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Hi Mike,
Carmel: MIKE WHAT MAKES YOU SURE THAT THE WORDS “LIGHT” and “DARKNESS” WERE IN ACTUAL FACT ONLY LITERALLY SO?
You: I have no valid reason to think otherwise.
THE VALID REASON IS THAT WE ARE ANALYZING GOD’S WORK AND HIS MYSTERIES! Mr. Mike!
Genesis 1: 2And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made.
You: There was darkness over the face of the deep, and then God created light.
Me: Mike, reading the above, GOD DIDN’T PRECISELY CREATED LIGHT!
GOD SAID “BE LIGHT MADE” AND LIGHT WAS MADE!
NOT CREATED! OK?
Genesis 2:3 And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work
which God created and made.
Reading the above, IT CLEARLY SAYS that God not only created things but also MADE THINGS. WHEN READING SUCH TERMS WITHIN THE CONCEPT OF SCRIPTURE WE MUST REFLECT, WE ARE NOT ANALYZING A MERE STORY FROM A PAPERBACK. GOD NOT ONLY SPEAKS AND REFERS TO HIS PHYSICAL WORK BUT IN THE SAME INSTANT HE ALSO DOES SO IN RELATION TO HIS SPIRITUAL WORK, PLUS THAT HE ALSO TELLS US THINGS ABOUT HIM.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable
You: So what is there in the words of Genesis to make anyone think
this wasn’t typical light and typical darkness?
I made it clear IN MY POST IMMEDIATELY AFTER I ASKED THE QUESTION YOU POSTED BUT YOU LEFT IT OUT!
I said:
GOD IS LIGHT
THE DEVIL IS DARKNESS!
5And he called the light Day,
and the darkness Night; …..
OK, Mike?
God called THE LIGHT day and DARKNESS night! NOW READ:
1John1:5 And this is the declaration which we have heard from him, and declare unto you:
That God is light, and in him there is no darkness.
From the above, we are aware that
GOD IS LIGHT and in Him, THERE’S NO DARKNESS!
So we can conclude that DARKNESS in the above is a reference to EVIL/DEVIL/SATAN! NO?
Luke 33:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, you did not stretch forth your hands against me:
but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
SATAN IS DARKNESS NO?
Now going back to Genesis 5
God called the light Day,
and the darkness Night;
Thus within this TERM: God is day and Satan is Night!
You: I mean, Satan isn’t called “night”, is he? And God isn’t called “day”, right?
NO WRONG!
You: So the bottom line is that there’s no reason for me to take the Hebrew words as some mysterious message,
ME: AND HOW THERE IS!
when it seems clear enough that it’s talking about regular light, regular darkness, regular days, and regular nights.
NOT WHAT IT SEEMS CLEAR, BUT WHAT IT REALLY IS CLEAR!
4And God saw the light that it was good; and
Mike, are you in the position to EXPLAIN
WHAT KIND OF LIGHT GOD CREATED ACCORDING TO YOU!
he divided the light from the darkness.
ALSO, EXPLAIN HOW DID GOD DIVIDE THIS LIGHT FROM DARKNESS?
BY THE WAY, JUST READ HEREUNDER THOUGH AND SEE
MORE THAN CLEAR
WHAT KIND OF LIGHTS (PLURAL) GOD CREATED HERE, WHILE IN Genesis 1:3 IN THE SINGULAR HE SAID:
Be light made. And light was made.
And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven,
to divide the day and the night,
and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years: 15To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done.
16And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars.
17And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth. 18And to rule the day and the night, and
to divide the light and the darkness.
And God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and morning were the fourth day.
I WONDER WHAT THE WORDS
“EVENING AND MORNING WERE THE FOURTH DAY ” ARE REFERRING TO APART FROM THE WAY WE KNOW THEM, THEY ARE WRITTEN ENIGMATICALLY AFTER ALL!
For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Not only that, God separated the light from the darkness to create “day” and “night”.
Carmel: Reading the above, IT CLEARLY SAYS that God not only created things but also MADE THINGS.
Isaiah 43:7… Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
In the above, God said He created, formed, and made everyone that is called by His name. Do you think that all three words refer to something completely different that God did?
Anyway, I don’t.
Now back on topic…
Please tell me WHY do you believe the heaven and Earth were not included in the six days of creation – in light of the fact that God says they are in Exodus 20 and in Exodus 31.
Peter’s statement has no bearing on our discussion, because we’re not talking about how God experiences days, but about what God means when He talks to humans about a certain number of days.
But man wasn’t created either. And you place the sun on day 4. Yet somehow, it is 24 hours despite the text not even saying so. Makes perfect sense Mike, not.
But I get it. You are saying it’s 24 hours because God is revealing this to man, so that is how we would understand it. But that is not a rule is it. The rule is determined by the context, and the days of creation are when God was creating before man even existed. Worse for you is that insist that the sun wasn’t even created. So how do you get 24 hours from that? You don’t. Simply put, then, these days are when God existed without man so that is the context. Now for the rule:
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Do not forget this one thing Mike.
Proclaimer: But man wasn’t created either.
But man had been created and experiencing 24-hour days (with an evening and a morning) for 2500 years by the time God related the creation account to Moses, right? So my point (as attested by the entire Bible) stands that any time God speaks to humans about a certain number of days, He is ALWAYS talking about 12 or 24 hour literal days.
Proclaimer: And you place the sun on day 4. Yet somehow, it is 24 hours despite the text not even saying so.
Why you keep saying the same old stuff that’s been scripturally refuted over and over? (I know why. 😉) But once again, it is not ME who places the sun on day 4. It is Yahweh. Yahweh is the One who said that He made the sun and the stars – and set them in the firmament of the heaven – on day 4.
It was also Yahweh who told us that He created “days” on the first day – the day He created the heaven, the earth, and light. So yes, Yahweh told Moses that there were three DAYS before He created the sun and the stars. And what’s the Biblical rule (without exception) about God talking to humans about a certain number of days? They are ALWAYS either 12 or 24 hour days.
Now add to that the fact that, once again, it was Yahweh who told humans to work for six days and rest on the seventh because He worked for six days creating the heaven, the earth, the sea and all that is in them and rested on the seventh. (Ex 20 and Ex 31) And what’s the Biblical rule (without exception) about God talking to humans about a certain number of days? That’s right… they are ALWAYS either 12 or 24 hour days.
Proclaimer: But I get it. You are saying it’s 24 hours because God is revealing this to man, so that is how we would understand it.
Yes. If God took ten thousand years to create plants, then God would have revealed this to man by saying He did it in ten thousand years. But instead He revealed to man that He created both dry land and plants in one (a number) day (therefore a 12 or 24 hour period).
Proclaimer: But that is not a rule is it.
Yes, that is indeed absolutely the rule. Any time in the Bible where God talks to humans about a certain number of days, they are 12 or 24 hour days.
Proclaimer: Worse for you is that insist that the sun wasn’t even created.
Round and round and round we go… like a broken record. Proclaimer, WHO is the one that told us the sun was made on the fourth day? WHO is the one that told us there were three days before the sun was made?
Proclaimer: Now for the rule:
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Do not forget this one thing Mike.
I won’t forget Peter’s metaphorical message to encourage those who were falling away from the faith because they felt salvation was taking too long. It has also encouraged me many times thousands of years later.
Don’t you forget this one thing, Proclaimer: How God may or may not experience our earth days has zero bearing on our discussion. The rule for our discussion is that any time in the Bible God speaks to humans about a certain number of days, the days are always 12 or 24 hour literal days. No exceptions – including when God talked to humans about the six (a certain amount) days (therefore 12 or 24 hours) of creation.
Now, if you want to suggest that Genesis 1 is the ONLY exception to that rule in the scriptures, then you’re going to have to offer a compelling reason. (This is one of the 6 questions you have ignored.)
Saying that humans weren’t around at the time of the creation doesn’t negate the fact that Yahweh called them “days” (complete with an evening and a morning) when revealing the info to humans, who understand “days” as 12 or 24 hours – and would have zero reason to suspect that God was calling them “days” when He really meant they were 6 one billion year periods or whatever. “Hey Moses, I created the earth in one hour – (by which I really mean 14 billion years but I won’t tell you that part).” 🤣😂 WHY would God do that? (A seventh question for you to answer now.)
Also, claiming that the days couldn’t have been 24 hour periods without the sun is simply pulling something out of thin air. WHY couldn’t they have been 24 hour periods without the sun? (An eighth question for you to answer now.)
So now we’re waiting for DIRECT answers to 8 direct questions – and one second witness where God talked to humans about a certain amount of days, but didn’t mean 12 or 24 hour regular days.
But man had been created and experiencing 24-hour days (with an evening and a morning) for 2500 years by the time God related the creation account to Moses, right? So my point (as attested by the entire Bible) stands that any time God speaks to humans about a certain number of days, He is ALWAYS talking about 12 or 24 hour literal days.
Was God alone in the context of the following verse? No.
Did man exist in the context of the following verse? Yes.
The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt …”
So why is it not a day of 12 or 24 hours?
That makes six questions and one request for a second witness…
Did that last request. Here it is again.
The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt …”
Mike…….Have you ever looked up what the meaning of the word “create” means in the original Hebrew language . From what I have read it means “to spread abroad” or fatten, in fact there exists no Hebrew word for created according to some Hebrew scholars, like Jeff Beener. In his book “the mechanical translation of Genesis”. Even man was formed from what already prexisted , the dust of the earth.
Mike, Even when you look at the way God said it, ” let the earth bring forth the grass and herb yelling seed after his kind, is said , it is as if it had existed before at another time, so, did God destroy this earth before and cover it with water again and kill off all life that what was on this earth before, and then start with another beginning that we read about in Genesis?
Now if you took it that way, then Gen 1:1 , would say “in the beginning God spread the heavens and the earth , which makes sense and agrees with the big bang “theory ‘. Anyway I believe there may just be a lot we still don’t know yet. MODERN SCIENCE IS DISCOVERING MANY THINGS THAT AGREE WITH OUR SCRIPTURES MORE AND MORE EVERY DAY, AND IT DOSEN’T “disagree with our scriptures” .
Peace and love to you and yours Mike………gene
Mike: So my point (as attested by the entire Bible) stands that any time God speaks to humans about a certain number of days, He is ALWAYS talking about 12 or 24 hour literal days.
Proclaimer: Was God alone in the context of the following verse? No.
Did man exist in the context of the following verse? Yes.
The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt …”
So why is it not a day of 12 or 24 hours?
Because God does not include a NUMBER. For example, if God had said, “The FIRST day of your building the walls…” and “On the TWENTIETH day people will come…”, He’d be talking about literal days.
Gen 7:4… For after seven days, I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights…
In the above, we know that the first “days” are 24-hour days, because God included the number “seven”. We know that the second “days” are 12-hour days because God included the number “forty” – AND juxtaposed “days” to “nights”.
This is the kind of second witness I’m looking for. Here’s another example…
Exo 29:37… For seven days you shall make atonement for the altar and consecrate it; then the altar shall be most holy, and whatever touches the altar shall be holy.
God including the number “seven” means they are seven literal days. Here’s another…
Numbers 11:18-20… Therefore the LORD will give you meat, and you will eat. You will eat it not for one or two days, nor for five or ten or twenty days, but for a whole month—until it comes out of your nostrils and makes you nauseous—because you have rejected the LORD, who is among you, and have cried out before Him, saying, ‘Why did we ever leave Egypt?’
See all those numbers? They signify normal days. And remember the account of the walls of Jericho?
Jos 6:2-4… But the LORD said to Joshua… you shall march around the city, all the men of war circling the city once. You shall do so for six days… then on the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets.
Again, the specific numbers tell us that these are literal days. So applying what we’ve learned here, how would we understand the following…
Exodus 31:15-17… For six days work may be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD… for in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.
We can see the specific numbers associated with the words “day” and “days”, right? We know that means God is referring to literal days, right? We also know that the Sabbath occurs once every seven literal days, right? And we know that God said men should work six days and rest on the seventh BECAUSE He created for six days and rested on the seventh, right?
There is no Biblical reason to suggest that the time period God call “six days” of work for the Israelites would be any different than the time period God call “six days” of creation. In fact, there are dozens of Biblical reasons to suggest that any time God includes a certain number with the word “days”, He is ALWAYS talking about literal days. (I’ve only listed 3 of them above.) And then add to that the fact that each of God’s “six days” of creation included a single evening and a single morning!
It’s over. You’ve lost. It never really was a debate to begin with. It was three people just pointing out what the Bible actually says, and two people trying their best to distort what it says. Scientism and the Bible will NEVER align. You’ll have to make your own choice which of them you hold in higher authority.
But while I’ve got you and Gene here… According to Yahweh’s own words in the passage above, what two things are INCLUDED in the six days of creation? Name them for us, and then explain again how they are SEPARATE from the six days. 😉
Gene: …did God destroy this earth before and cover it with water again and kill off all life that what was on this earth before, and then start with another beginning that we read about in Genesis?
I have no valid reason to even ponder such a thing. The question is WHY you would. I know the answer: Scientism
Gene, perhaps it’s time to start taking the written word of God as your ultimate authority, and only believe those things of science that align with it. For example, the fossil record clearly supporting a worldwide flood, and DNA/population mathematics supporting human beings only being around for 6000 years. Those are things that true science supports and that align with the scriptures.
Start reading about science on sites like Answers in Genesis, Creation Ministries International, and Institute for Creation Research. All of these organizations are filled with brilliant scientists who left great, high-paying jobs in Scientism because they realized that the actual data supports the Bible, not big bang/deep time/evolutionism.
They post stories on brand new scientific discoveries all the time. Just click on one of the websites and start reading…
https://ncse.ngo/creationist-websites
Anyway, I’ve ended my previous post with a question for you, Proclaimer, and Carmel. You’ve ignored it three times already. I’m sincerely hoping that you’ll give us a direct answer this time.
@ Proclaimer
Does the Bible teach that the sun was MADE and PLACED in the firmament of the heaven on day four of creation? Yes or No?
Hi Mike,
Carmel: Reading the above, IT CLEARLY SAYS that God not only created things but also MADE THINGS.
Isaiah 43:7… Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.In the above, God said He created, formed, and made everyone that is called by His name. Do you think that all three words refer to something completely different that God did?
Anyway, I don’t.
IN THE ABOVE YOU SIMPLY COMMITTED YOURSELF AND IGNORED
THE POSSIBILITY OF THE TRUTH!
I MYSELF BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE A REFERENCE TO SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!
LET’S ANALYZE PRECISELY THROUGH YOUR QUESTION HEREUNDER!
Now back on topic…
Please tell me WHY do you believe the heaven and Earth were not included in the six days of creation – in light of the fact that God says they are in Exodus 20 and in Exodus 31.
Mike, to be precise!
ONLY Genesis 1:1 says:
1In the beginning
God created heaven, and earth. ….
GENESIS 1:2 IS NOT A BEGINNING IT IS THE STATE OF THE EARTH AFTER THE BEGINNING OF GENESIS 1:1
GOING BACK TO GENESIS 1:1 WE HAVE THE WORD
BEGINNING!
TO ME IT IS THE VERY FIRST EVER BEGINNING!
THE BIG BANG! IT IS THE MOMENT GOD EMANATED THE ENDLESS SPIRITS AND ENLIGHTENED THEN THE ENTIRE EXISTENCE!
IN LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT SCRIPTURE SAYS IN:
I King 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
NO NOVELS!
THEN WE HAVE God CREATED heaven, and earth. ….
NOW WE CAME TO YOUR FAMOUS QUESTION regarding the words CREATED, FORMED and MADE!
Here we have the word “CREATED”!
To me with the word CREATED, heaven and earth are COMPLETED, IN FULL FUNCTION and IN
GOD’S HARMONY!
GOD DOESN’T CREATE SOMETHING NOT PERFECT AND NOT COMPLETE! NO?
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void;
and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Above Mike, THREE WORDS IN RELATION TO OUR AIM ARE MOST PROMINENT AND VITAL!
WHICH YOU COMMITTED YOURSELF AND IGNORED BEFORE ANALYZING PROPERLY SCRIPTURE! SO THE WORDS ARE
WITHOUT FORM and DARKNESS!
MY QUESTION IS!
If in Genesis 1:1 GOD CREATED HEAVEN AND EARTH, AND THEY ARE PERFECT AND COMPLETE!
HOW THE HELL EARTH IN GENESIS 1:2 IS
STILL WITHOUT FORM YET!
SCRIPTURE:
Genesis 2:7And the LORD God FORMED man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
GOT IT, Mike?
GOD FIRST AND FOREMOST
FORMED MAN! HE DIDN’T CREATED MAN INSTANTLY, THOUGH HE COULD HAVE DONE! FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT GOD FORMED MAN FROM THE SLIME OF THE EX-CORRUPTED EARTH! THE FACT THAT CREATION OF GENESIS 1:3…. TOOK A HELL OF A TIME NOT A MERE SIX DAYS!
IN GENESIS 1:1 GOD CREATED OUT OF NOTHING, OUT OF HIS SPIRIT, ALL PERFECT!
Let’s cont.
THEN HE breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul. MADE SINCE HE WAS ALREADY FORMED, AND WE TAKE CREATED AS EX NIHILO!
THE MAN SOMEHOW, WAS NOT YET ALIVE, OBVIOUS SPIRITUALLY, WHEN HE WAS FORMED, HE WAS JUST LIKE A BEAST! AFTERWARD, HE WAS MADE
THE DIFFERENCE
FORMED, MADE, CREATED!
SO THE MAN WAS IN A DIFFERENT STATE, NOT YET PERFECT, BUT VERY GOOD, WHEN HE WAS FORMED, WHY?
THE EARTH ALSO SOMEHOW BECAME IN A DIFFERENT STATE IN GENESIS 1:2 SINCE IT IS YET
WITHOUT FORM, NOT YET MADE SINCE IT WAS ALREADY CREATED IN GENESIS 1:1!
NOT YET EVEN
IN ITS BEGINNING!
THE NEW BEGINNING AFTER the beginning of GENESIS 1:1!
THESE TWO BEGINNINGS ARE MENTIONED IN John1:1-2
WHICH WAS COMPLETE AND IN FULL GOD’S HARMONY, LOST ITS PERFECTION, AND BECAME CORRUPTED!
THUS WE ARE NOW AWARE OF WHAT THE WORD
DARKNESS IS REFERRING TO Mr. Mike!
APART FROM THE NATURAL DARKNESS, THE EARTH WAS IN!
You:
In the above, God said He created, formed, and made everyone that is called by His name. Do you think that all three words refer to something completely different that God did?
Anyway, I don’t.
NOW with respect to your question above WE HAVE THE WORD
MADE/MAKE to analyze properly!
You: Now back on topic…
Please tell me WHY do you believe the heaven and Earth were not included in the six days of creation – in light of the fact that God says they are in Exodus 20 and in Exodus 31.
Mike hereunder is the scriptures to be analyzed regarding the word
“MADE/MAKE” WHICH INCLUDE EXODUS 20 and EXODUS 31
BUT NO NOVEL FOR NOW, THAT WILL BE IN THE NEXT POST!
IN THE MEANTIME HAVE A GO YOURSELF AND TRY TO SEE WHAT I SEE!
AT LEAST I DON’T HAVE TO POST A NOVEL!
Exodusn20:11 For in six days the Lord
made heaven and earth,…..
Exodus 31:17 For in six days the Lord
made heaven and earth,…..
Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man
to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over
the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air,
and the beasts, and the whole earth,
and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:27And God created man
to his own image: to the image of God he created him:
male and female he created them.
And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it,
and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Because God does not include a NUMBER. For example, if God had said, “The FIRST day of your building the walls…” and “On the TWENTIETH day people will come…”, He’d be talking about literal days.
I see. So when day is mentioned in scripture, then it can be any length depending on context. But when the days are numbered, then it switches to 12 or 24 hours. No question. Lol. Did it not occur to you that you use multiple days because stages do not always come in ones. sometimes there is a stage 2, 3, 4, 5 and so on. This is a fact Mike. Lol.
Anyway, the only differences with your wall analogy, is that it can be built in a matter of hours, so you would assume a solar day if you said it would be ready in a day. But if I said a world empire would arise and last for 3 days, then it might actually mean 3 generations, or other time period. If I said, a peace treaty would be signed for a week, it might means 7 years. If I said, back in the antediluvian day, that would refer to centuries or millennia.
So when God is building the cosmos as opoosed to you building a wall, then there is no reason to believe that it has to be 12 or 24 hours. And the fact that you even have 2 options (12 and 24 hours), demonstrates nicely the changing nature of the time period built into the meaning of ‘yom’ which then is clarified by the context.
Your stated rule that it can be any length except when it says day 1, day 2 etc is unproven. You just made that up on the spot to get you out of a pickle. No one is buying that explanation. It is not well thought out and no serious student or scholar would entertain your idea unless you backed it up with some evidence of some kind.
Anyway, God can transform earth into a habitable planet in stages / days and they are not required to be 12 or 24 hours long. And your the one who should be arguing this all the more, since you believe the sun wasn’t even created yet. For most of it anyway.
Does the Bible teach that the sun was MADE and PLACED in the firmament of the heaven on day four of creation? Yes or No?
It says:
And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky.
If I said to you I built a car and then later on I said to you, “let there be car lights”, would you think that I created the car lights there and then, or that I was turning them on? Would I melt sand at that point to create glass and wire these up to the battery? Or would I be just turning the lights on later on after the car was created?
Then when I turned the lights on and said, I created these lights, would that mean also mean that I created these lights there and then because they turned on? Or would it just mean that I was letting you know that I created them and now I am turning the lights on.
Carmel: HE REBELLED AND FLOODED THE EARTH! THE MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING!
PSALM 18! WHERE DAVID WAS THE ONLY ONE SAVED
You: Yahweh flooded the earth, and Noah and his family were the only ones saved in the ark.
ME: EXPLAIN HOW THE WORLD WAS TOTALLY SUBMERGED IN Genesis 1:2
Now read and explain: by the way do not include scriptures as part of my novel please,
THEY ARE GOD’S MYSTERIOUS NOVELS!
Psalm 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
7Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
8There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
9He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
10And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
11He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
12At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
13The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
14Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
15Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
16He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
17He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.
18They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
19He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike: Does the Bible teach that the sun was MADE and PLACED in the firmament of the heaven on day four of creation? Yes or No?
Proclaimer: It says:
And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky.
Genesis 1:16-19… God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well. God placed these lights in the firmament of the heaven… And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
Again… Does the Bible teach that the sun was MADE and PLACED in the firmament of the heaven on day four of creation? Yes or No?
Just answer the question as it was asked, thank you.
As for your silly car light analogy, nobody would say about someone who simply turned on car headlights that were already made and placed in the front grill, “He made the headlights and placed them in the grill”.
As for your silly argument in the first place (regardless of any analogies you might concoct), consider…
Genesis 1:6-8… And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
It is the same language. Will you now claim that the firmament also already existed, and the words “God made the firmament” really refer to God flipping a switch that made the firmament (that had already existed) start separating waters?
Stop with the nonsense pontification and just DIRECTLY answer the bolded black question above.
Proclaimer: I see. So when day is mentioned in scripture, then it can be any length depending on context. But when the days are numbered, then it switches to 12 or 24 hours… You just made that up on the spot to get you out of a pickle. No one is buying that explanation. It is not well thought out and no serious student or scholar would entertain your idea unless you backed it up with some evidence of some kind.
This is from a 2010 article by Dr. Terry Mortenson, PhD…
Everywhere else in the Old Testament, when the Hebrew word for “day” (יוםֹ, yom) appears with “evening” or “morning” or is modified by a number (e.g., “sixth day” or “five days”), it always means a 24-hour day.
On Day Four God further showed that these were literal days by telling us the purpose for which He created the sun, moon, and stars—so we could tell time: literal years, literal seasons, and literal days.
Then in Exodus 20:8–11 God commanded the Israelites to work six literal “days” and rest on the seventh because He created in six “days” (using the same Hebrew word).
There is no biblical or scientific reason to be ashamed of believing in a recent six-day creation. God has spoken clearly and truthfully. Will you trust His Word over the arrogant claims of sinful men?
https://answersingenesis.org/days-of-creation/six-literal-days/
So no, I didn’t just make this up to get out of a pickle. All those years I was gone from HN were spent on a different Bible discussion forum, where I and Dig4Truth spent years researching and discussing anything and everything to do with Scientism… big bang, fossil record, stellar evolution, planetary evolution, uniformitarianism, Darwinian evolution, DNA and the many micro-machines that fill our bodies, etc.
Like I told you earlier (after the hundredth time you told me science isn’t my strong point), “I’ve forgotten more about the stories told by Scientism than you’ll ever learn in the first place.” That is a true statement. I just don’t waste time showing off my knowledge every single time you pretend to win an argument by copying and pasting some new Scientism story that you don’t even understand.
I’ve known for many years about the fact that every time God ever uses the word day(s) in the entire Bible and includes “evening/morning”, or any particular number, it is ALWAYS referring to literal 12 or 24 hour days. There are no exceptions, and I’ve encouraged you to search for yourself and find a second witness to your claim that Genesis 1 is an exception… despite using both numbers and evening/morning.
You have yet to find such a witness, and will never be able to do so. And that leaves us with what the scriptures actually teach (including many other witnesses AND the logic that it would be absurd for God to tell humans He did something in a day when He really meant a billion years) versus your unsubstantiated and unsupported claim out of thin air that the days in Genesis aren’t literal days. And why do you make that claim? Because you simply WANT that to be the case. And WHY do you WANT that to be the case? Because Scientism has told you something other than what the Bible has told you. It’s as simple as that.
So go back and re-read the last paragraph from Dr. Terry Mortenson, PhD above… especially the very last sentence. Let it sink in. You, Gene and Carmel are exactly the kind of people he’s asking. How do you answer? 🤔
Carmel: ONLY Genesis 1:1 says: 1In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. ….
GENESIS 1:2 IS NOT A BEGINNING IT IS THE STATE OF THE EARTH AFTER THE BEGINNING OF GENESIS 1:1
Exodus 31:15-17… For six days work may be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of complete rest… for in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.
Carmel, please tell us the two things in the passage above that Yahweh Himself said He made within a six day period.
Gene, please tell us the two things in the passage above that Yahweh Himself said He made within a six day period.
Proclaimer, please tell us the two things in the passage above that Yahweh Himself said He made within a six day period.
It’s not that tough, guys. It’s an easy question, and I’ve even underlined the answers for you. Please for once just DIRECTLY answer the question. Thanks.
Everywhere else in the Old Testament, when the Hebrew word for “day” (יוםֹ, yom) appears with “evening” or “morning” or is modified by a number (e.g., “sixth day” or “five days”), it always means a 24-hour day.
First problem we have here is day and night. If it is always 24 hours, then there is no time for night in the verses where both day and night are mentioned.
Ignoring that, it would make sense to all the verses when man existed and applied to man that a day would be that time period because that is a day for us. But a day on Mars is called a sol. It is a different amount of our hours. But God dwells in heaven. Why would the sun and earth dictate time to him?
You cannot impose that on God.
As mentioned before however, when it is talking about us and our days here on this planet, (the fact that we have 2 options, 12 or 24 hours), shows that it is not exactly the same every time. So even if you accept only a day applied to men spoken by men, then you still have more than one option to choose from even given that.
But we know that a day to God is LIKE a thousand years. What would be like forever for us. But is merely a day to God. Do not forget this. God is an eternal being. He is patient too. His judgement might come 300 years later than our expectation of next week or within a year or two. His time is not our time. His ways are not our ways. He is not a man.
God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night.
Correct. He made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them.
And He made the stars as well.
Indeed.
God placed these lights in the firmament of the heaven…
Yes, that is the action. He placed them in the vault or firmament. The view is from the surface of the waters now. It is not an overarching view of the whole cosmos. The text says that God created the heavens and the earth and that his Spirit was hovering over the deep. So start looking from that view. Look up at the vault. You will see the sun, moon, and stars. That fits if the atmosphere cleared and allowed light through the atmosphere.
Now let’s imagine my name is John Britten and I created a motorbike including all the parts myself.
Imagine just before race day, I turn on the lights and say, “let there be light”. Then I said, that I created this motorbike. Would that mean that I created the bike at that moment because I mentioned it then? The only thing that is happening right now is I am turning the lights on at that moment from the bike that I created. Further, I told you before that I created the bike, so why would you believe that I was talking about that very moment?
Similarly, if I read from page 4 of an autobiography and said that I wrote this book for this or that reason. Would that mean that the book was written at the moment when page 4 was typed, or when I read page 4?
Gen 7:4… For after seven days, I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights…
This is nothing like the time when man didn’t exist and God did things. Imposing 24 hours is stupid IMO. God is not a man. And do not forget, that a day is not like a day to us. It seems much longer. How long would a thousand years be to your mind? A really long time is what it is saying.
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