- This topic has 2,076 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Hi Mike,
You: You say that when God says He MADE the heaven and the earth in six days, it means something different to God CREATING the heaven and the earth in six days. Prove it
FIRST AND FOREMOST:
Where did I say THOSE PRECISE WORDS BROTHER MIKE!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike: You say that when God says He MADE the heaven and the earth in six days, it means something different to God CREATING the heaven and the earth in six days. Prove it.
Carmel: Where did I say THOSE PRECISE WORDS BROTHER MIKE!
Since my statement doesn’t include a direct quote of your words, a rational person would assume that I was paraphrasing what you said, and not writing the “PRECISE WORDS” that you used.
That being said, what is your current objection to my paraphrase? Are you now saying that you DON’T believe that “create” and “make” mean different things in the Bible? If so, great! That means you can finally answer my question honestly. Because the only “answer” you have thus far given is that the word “make” in Ex 31 is not associated with the word “create” in Gen 1:1. But now that that’s been settled, just answer the question directly and honestly…
Exodus 31:16-17… The Israelites must keep the Sabbath… for in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.
Carmel, please list for us the two specific things above that Yahweh Himself claimed to have made within the six days of creation. I’ve underlined them to make it easier for you.
Please list those two things for us now. Thanks.
Proclaimer: Hey Mike and Berean. People in the know understand that a day to God is not like a day to us.
We all agree that a day to God doesn’t have to be like a day to us. I think it’s safe to say that a God who knows the ending from the beginning is not constrained by the constant, consecutive passing of time as we experience it. Therefore, God can experience human days any way He chooses to.
There’s no rational or scriptural reason to assume that time would have to pass for God at the same rate it passes for us. It could go faster for God if He wants. It could go equal to our time if He wants. It could go slower for God if He wants.
I think that God can experience time as if our lives are the entire Seinfeld series on Netflix. He can watch the final episode before watching the first episode if He wants to. He can jump from season 3 to season 12 – and then back to season 1 in a flash if He wants to. In other words, he can be anywhere on our timeline any time He chooses. And not only that, He can watch certain parts at half speed, other parts at normal speed, and other parts at double speed.
That being said, I personally believe that God usually just watches everything play out on earth at the same speed we experience it. I have no reason to think otherwise, or to assume there is any benefit to God skipping forward to the end and just sitting there waiting for humanity to catch up to Him. I think He and those with Him in heaven watch time go by on earth just as we watch time go by on earth.
So since we all already agree that God isn’t bound to experience time as we do – and have all agreed on this from the beginning of this Genesis discussion – there is really no need for you to continually bring the same thing up over and over again – with the condescending implication that you are teaching us something that we didn’t know and already agree with.
I have a more productive way for you to spend your time instead of continually pontificating…
Exodus 20:9-11… Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God, on which you must not do any work… For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested.
You have claimed that the creation of heaven and earth in Genesis 1:1 is SEPARATE from the six days of creation. In the above scripture, Yahweh claims that the heaven and earth are INCLUDED in the six days of creation.
Proclaimer, how do you explain the discrepancy between what you claim and what Yahweh claims?
Will you bring yourself into alignment with what Yahweh claims – now that it has been shown to you in scripture?
Mike……Paraphrasing is exactly what you do with things that are clearly written that go against your reasonings. FACT IS Genesis 1, clearly indicates that the heavens and earth was already here, when God Started his , new beginning of this earth that once existed, and he destroyed the earth with all the animal kingdom that then existed, with water just as he did, in the days of Noah, there were Hugh animals that then existed and there was Grass, trees, and thousands of verious creatures on this earth, before he remade a New, as we have it today.
We have prexisting petrified trees that have turned to pure Cortez, that takes tens of thousands of years to happen , not a few days as your cloth teddy bear thing goes which anone can do with the proper Chemicals . Any archioligest knows that, we also have carbon dating , we have evidence that , the spread of light can be calculated the at the seed of light how our universe is expanding at a given rate, which also tell us how old it is.
Your limiting God and his ability down to a few days of creating everything in existence only shows me you lack of true knowledge. Just as your denying that we have a international space station, orbiting our earth giving us pictures 24/7, proving the earth is a round sphere. Not a flat earth as you preach.
There remains a sabbath rest unto the people of God, and it’s not a 24hr period, it a thousand years, and then God makes, “all” things new again. A NEW BEGINNING. THE FORMER THING ARE OVER.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Carmel
You :”GOD TRANSFORMED HIMSELF AND BECAME LIGHT AND COVERED THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE! “
Me
I don’t believe God told you that…
Where did you read that in the bible?
God covers himself with darkness, YES, FOR OUR GOD IS LIKE A DEVOURING FIRE (HEBREWS 12:29), AND THEREFORE HE IS VEILING HIS GLORY SO AS NOT TO DESTROY THOSE WHO CAME TO HIM ON MOUNTAIN SINAI.
SEE ALSO THE VISION IN DANIEL 7:[9] I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
[10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: a thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.To be continued After
God bless
Just when I got comfortable not having to copy every post before submitting it…
And I arrowed back multiple times to try to find the post I lost, but no luck. At least it wasn’t a really long one that took me an hour this time.
Proclaimer: I can let scripture teach me because I do not fix or limit things according to my own biases.
Really?
Exodus 20:9-11… Six days you shall labor and do all your work… For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them…
Letting the scripture teach you without any personal biases involved, is there any valid scriptural reason to think that one of the six day periods mentioned above is a different length of time than the other one?
If so, let’s hear what it is.
Proclaimer: In Revelation for example, we are told that “the day of His wrath has come“, but reading further in Revelation, we see his wrath and judgments spans a greater time period than 12 or 24 hours.
Correct. When we read statements like “the day of the LORD” or “in that day”, we often don’t know for sure if it will be a single day, or a longer time period of unspecified duration. Sometimes we have additional context to spell it out for us, but not usually.
Proclaimer: But you are stuck with 12 or 24 hours of God’s wrath. So your predefined doctrine affects your thinking on other subjects too.
That is incorrect. I am not “stuck” with anything. I have merely pointed out the scriptural FACT that each and every time in the entire Bible that God (not someone else, but God) talks about “day(s)” – and includes either “morning” and/or “evening”, or a specific NUMBER such as “one”, “two”, “three”, “four”, “five”, “six”, “seven”, etc – He is ALWAYS and WITHOUT EXCEPTION talking about literal 12 or 24 hour days.
Is there something about this very simple scriptural fact that you continue to not understand or something? Because you keep bring things up as if what I keep saying over and over is just not getting through to you. 🤔
The verse talking about “the day of His wrath” that you mentioned above is not God talking, nor does it contain “morning” and/or “evening”, or any specific NUMBER of days.
You can see that, right? You are able to see that “the day of His wrath” does NOT contain “morning” and/or “evening”, right? You can see that it’s not God talking, right? You can see that it doesn’t contain a specific NUMBER of days, right?
And since it does NOT contain any combination of these things, it is not included in the scriptural fact that that I have shown you repeatedly, right? And that means I am NOT “stuck with 12 or 24 hours of God’s wrath”, right? 🤔
Proclaimer: To be a scholar or serious student of God’s word Mike and Berean, you need to not only understand patterns in scripture, but also be able to decode the symbols, the terms, and the times. I think you have seriously failed at this.
Well, you are of course free to think whatever you want to think. But keep in mind that I’m the one who has to keep repeatedly telling you about the pattern and terms in the scriptures that always and without exception indicate literal 12 or 24 hour days, right? And you’re the one who can’t seem to refute (or even fully grasp) what I’m teaching you, right?
Proclaimer: And this is exacerbated by your complete lack of scientific understanding Mike. Your misconceptions in science has crossed over to biblical studies and has affected and permeated through your understanding of scripture to the point that you are not teaching the truth anymore IMO.
Science and the Bible are perfectly aligned. Actual science has no conflict with God creating heaven and earth in six literal days 6000 years ago. If the Scientism to which you subscribe does have a conflict with that, then it is YOUR misconceptions that YOU’VE allowed to cross over to Biblical teachings and corrupt your understanding of the scriptures. And of course this is exacerbated by YOUR complete lack of true scientific understanding, Proclaimer.
ISAIAH 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?
13And thou saidst in thy heart:
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God,
I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north.
14I will ascend above the height of the clouds,
I will be like the most High.
Hi Mike,
You: Isaiah 14 doesn’t support your claim that there was a previous heaven/earth that was perfect.
Me: Mike, I said
….. AND AT A CERTAIN MOMENT IN TIME BECAME CORRUPTED!
HINTED OUT IN
Isaiah 14….
I am more than convinced that you know the meaning of “hinted out” more than I do!
Then after Isaiah above, I said:
NOTICE Mike, it says:
AND YOU SAID IN YOUR HEART…….!
Again you know what the above statement
clearly declares indirectly, regarding the state of Lucifer?
and that is, that this angel,
THE ANOINTED ONE was created PERFECT and became corrupted!
Confirmed hereunder:
Ezekiel 28: 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
TILL INIQUITY was found in thee.
Now Mike you know that our world was not created PERFECT, you know also that Adam was not created perfect! RIGHT!
From this it is more than clear that Lucifer existed in another world WELL before this one and was
PERFECT AS MUCH AS LUCIFER AND ALL THE HEAVENLY REALMS/CREATURES ALSO WERE PERFECT!
DEFINITELY CREATED BY GOD EX-NIHILLO IN GENESIS 1:1 Confirmed in these scriptures AGAIN in a particular way INDIRECTLY hereunder:
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou HAST BEEN in Eden the garden of God;….
Genesis 2:8And the Lord God HAD PLANTED a paradise of pleasure
from the beginning:
Notice, the tense in the above scriptures is PRESENT PERFECT! We use this tense to indicate a link between the present and the past.
So the actions in the above scriptures commenced, and occurred in the past!
Now let’s read
ECC. 1:9 What is it that hath been? the same thing that shall be. What is it that hath been done? the same that shall be done.
10Nothing under the sun is new,
neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new:
for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.
Answer Mike, IF NOTHING UNDER THE SUN, IS NEW!
EVERYTHING ALREADY OCCURRED BEFORE WITHOUT THE SUN!
Also asserted in
2Peter3:5 For this they are willfully IGNORANT of,
that the heavens were before, (Genesis 1:1)
and the earth out of water, and through water,(Genesis 1:2) consisting by the word of God.,
You:
You say the first heaven/earth was without stars, but then quote a part of Isaiah 14 where the protagonist is exalting his throne above the stars of God.
MIKE, that’s right, there were no stars like we know them now?
ON THE OTHER HAND, I NEVER MENTIONED OR REFERRED TO
THE STARS OF GOD!
WHO ARE ANGELS, OF WHOM LUCIFER WAS UNIQUE AS
THE MORNING STAR!
LUCIFER REFERRED TO HIS DELUDED STATE,
LIKE THE MOST HIGH.
You: (And how exactly does someone try to place their throne “above the stars of God – on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the North” in the heliocentric model of the universe?
What would that even mean?
Where exactly would such a throne be located? Where is this mountain in the far reaches of the North that rises above the stars of God?
Hi Mike… are YOU ready for the longest NOVEL I EVER WROTE ON HEAVEN NET?
You: Um… no. I beg of you, please… have mercy on us all! Don’t do it, man!
Fine I won’t!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!
Reading the above verse we are for sure that GOD BEFORE CREATION WAS ON HIS OWN
Wrong. God created Jesus and the other gods (you call them angels) BEFORE the creation event of Genesis 1.
Job 38:4-7… Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation… while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Proverbs 8:22-23… The LORD created me as the beginning of his works… before the world existed.
Hi Mike,
You: Since my statement doesn’t include a direct quote of your words,
Me: PLEASE POST THE DIRECT QUOTE OF MY WORDS!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Proclaimer: “We’re just waiting for one time in the entire Bible where God talks about a specific NUMBER of days, but isn’t talking about literal 12 or 24 hour days.”
Correct. Have you found one yet?
Proclaimer: I’m not sure, but there might be this one time in Genesis where day one, day two, etc is mentioned…
You already have a pending question about why you would think those days were any different than all of the other NUMBERED days God talks about in the Bible. I’m awaiting your response.
Proclaimer: Most other days that are mentioned tend to be after the creation of man too. But Genesis 1 days are mostly before man was created.
And? Are you suggesting that if God had created the world in something other than the six days He told us, God would be unable to convey these longer time periods to Moses and his contemporaries?
Proclaimer, if God had created the world in six extremely long time periods of varying lengths, why would He call all of the time periods by the same term?
And why “days” – knowing that humans would understand Him as saying He created the world in six literal days?
And where does OUR conception of a “day” even come from? Isn’t it the time span between “morning” and the next “morning” – the start of light until the next start of light?
And isn’t that the same time span that God called a “day” even before man was created?
And doesn’t the sun govern our “days” today? Isn’t the time span between the sun coming forth and the sun coming forth the next time a “day”? And wasn’t the sun already doing that before man was created?
You have no legs to stand on, Proclaimer. And we could have gotten to ALL of these things within the first few days of the Genesis discussion if you had been willing to just have an honest back and forth without all of the diversions and pontification and avoidance of direct, honest questions.
Of course you’ll just ignore the points above like you ignore all the other ones. But that’s to be expected from a prideful person who has been mercilessly brought to his knees. Don’t worry… I’m not going anywhere. You WILL address these things eventually.
Proclaimer: So days for God are like a thousand years. Simple stuff.
Why do you always only claim one part of it?
2 Peter 3:8… a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day.
It works both ways, Proclaimer. It’s saying that a single day (for us) is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years (for us) is like a single day to the Lord.
Ellicott’s Commentary puts it quite nicely…
What is insisted on is simply this—that distinctions of long and short time are nothing in the sight of God; delay is a purely human conception.
See that? Distinctions of BOTH long AND short times. You want it to ONLY be saying that a day to God is like a thousand years for us. You forget that it also says that a day to us is like a thousand years for God.
So although how God experiences time has nothing to do with what God means when He speaks to humans about days, if you insist on bringing this metaphor into the discussion, then you have to accept the possibility that the six days of creation were, in reality, literal 24-hour days that merely seemed like 1000 year periods to God.
Me Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!
Reading the above verse we are for sure that GOD BEFORE CREATION WAS ON HIS OWN
You: Wrong. God created Jesus and the other gods
ME: FOR A START, JESUS WAS/IS “THE WORD” OF GOD AND WAS NEVER CREATED AS A SPIRIT, AD-INTRA! DIVINE!
NEVERTHELESS, IF ACCORDING TO YOU GOD CREATED JESUS AND OTHER ANGELS,
WHAT DO YOU CALL THAT IF NOT
THE BEGINNING OF CREATION!
Thus, for sure, GOD BEFORE CREATION WAS ON HIS OWN!
(you call them angels) BEFORE the creation event of Genesis 1.
JESUS ALSO DID SO!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Gene: FACT IS Genesis 1, clearly indicates that the heavens and earth was already here, when God Started his , new beginning of this earth that once existed, and he destroyed the earth with all the animal kingdom that then existed, with water just as he did, in the days of Noah…
Sorry Gene, but I can’t read any of this in scripture – because it simply doesn’t exist anywhere in the Bible. You are simply making things up about a previous earth and a previous flood. As for Genesis 1 “clearly indicating” that the heaven and earth were already here…
Exodus 6:11… For in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them…
You say that the heaven and earth were already in existence BEFORE the six days of creation. Yahweh says that those two things are INCLUDED in the stuff He made during the six days of creation.
Who is right? You or Yahweh?
You already have a pending question about why you would think those days were any different than all of the other NUMBERED days God talks about in the Bible. I’m awaiting your response.
It’s real simple Mike. But maybe you missed it.
- A day to God is way longer than a day to us. You have forgotten this or are ignoring it intentionally.
- Even a day according to man has two values depending on the context, 12 hours and 24 hours. So it is not one fixed value.
- Scripture demonstrates that there are days in God’s timetable that are not 24 or 48 hours, but much longer. Thus we now have a third value and more.
- In the Genesis account of days, this is God was creating before man existed for the most part. And the Sun wasn’t in existence according to you, (I disagree). So why would a day where God is creating be measured by the sun when man is not yet in existence. And worse for you, when the sun isn’t even there. It makes no sense. Do not forget, that a day to God is like a thousand years. Or a long long time.
- The only evidence you can provide to override this being a day in God’s timetable is that the days are numbered and communicated to man. Sorry, but that rule was made up out of thin air. I could invent a rule too, but that wouldn’t make it true. It could mean that I was just trying to twist something toward my own biases. And that rule was invented based in one part of scripture? Lol. For a start, days are communicated to man in scripture that are clearly not solar days. That leaves the numbering of the days. This is not only a weak argument, but it no argument. Think for a minute. If the day of wrath last longer than a solar day, and we have another day after that say the Day of Blessing (just an example), then by calling it day one and day two suddenly means the 24 hour rule kicks in? What a load of croc.
- Science shows us an amazing universe that God created. We have satellites beaming images back and telescopes showing us the heavens in their glory. The conclusion is that the creator has eternal nature and is way beyond anything man can do. He is not like us. Not even next level. The distances and times are beyond you mind.
- Genesis doesn’t have to disagree with much of science, particularly astronomy, geology, etc. But you force it to disagree because you do not believe in science. Thus, your science belief has affected your biblical belief an closed your mind. When you have an option, you choose the option that disagrees with science, whereas I believe it likely agrees with much of it and observation, but still admit that a day can be any length of time.
Carmel: PLEASE POST THE DIRECT QUOTE OF MY WORDS!
No. If the search function on this site wasn’t useless, I’d have found that quote in less than a minute. As it is, I spent 25 minutes trying different search terms that included “Gen 1” and “Ex 31″… and nothing.
Same thing earlier to answer Gene’s accusation that I hadn’t addressed his Adam and Eve point. I searched the very specific “dying you shall die” – which I know for a fact that I used in my response to Gene… but nothing.
I also think your direct quote was about 6 or 7 pages ago, but unfortunately this site doesn’t allow you to just type in a page number to get you in the general vicinity. You have to go back one page at a time, wait for it to load, and then scroll to the bottom to go back another page. Over and over. It’s insanity and I refuse to waste time working hard to achieve something that should be able to be accomplished very easily.
So, all things being as they are, you are left with either searching for your original quote yourself or simply answering the simple direct question in the 2nd post of this page. Just so you know, your PRECISE WORDS (😂) won’t change anything – because I still need you to either directly answer that question, or leave me alone.
I’ve grown tired of people pontificating novels in post after post, when they could just use 10 words and directly answer a simple question that was specifically asked of them.
Carmel: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!
Reading the above verse we are for sure that GOD BEFORE CREATION WAS ON HIS OWN
Mike: Wrong. God created Jesus and the other gods [before Genesis 1:1]
Carmel: IF ACCORDING TO YOU GOD CREATED JESUS AND OTHER ANGELS, WHAT DO YOU CALL THAT IF NOT THE BEGINNING OF CREATION!
The creation of Jesus WAS the beginning of creation… as is clearly taught in Proverbs 8:22. But as anyone can see from the above, you clearly implied that before Gen 1:1, God was on His own. He was not. He was with Jesus and the other gods that He created before He created the heaven and the earth. Those gods sang and shouted for joy WHEN the events of Gen 1 occurred.
Mike: …(you call them angels)…
Carmel: JESUS ALSO DID SO!
Wrong again. “Angel” is an English word. Both the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated as “angel” simply mean “messenger”. When the “messenger” in question is deemed by the English translators to be a spirit entity, they use the English word “angel”. The scriptures call these ones “sons of God”, “demons”, “messengers” and “gods”.
If you ever get confused about this, read the verse in the Young’s Literal Translation – as he uses the correct “messengers” throughout – and never once uses the English word “angel”.
Proclaimer: In the Genesis account of days, this is God was creating before man existed for the most part. And the Sun wasn’t in existence according to you, (I disagree). So why would a day where God is creating be measured by the sun when man is not yet in existence. And worse for you, when the sun isn’t even there. It makes no sense.
When was the very concept of a “day” created?
Genesis 1:3-5… And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God…separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
So the very first day consisted of the separation of light from darkness. The first day began as darkness, then moved to light, and then to darkness again. Our days do the same thing now. They start at midnight (darkness), move through the light portion (daytime), and end at the return of the next midnight (darkness). The very first day (and all Hebrew days since) begin at evening, move through morning and daytime, and end on the following evening when the next day begins. So the same as us except the start/end point is evening for them, and midnight for us.
Okay, so God created the concept of “days” on the very first “day”. But you think these first “days” were somehow different than days today, right? Keep reading…
Genesis 1:14-19… And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to…serve as signs to mark…days… God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day… God set them in the firmament of heaven to…govern the day and the night… And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
So God made the greater light (the sun) to govern the day and to mark out days. Not to create new days that lasted a different amount of time – but to govern and mark out the days that had already been created and occurring from the moment God created light and made the first day.
Let’s work it backwards…
- Sunset to sunset (or night to the next night) is one day for us now.
- Sunset to sunset (or night to the next night) was one day before man was created.
- Night to the next night was one day before the sun was created.
You have no valid reason to assume that any of the days before man was created were any different (in length of time) than all the days since man was created.
Proclaimer: Do not forget, that a day to God is like a thousand years. Or a long long time.
AND… a thousand years to God is like a single day to us – a very SHORT time. But either way, the metaphor is irrelevant to what God means when He speaks about any particular number of days to humans. Time to put that one back in the holster, Barney Fife. You’ve already fired the one bullet that was in your shirt pocket anyway – and you missed by a mile. That pistol is of no more use to you now. 😉
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
