,
because the Lord God shall enlighten them, and they shall reign forever and ever.
As you can read above, at the very end all creatures would have an enlightened body as originally had before the rebellion of Lucifer in the first creation of Genesis 1:1 which was in full light and all heavenly hosts had luminous bodies!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel
Excuse me Carmel, but you didn’t give the verse that says that God transformed Himself…
you say: GOD TRANSFORMED HIMSELF AND BECAME LIGHT AND COVERED THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE! “
In the Bible it is written:
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.It is true that in God there is no darkness, HE IS LIGHT.
Adam and Eve before they sined were naked and not ashamed (Gen.2:25)
Something else I read this morning:
Isaiah 51:4 My people, pay attention! My nation, listen to me! For the law will come out of me, and I will establish my law to be the light of the peoples. (Isaiah 51.4)To finish:
Rom.3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Exodus 31:17
….It is a sign(Sabbath’s day) between me and the children of Israel for ever: for IN SIX DAYS the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.God bless
Carmel and Mike…….when you create something you bring it forth from nothing, when you make something you make it from something that exists. God made the earth and all things therein. He took existing things and made something from them. God may have made this earth over many times, as fossil findingso show, and destroyed it with water and started over again, yes there may have been all kind of creatures roaming this earth before man was ever made on it, and those creatures are now extinct DUE TO PREVIOUS FLOODING EVENTS. What Genesis give us is this present earth as made by God ,THIS TIME, that does not exclude other cycle periods this earth could have experience before this present period of time.
Mike…….Do you know there is no Hebrew word for “beginning”, it should be read “SUMMIT” , just like the word “good”, should be read as “funictional”, God saw that it was “functional”. So it appears that God made everything out of something that existed before, even mankind and all physical creatures were ‘made” out of things that existed before they were actually made. I do not believe this earth was created out of thin air,in an instant, or from nothing , I believe every thing physical, has an orgin of somekind , No matter what it is.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Gene
“So it appears that God made everything out of something that existed before, even mankind and all physical creatures were ‘made” out of things that existed before they were actually made.”
Me
…”out of things that existed before….”
But who made the things that existed before?
Good insight gene.
Clearly we have evidence of other epochs in the past. And are told in the Bible about other ages (worlds to come).
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Thank you for debating me on this Mike. I believe I have enough information now to produce a writing about Genesis and the beginning of the world.
I find you are just regurgitating the same arguments that have been debunked or have equal alternate interpretations that do not conflict with observation. And you are bringing nothing new to challenge me with now. It’s been a bit of a ride.
You have been useful and so was gadam who forced me to look deeply into the prophecies of Daniel. I will be writing on that subject too.
If it wasn’t for you guys and the Trinitarians, I likely wouldn’t have written as much.
Proclaimer
“You have been useful and so was gadam who also forced me to look deeply into the prophecies of Daniel. I will be writing on that subject too.”
Me
It’s high, high time to have clear ideas
and to know WHO IS WHO.God bless Proclaimer
Hi Berean,
You: Excuse me Carmel, but you didn’t give the verse that says that God transformed Himself…
you say: GOD TRANSFORMED HIMSELF AND BECAME LIGHT AND COVERED THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE! “
In the Bible it is written:
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.Me: I said: what do the scriptures hereunder say?
Isaiah 45:7 I FORM the LIGHT,….
1 John 1:5 …..God IS LIGHT, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
Matthew 28:3 And his appearance was like LIGHTENING,
Rev.22:5 And night shall be no more: and they shall not need the light of the lamp, nor the light of the sun, because
the Lord God shall ENLIGHTEN them,…
John 12:46 I have come into the world AS LIGHT,…
Berean, Now read this please:
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming FIRE.
IF GOD IS SPIRIT,
IF GOD IS FIRE,
IF GOD IS LIGHT
IF JESUS CAME INTO THE WORLD AS LIGHT
GOD CAN NOT BECOME, TRANSFORM HIMSELF INTO LIGHT?
WHEN EVEN SATAN, DARKNESS, CAN TRANSFORM HIMSELF INTO
AN ANGEL OF LIGHT!
HE CAN NOT TRANSFORM HIMSELF INTO THE LIGHT FOR SURE, AS
ONLY GOD IS LIGHT!
Now Just to remind you HEREUNDER are the scriptures that clearly mean that before Genesis 1:1, WHEN GOD WAS ALL BY HIMSELF, God dwelled within
PITCH DARKNESS!
SOMETHING WHICH SCIENCE IS STILL BEWILDERED WITH.
1King 8:12 Then spoke Solomon, The LORD said that
he would dwell in the thick darkness.
Exodus 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto
the thick darkness where God was.
So as you can read from scripture the very first act before ANYTHING CAME INTO EXISTENCE GOD BECAME/TRANSFORM HIMSELF INTO
LIGHT! AND ALSO SAID:
LET BE LIGHT MADE!
MADE NOT CREATED!
TO CREATE ONLY EX-NIHILLO, OUT OF NOTHING!
SO WHEN GOD PRONOUNCED LET BE LIGHT MADE HE DIDN’T CREATE THE LIGHT FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT
HE IS THE LIGHT ITSELF NO?
HE CAN NOT CREATE HIMSELF, SINCE HE EXISTED, HE CAN DOUBLE HIMSELF!, AND BILOCATE HIMSELF AS MUCH AS HE PLEASES FOR SURE! HE IS RICH IN HIS SPIRIT UNFATHOMABLY!
NOW HOW DID THIS LIGHT ORIGINATE THEN?
OBVIOUS, HE SIMPLY EMANATED
HIS ENDLESS SPIRITS!
ORIGINALLY ENCLOSED WITHIN THE PITCH DARKNESS!
BLACKHOLE????
HENCE: OCCURRED AN EXPLOSION
THE BIG BANG!
BY WHICH BANG THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE BECAME
LUMINOUS.
GENESIS 1:1 STARTED! IN FULL LIGHT
IN FULL GOD’S HARMONY AND PERFECTION!
THEN AT A CERTAIN STAGE GOT CORRUPTED AND DELUGED FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME! Genesis 1:2
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
You: The creation of Jesus WAS the beginning of creation… as is clearly taught in Proverbs 8:22. But as anyone can see from the above, you clearly implied that before Gen 1:1, God was on His own.
He was not.
He was with Jesus and the other gods that He created before He created the heaven and the earth.
ME: For God’s sake:
GENESIS 1:1 IT SAYSIN THE PLURAL:
THE HEAVENS…..
WHAT ARE THESE HEAVENS?
THEY WERE CREATED FIRST, THEN THE EARTH NO?
IT CLEARLY SAYS:
GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND
THE EARTH DEFINITELY NOT IN
BOTH IN ONE GO!
YOU: you clearly implied that before Gen 1:1, God was on His own.
He was not.
ME: YES HE WAS AND HOW???
IN PITCH DARKNESS FOR SURE!
DARK MATTER????
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Those gods sang and shouted for joy WHEN the events of Gen 1 occurred.
Hi Carmel
“THEN AT A CERTAIN STAGE GOT CORRUPTED AND DELUGED FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME! Genesis 1:2”
Can you bring really biblical elements on this point, because what you say seems strange to me, as well as what you declare previously on the “light”
God said: Let there be light
There is nothing to add or subtractGod bless
I forgot, God was not alone, but with his Son The Word
John 1:1 “In the beginning WAS “THE WORD” and “THE WORD” was with (the) GOD
and “THE WORD” was GODGod did not say?:
[26] And God said( to His Son), Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Have a good day.
ME: “THEN AT A CERTAIN STAGE GOT CORRUPTED AND DELUGED FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME! Genesis 1:2”
You: Can you bring really biblical elements on this point, because what you say seems strange to me, as well as what you declare previously on the “light”
ME: Biblical elements are always within the wisdom of God furnished by
the Holy Spirit to whom He pleases!
1 Corinthians 12:5 Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; 5And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord; 6And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all. 7And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.
8To one indeed, by the Spirit,
is given the word of wisdom: and to another,
the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; 9To another,
faith in the same spirit; to another,
the grace of healing in one Spirit; 10To another,
the working of miracles; to another,
prophecy; to another,
the discerning of spirits; to another,
diverse kinds of tongues; to another,
interpretation of speeches. 11But all these things
one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according
as he will.
Nevertheless, I WILL!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Berean,
You:I forgot, God was not alone, but with his Son The Word
John 1:1 “In the beginning WAS “THE WORD” and “THE WORD” was with GOD
and “THE WORD” was GODME: ONLY ONE GOD!
THEN GOD WAS ALONE!
THE FATHER AND THE SON YES!
I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE!
YOU SEE ME YOU SEE THE FATHER!
I IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN ME!
Pece and love in Jesus Christ
I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE!
If this unity proves Jesus is God, then you have to include the children of God.
I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one…
Carmel. Does Jesus invite us to become God? According to your rule, the answer would be yes. But clearly, the answer is no. “I and the Father are one” cannot mean that Jesus is God. It simply means unity. That he is one with God. The same unity that has been extended to his church.
Hi Carmel
Yes THERE IS ONE GOD, AND THAT IS THE FATHER OF JESUS AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST
AND SO IN THE BEGINNING THEY WERE TOGETHER.
THE SON WITH HIS FATHER.Amen
God bless
Proclaimer
I agree about unity …
But John 1:1 Say That “in the biginning THE WORD WAS GOD, NOT THE GOD, BUT GOD
WE CANNOT ERASE THIS
As we humans are of the humanity of our parents, so in the beginning the Son was of the divinity of His Father. John expresses it by simply saying: THE WORD WAS GOD.
PAUL SAID about HIM:
“the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,”and “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
God bless
But John 1:1 Say That “in the biginning THE WORD WAS GOD, NOT THE GOD, BUT GOD
WE CANNOT ERASE THIS
No one is trying to erase this.
But equally, you cannot erase the fact that the last mention of ‘theos’ lacks the definite article. This has huge implications on how you understand this verse.
The fact is all instances of ‘theos’ and ‘logos’ have definite articles in John 1:1-3 except the last mention of ‘theos’.
Listen to what a 2nd century scholar had to say about this. (184 AD – 253 AD.)
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)
“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article [“the”], and in some he omits it. He adds the article [“the”] to logos, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article [“the”], when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the logos is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article [“the], and theos without it, prevail also between logos with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As God who is over all is theos with the article [“the”] not without it, so also “the” logos is the source of that logos (reason} which dwells in every reasonable creature; the logos which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence “the” logos. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos (gods), and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny the divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that God on the one hand is autotheos (God of Himself); and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know You the only true God; “but that all beyond the autotheos (God) is made theos by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply “the” theos but rather theos. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos (gods) beside Him, of whom “the” theos is “the” theos, as it is written, “The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became (gods), for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made theos gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is ho theos (“the god”), and those who are formed after Him are (gods), images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the ho logos (“the word”) of ho theos (“the god”) , who was in the beginning, and who by being with “the” theos (“God”) is at all times theos (“god”), not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos, if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.
ME: “THEN AT A CERTAIN STAGE GOT CORRUPTED AND DELUGED FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME! Genesis 1:2”
You: Can you bring really biblical elements on this point, because what you say seems strange to me, as well as what you declare previously on the “light”
Me: THE MOST VITAL ELEMENT OF THE BIBLE IS
ITS SPIRITUAL concept!
Let’s start with the biblical elements in RELATION to the deluge:
Job 38: 1Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said :
2Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words?
3 Gird up thy loins LIKE A MAN: I will ask thee, and answer thou me.
From what perspective did God address Job above, first with verse 2, and then with the phrase “like a man”? God knew who in actual fact Job was, and for Him, Job was definitely a man in His own term, spiritual!
The fact that he was unique on earth!
4Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth ? tell me if thou hast understanding.
The above is a clear message that the foundations of the earth did not occur in Genesis 1:1, but before, as in Genesis 1:1 the earth was created, complete, and in full function!
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Upon what are its bases grounded? or who laid the cornerstone thereof,
7When the morning stars praised me together, and all the sons of God made a joyful melody?
8Who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth as issuing out of the womb :
The above verse is the first verse directed to THE SEA and it clearly says that the sea WAS BORN,
EXISTED FOR THE FIRST TIME:
AS ISSUING OUT OF THE WOMB!
BUT NOT BY GOD DIRECTLY, BUT BY ANOTHER, SUDDENLY, and UNEXPECTED, TO DESTROY THE EARTH, definitely not for God as he knows all things before they occur, so he allowed it to happen. The fact that God said:
Who shut up the sea with doors!
God prevented the sea from continuing its task, at least till God accomplished HIS TASK in that PARTICULAR moment in time! Psalm 18
9 when I made a cloud the garment thereof, and wrapped it in a mist as in swaddling bands?
10I set my bounds around it, and made it bars and doors :
11And I said : Hitherto thou shalt come, and shalt go no further, and here thou shalt break thy swelling waves.
AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL; God in the above confirmed that the sea was about to destroy earth but for a reason ONLY GOD KNOWS, He said enough is enough:
Hitherto thou shalt come, and shalt go no further,……
12 Didst thou since thy birth command the morning, and show the dawning of the day its place?
The above is the first time that God mentioned Job’s birth, but this for sure is not a reference to Job’s birth as a human, but as an angel, Lucifer!
All the above details regarding the creation of the world and especially the deluge is directed to Lucifer personified in Job!
from 12 we go to 21 as they are only a series of works by which God confirms that He was the TRUE creator! Lets’ read verse:
21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born?
God simply made Job AWARE THAT HE WAS IN EXISTENCE THEN, WHEN ALL THE ABOVE WAS DONE, asserted again by the following question!
or because the number of thy days is great?
ONE DAY IT’S LIKE A THOUSAND DAYS FOR GOD! NO?
HOW OLD WAS JOB IN THE TRUTH! OBVIOUS AS A SPIRIT BEING! AN ANGEL,
LUCIFER! THE BEGINNING, THE FIRST-EVER AND ONLY MORNING STAR, TILL JESUS CAME!
A clear reference to Lucifer!
God is talking to Job alright, but he used Job and directed His words to Lucifer, precisely in
THE HUMAN BODY OF MAN! Lucifer’s dream to be like the most high, first and foremost on this planet, with the aim to topple God in the universes! Read again now:
3 Gird up thy loins LIKE A MAN: I will ask thee, and answer thou me.
The MAN, the substance of Lucifer’s spirit, the old spirit of man, in the CORRUPTED flesh and blood. The fact that
JESUS GAVE US HIS BODY ON HIS RESURRECTION! Luke 22:19, 1Petere 1:3
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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